Gun control ... actual question

[Ishmael]

Our cousin, an ex-USN medic volunteering aid work in rural Guatemala, met a beautiful local nutritionist from an upper-middle-class family. We flew down for the spectacular wedding. The bride's BFF was Honduran-Texan, going to college in Boston. She said she felt nervous in Boston because there weren't enough guys with shotguns standing around watchfully.

This was about a decade after the brutal civil war ended. Lots of guys who'd been fighting in the hills suddenly needed jobs; security guard was a common gig. Guys with shotguns guarded everywhere: stores, estates, pickups loaded with empty bottles. If it was valuable, it was guarded.

We loved Guatemala and drove there from the states a few times. Each time, we saw fewer armed guards. That was the marker that life was improving.

Anyway, the irony: Some feel safest with no guns around, and some when armed guards are everywhere. I was in Mexico City in 1974 when civil unrest put armed troops on every street corner and halfway down each block. I'm not sure if I felt more or less secure there.

I fail to see your point in this anecdotal exercise.

Ishmael

 

[Que]

Quoted to display my irritation

Neither you, nor the fictional Skiddles, who is allegedly behind all of these offensive puppets would be the least bit irritated, unless I was on the mark.

 

[Richard_P_Feynman]

Neither you, nor the fictional Skiddles, who is allegedly behind all of these offensive puppets would be the least bit irritated, unless I was on the mark.

Uh huh.

You neglected to mention how, by virtue of your ability to discern author's voice, you were oh so certain that I was King Orfeo, dumbass.

I've always maintained that despite your ability to string together words, you were actually quite ill-informed. Thanks for demonstrating my point so brilliantly.

 

[Que]

Uh huh.

You neglected to mention how, by virtue of your ability to discern author's voice, you were oh so certain that I was King Orfeo, dumbass.

I've always maintained that despite your ability to string together words, you were actually quite ill-informed. Thanks for demonstrating my point so brilliantly.

You occasionally start one of these sock puppets by borrowing words and phrases from other posters convincingly. Which makes sense because that's what you do in life. With your borderline personality disorder you've been forced to go through life mimicking others to sound normal.

Inevitably for some reason "Skiddles" always devolves into sounding exactly like Rob once you lose what little self-control that you possess. He doesn't ever accidentally devolve into sounding like someone else. Rob. Always Rob.

As if you aren't odious enough on your cleaned-up branded image.

 

[KimGordon67]

Oh, clearly not. She has her fully-formed worldview as do I.

The only thing that I've ever seen change anybody's perspective on guns is to actually handle and shoot them. I think a lot of people have a visceral reaction to them based on fear and the fear dissipates when they learn to see them as the inanimate, dangerous objects that they are. It's not that I don't think that intellectually they understand that they are in fact inanimate objects but I think on some sort of primal level you have to fire one to understand.

It's like you often see on the back of jeeps. "It's a Jeep thing. You wouldn't understand."

Speaking of which I happened upon another customer in a Napa Auto Parts up in Wickenburg who mentioned that he had recently inherited a couple of CJ2A's that he was looking to get rid of.

I don't really have a problems with guns per se. I'm more interested in the culture around ownership, etc, and ways in which the issues that seem inherent with that might be addressed.

 

[KimGordon67]

I fail to see your point in this anecdotal exercise.

Ishmael

S'OK - I understand what Hypoxia is saying.

 

[thør]

I don't really have a problems with guns per se. I'm more interested in the culture around ownership, etc, and ways in which the issues that seem inherent with that might be addressed.

Culture?

 

[Que]

I don't really have a problems with guns per se. I'm more interested in the culture around ownership, etc, and ways in which the issues that seem inherent with that might be addressed.

Nothing inherent in American's love of guns is related to our culture of violence other than as you point out that resulting in more guns available for those that do want to act out violence.

When you talk to criminals with long histories of crime, they aren't fascinated with guns themselves particularly. They don't shoot particularly well they don't practice with them and they really can't it's not like you can just show up at a gun range and risk running into your probation officer. They don't live in areas where you can get out into the boonies and shoot to your heart's content.

From all accounts, the Vegas Shooter was a neophyte. He obviously read and researched a bit about guns to know that for example the technique he was using would overheat barrels which is why he brought several more guns than you would think necessary to his snipers nest. He wasn't a part of American Gun culture. I don't think you can blame anyone but him but if anything I would assume he would be influenced by American Media culture more than anything.

 

[Ishmael]

I don't really have a problems with guns per se. I'm more interested in the culture around ownership, etc, and ways in which the issues that seem inherent with that might be addressed.

Why do you assume there's a 'culture' beyond the fact that the MSM has declared it so? Is there a 'house culture?' How about an automobile culture?

The mere fact of owning an inanimate object does NOT a culture make. The reasons for that ownership are as diverse as society at large itself.

So your, and the media's, attempt to pigeon hole gun owners into some little segment of society isn't doing much to deal with the problem honestly. Why don't you call us all homophobes, racists, or whatever else your little mind can come up with?

Ishmael

 

[KimGordon67]

Why do you assume there's a 'culture' beyond the fact that the MSM has declared it so? Is there a 'house culture?' How about an automobile culture?

The mere fact of owning an inanimate object does NOT a culture make. The reasons for that ownership are as diverse as society at large itself.

So your, and the media's, attempt to pigeon hole gun owners into some little segment of society isn't doing much to deal with the problem honestly. Why don't you call us all homophobes, racists, or whatever else your little mind can come up with?

Ishmael

Sorry, probably should have said 'cultures'. No, not everything has a culture attached to it, but lots of things do. (I'd actually say cars do, and really in the current age which is marked by an obsession with home improvement/real estate/etc shows/websites/magazines, etc there is a house culture.)

I barely even know what MSM is.

As someone noted way above, Switzerland has pretty low levels of gun regulation ... and (as I recall the post) low levels of gun ownership. The 'guns in one third of American households' stat is pretty widely dissemenated, and no one in here as argued against it. I'd say that indicates a culture/s of gun ownership in some shape or form.

 

[Bidin~Time]

Culture?

Oh don't play coy. The culture...you know...where on the full moon, gun owners gather to run naked through the woods to a predetermined site where there's a huge bonfire and dance til the break of dawn.


What?

 

[Que]

Oh don't play coy. The culture...you know...where on the full moon, gun owners gather to run naked through the woods to a predetermined site where there's a huge bonfire and dance til the break of dawn.


What?

You left out the part about lubing up and stroking our guns. . .

 

[KimGordon67]

Oh don't play coy. The culture...you know...where on the full moon, gun owners gather to run naked through the woods to a predetermined site where there's a huge bonfire and dance til the break of dawn.


What?

Is there tequila? Because if there's tequila, I could be down with that.

 

[Bidin~Time]

You left out the part about lubing up and stroking our guns. . .

Well, hell, you might just as well tell them the secret handshake and password, now. <harumpphhs at you>

 

[Bidin~Time]

Is there tequila? Because if there's tequila, I could be down with that.

There MIGHT be, but that would be tmi.

 

[Ishmael]

Sorry, probably should have said 'cultures'. No, not everything has a culture attached to it, but lots of things do. (I'd actually say cars do, and really in the current age which is marked by an obsession with home improvement/real estate/etc shows/websites/magazines, etc there is a house culture.)

I barely even know what MSM is.

As someone noted way above, Switzerland has pretty low levels of gun regulation ... and (as I recall the post) low levels of gun ownership. The 'guns in one third of American households' stat is pretty widely dissemenated, and no one in here as argued against it. I'd say that indicates a culture/s of gun ownership in some shape or form.

MainStream Media.

I suppose in this age of media overcharge it's easy to think that just because programs like "Flip This House" or any of the myriad of niche market venues are some how significant. They aren't significant at all. They're nothing more than staged reality shows, 90% drama with 10% instructional value.

The same goes for what poses as 'news.' Read any article or watch any 'news' show. Strip the opinion from fact and 700 words become 25, 30 minutes become 5. The inability of the public to apply critical thought to the various issues confronting the nation distresses me. If your priority is your uterus, of that someone owns a gun, or that minimum wages have to be raised.........I'd suggest that you are in dire need of reassessing your priorities.

Ishmael

 

[KimGordon67]

MainStream Media.

I suppose in this age of media overcharge it's easy to think that just because programs like "Flip This House" or any of the myriad of niche market venues are some how significant. They aren't significant at all. They're nothing more than staged reality shows, 90% drama with 10% instructional value.

The same goes for what poses as 'news.' Read any article or watch any 'news' show. Strip the opinion from fact and 700 words become 25, 30 minutes become 5. The inability of the public to apply critical thought to the various issues confronting the nation distresses me. If your priority is your uterus, of that someone owns a gun, or that minimum wages have to be raised.........I'd suggest that you are in dire need of reassessing your priorities.

Ishmael

Thanks for explaining to me how 'reality shows' and mainstream news work ... who knew! I'm shocked. And mortified. Shocked and mortified. I really thought they were real ... I so pleased I know better now.

 

[Weird Harold]

I don't really have a problems with guns per se. I'm more interested in the culture around ownership, etc, and ways in which the issues that seem inherent with that might be addressed.

One problem with trying to identify "culture" or "cultures" around gun ownership is that each and every gun owner has unique reasons for owning one or more guns. Likewise, each and every gun opponent has unique reasons for opposing ownership of guns.

For example, my support of gun ownership is part and parcel of a larger opposition to "there oughta be a law" thinking that creates more criminals than it deters. Far too many proposed laws restricting gun ownership and/or use do nothing except make formerly law abiding citizens criminals based on purely cosmetic distinctions of firearms or accessories.

Likewise, Drugs are recategorized or otherwise restricted because some few criminals misuse them or use them as source materials to make other drugs.

Pseudoephedrin (decongestant) is an example; it is the one decongestant that is effective for my chronic congestion, yet I can only buy it by allowing the government to track my purchase and use. The people using it as a base for making Meth aren't deterred by the tracking, they just recruit homeless types to buy it for them. All the changed classification does is inconvenience legitimate users.

I'm opposed to gun control on the basis that there are no proposals for gun control that will actually address the issues; or worse they create new criminals by creating new "crimes."

I'd like to see some proposals that address the issues of poverty, gangs, mental health care, over-crowding, discrimination, depression, stress, or any of the multitude of other issues that contribute to anti-social behavior and criminal violence -- regardless of the choice of weapons.

There is no single solution to America's problems -- of which gun violence is just one symptom.

The War on Drugs generates profits for drug dealers and gun violence over sales territories. Inject some sense into that problem and reduce the unintended consequences. (eg legalize drugs and spend the money saved educating and treating drug users.)

Restrictions and quotas on immigration lead to "coyotes" and "wetbacks" and completely un-controlled and un-vetted immigration. Not a big contributor to "gun violence" but a fairly substantial contributor to various kinds of criminal behavior. (If you can't get a job legally, how do you survive?)

The first test of any new proposal should be, "Will this actually address the problem?" Most new laws or proposed laws fail that test.

 

[KimGordon67]

One problem with trying to identify "culture" or "cultures" around gun ownership is that each and every gun owner has unique reasons for owning one or more guns. Likewise, each and every gun opponent has unique reasons for opposing ownership of guns.

For example, my support of gun ownership is part and parcel of a larger opposition to "there oughta be a law" thinking that creates more criminals than it deters. Far too many proposed laws restricting gun ownership and/or use do nothing except make formerly law abiding citizens criminals based on purely cosmetic distinctions of firearms or accessories.

Likewise, Drugs are recategorized or otherwise restricted because some few criminals misuse them or use them as source materials to make other drugs.

Pseudoephedrin (decongestant) is an example; it is the one decongestant that is effective for my chronic congestion, yet I can only buy it by allowing the government to track my purchase and use. The people using it as a base for making Meth aren't deterred by the tracking, they just recruit homeless types to buy it for them. All the changed classification does is inconvenience legitimate users.

I'm opposed to gun control on the basis that there are no proposals for gun control that will actually address the issues; or worse they create new criminals by creating new "crimes."

I'd like to see some proposals that address the issues of poverty, gangs, mental health care, over-crowding, discrimination, depression, stress, or any of the multitude of other issues that contribute to anti-social behavior and criminal violence -- regardless of the choice of weapons.

There is no single solution to America's problems -- of which gun violence is just one symptom.

The War on Drugs generates profits for drug dealers and gun violence over sales territories. Inject some sense into that problem and reduce the unintended consequences. (eg legalize drugs and spend the money saved educating and treating drug users.)

Restrictions and quotas on immigration lead to "coyotes" and "wetbacks" and completely un-controlled and un-vetted immigration. Not a big contributor to "gun violence" but a fairly substantial contributor to various kinds of criminal behavior. (If you can't get a job legally, how do you survive?)

The first test of any new proposal should be, "Will this actually address the problem?" Most new laws or proposed laws fail that test.

You could kind of say that about anything ... we all have 'our own' reasons for doing anything. But the fact that large numbers of us do the same thing, and often the 'us's' are particular sorts of people, tends to suggest there are usually larger forces in play in shaping those decisions - cultural, economic, etc. The mere fact that the level of gun ownership is so much higher in the US than a lot of other western states is an example of that - you have a culture in which gun ownership is, to some extent, normalised. There is also, within that, a subculture which is pretty vehement in their protection of the right to gun ownership. Outside that population of gun owners is another subculture of people who are pretty vehement in their opposition to gun ownership and/or their desire for great regulation.

I tend to be in agreement that there are other factors which explain that culture, as you outline. And the War on Drugs didn't really seem to be very effective. So that didn't work. Locking up a large chunk of the black population doesn't seem to be working. Maybe it is time to try something new.

At a general level, yes, there isn't 'one solution' ... but so often, when I start really digging into issues, the underlying problem seems to be poverty. When I first started this thread, I thought it was probably gun control, but I'm not so convinced now.

 

[Hypoxia]

S'OK - I understand what Hypoxia is saying.

Thanks. My point is that if much of the populace is armed and dangerous, private and state security will be ramped-up -- and the rest of the populace will depend and expect security, likely provided by strongman. Worry and sweat if no teams with assault rifles are nearby. Hire bodyguards to walk you to the armored bus. Check your pistol at the church door. Hope security is tight at the lunchroom.

Another anecdote: We heard of a spiffy stylish rural shopping compound in northern Honduras fairly near our lodging in Copan. We drove our weathered Ford Exploder through the countryside to the access road - and security fence - and guard post - and sign ordering visitors to hand all weapons to the guards. Yow. The shopping sucked, too.

That could be the USA gun culture soon. Assume many to be armed. Assume you'll have to check your weapons at the gate to access many sites. Assume you'll always feel vulnerable in public. Always.

Is this the future we want for our families?

 

[Ishmael]

You could kind of say that about anything ... we all have 'our own' reasons for doing anything. But the fact that large numbers of us do the same thing, and often the 'us's' are particular sorts of people, tends to suggest there are usually larger forces in play in shaping those decisions - cultural, economic, etc. The mere fact that the level of gun ownership is so much higher in the US than a lot of other western states is an example of that - you have a culture in which gun ownership is, to some extent, normalised. There is also, within that, a subculture which is pretty vehement in their protection of the right to gun ownership. Outside that population of gun owners is another subculture of people who are pretty vehement in their opposition to gun ownership and/or their desire for great regulation.

I tend to be in agreement that there are other factors which explain that culture, as you outline. And the War on Drugs didn't really seem to be very effective. So that didn't work. Locking up a large chunk of the black population doesn't seem to be working. Maybe it is time to try something new.

At a general level, yes, there isn't 'one solution' ... but so often, when I start really digging into issues, the underlying problem seems to be poverty. When I first started this thread, I thought it was probably gun control, but I'm not so convinced now.

Jesus Christ, back on the 'culture' trip. I don't suppose that it ever occurred to you that it's because we can. Because the government doesn't have the means to pass a law to make it safe for them to take our other freedoms away.

Look at the UK. They disarmed their populace and now they're regulating free speech. What is the next domino to fall in the governments relentless drive to control all aspects of their lives? It's all about control, of your life, my life. The selling of the notion that the government knows best and will take care of you. Four thousand years of recorded history put lie to that thought.

The government cannot make you safe from anything. Shit, they can't even build a road anymore.

Ishmael

 

[mark_j]

At a general level, yes, there isn't 'one solution' ... but so often, when I start really digging into issues, the underlying problem seems to be poverty. When I first started this thread, I thought it was probably gun control, but I'm not so convinced now.

Please read nypost.com/the-depressing-truth-about-gun-control. Written by Leah Libresco formerly of fivethirtyeight.com. While the NY Post article is an opinion piece, it is in reference to a fivethiryeight series Gun Deaths in America. If you read that series it lists where the statistics in the series are referenced as well as the the companion articles.

It's interesting reading without all the hyperbolic rhetoric used in most mainstream articles and might give you a different insight into the issue.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Jesus Christ, back on the 'culture' trip. I don't suppose that it ever occurred to you that it's because we can. Because the government doesn't have the means to pass a law to make it safe for them to take our other freedoms away.

Look at the UK. They disarmed their populace and now they're regulating free speech. What is the next domino to fall in the governments relentless drive to control all aspects of their lives? It's all about control, of your life, my life. The selling of the notion that the government knows best and will take care of you. Four thousand years of recorded history put lie to that thought.

The government cannot make you safe from anything. Shit, they can't even build a road anymore.

Ishmael

Did I not warn you that there is no talking to this one?

How many hard-core idiots have come out of NZ on this board?

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

http://reason.com/archives/2017/10/08/overcoming-confirmation-bias-on-guns

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Here's an echo of something that I already noted about "common sense" gun laws and the people whom had never even heard of bump stocks:

House Speaker Paul Ryan (R – Wis.) said Thursday, "I didn't even know what they were until this week, and I'm an avid sportsman. Apparently, this allows you to take a semiautomatic and turn it into a fully automatic, so clearly that's something we need to look into." Rep. Bill Flores (R – Texas), a gun-owner, told The Hill, "now that I've studied up on what a bump stock is — I didn't know there was such a thing — there's no reason for it."

Predictably, talk of a ban has made bump stocks one of America's fastest selling gun accessories. "Oh, God, yes, it's been insane," one Texas gun store owner told CNN Money. "Since this story has broke, we've been getting about 50 people a day asking for them." Another from Maine said that he had five bump stocks gathering dust for months, before a post-Vegas buying spree saw them all snatched them up.

The buying blitz has overwhelmed bump stock manufacturer Slide Fire Solutions. Operating out of the tiny town of Moran, Texas (pop. 270), Slide Fire has done steady business since founder Jeremiah Cottle first set up shop in 2010. A post-Vegas surge in demand, however, has forced the company to suspend taking new orders. If the political winds keeping blowing the way they do, Slide Fire might never take any new orders.

No one seems more mystified by the sudden enthusiasm for bump stocks—from both gun nuts and gun grabbers—than gun store owners. Because bump stocks sacrifice accuracy for speed hunters, sportsmen, and most other enthusiasts have little need for them, some experts say.

"I've always thought these bump stocks were just a novelty," Andrew Wickerham, owner of the 2nd Amendment Gun Shop in Las Vegas, told The Christian Science Monitor. "They're not that good, and they're hard as hell to control."

http://reason.com/blog/2017/10/06/a-prospective-bump-stock-ban-shows-how-d