Las Vegas shooting

[Colonel Hogan]

Regarding your projection about what "posters" like me would say if the Vegas shooter had been a Moslem, my belief is that ready access to weapons of war has become a national health crisis, especially with a bunch of paranoid people running round and getting revved up in virtual reality. I don't care if it is a religious nut (of any type), an ideological nut (of any type), or if you just lump all of these mass killers into the category of the mentally ill.

To begin with, gun control proponents like yourself should give more thought to how much of the problem is due to "ready access" and how much is due to mass killers being religiously, ideologically or generically mentally ill.

Since I don't think there is much evidence that MOST (or even a few) mass killers have traditionally committed their crimes within brief periods of having first procured their weapons, whether legally or illegally, I'm going to go with "mentally ill."

And if we could agree that that is the problem, how do you suggest we go about solving it? But before you respond, let me tell you what you're up against.

You're up against a legal right to own a firearm. And in the case of the mentally ill, that right can only be taken away if the person is legally adjudged to be mentally ill or involuntarily confined to a mental institution or found not guilty of a crime by reason of mental incompetency, etc. In short, there has to be an official legal process by which the mental illness is demonstrated.

Isn't that what you would want for yourself before YOUR rights are taken away?

Most treatment for physical disability, including mental illness, is responsibly handled within families. People get treatment. Measures are taken. Children take car keys from parents no long able to drive. Few people wait for the DMV to step in at license renewal time.

The problem is how do you expect or wish for the government to act where adequate family care is either non-existent or dysfunctional? A myriad of private and public social welfare programs are designed to do exactly that and, for the most part, appear to function largely as they are designed to function. How would you improve on their number and efficiency to treat mental health care issues that are not being adequately treated, and how many, if any, cases that slip through the cracks and result in a tragic homicide, including a mass shooting, would you nonetheless be willing to recognize as NOT a legitimate indictment of our having DONE all that we can be reasonably expected to do?

These are the questions I almost NEVER hear gun control proponents attempt to answer.

Perhaps you'll give it a go.

 

[BotanyBoy]

We're going after easy answers and easy solutions here...

No sense in talking about the real problems. The echo chambers don't want to allow it.

We need ALL money out of politics. Set up a system where people are given a small budget to run, and let them run on their merits.

The problem is also that people want a spectacle. People magazine, or a mass shooting, it doesn't matter.

Not to mention how do you convince a bunch of congress critters to shoot their own cash cow??

It's the only place you can go make 180k a year with full bennies and be a millionaire in months.

 

[richard_daily]

Regarding your projection about what "posters" like me would say if the Vegas shooter had been a Moslem, my belief is that ready access to weapons of war has become a national health crisis, especially with a bunch of paranoid people running round and getting revved up in virtual reality. I don't care if it is a religious nut (of any type), an ideological nut (of any type), or if you just lump all of these mass killers into the category of the mentally ill.

Speaking of projections... can you tell me what made civilian-legal firearms "weapons of war"?

Weapons of war, even on the small-arms end of the spectrum are select-fire, full-auto, and restricted in every state.

There has never been a mass killing using these alleged "weapons of war".

If you're going to invent terminology, you're going to be seen as being dishonest.

 

[richard_daily]

Not to mention how do you convince a bunch of congress critters to shoot their own cash cow??

It's the only place you can go make 180k a year with full bennies and be a millionaire in months.

It takes the voters demanding it.

Or we could keep going around in circles, arguing about the topics that those in power want us to argue about...

The choice is ours.

 

[BotanyBoy]

It takes the voters demanding it.

But they will send the "I've been here fucking the public for 30 fuckin' yearz!!!" crowd for more expecting a new result.

LOL

Or we could keep going around in circles, arguing about the topics that those in power want us to argue about...

The choice is ours.

All must serve the cycle.....

 

[KUJACK]

CVS exec was right

She said that most country fans were republicans
The shooter wanted to kill them for their political beliefs

 

[BotanyBoy]

She said that most country fans were republicans
The shooter wanted to kill them for their political beliefs

It would be pretty sweet if he turned out to be a social vengeance warrior.

 

[phrodeau]

She said that most country fans were republicans
The shooter wanted to kill them for their political beliefs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGEija0CRhA

 

[snugglestruggle]

It would be pretty sweet if he turned out to be a social vengeance warrior.

It wouldn't matter because Guns Bad, SJW good!

 

[butters]

nothing, nothing about this mass murder can be found 'sweet'

whatever his reasons, this man murdered 58 people, injured almost another 490

that's anything but sweet

 

[richard_daily]

It would be pretty sweet if he turned out to be a social vengeance warrior.

Gross.

 

[BotanyBoy]

It wouldn't matter because Guns Bad, SJW good!

Always the case with the hardcores.

The middle will always squish around though.

Gross.

*shrug* it's a team sport reality man....he's going to belong to some crowd and they are going to take the heat. Identity politics demand that the entire demographic at least suffer the scorn for his actions.

That being said since he's already shit on a team I just hope it's on the team I dislike the most which is the social vengeance idiots.... and the Raiders of course.

If they found a bunch of social justice/socialist shit and Raiders gear that would be awesome.

 

[lickitandstickit]

Always the case with the hardcores.

The middle will always squish around though.



*shrug* it's a team sport reality man....he's going to belong to some crowd and they are going to take the heat. Identity politics demand that the entire demographic at least suffer the scorn for his actions.

That being said since he's already shit on a team I just hope it's on the team I dislike the most which is the social vengeance idiots.... and the Raiders of course.

If they found a bunch of social justice/socialist shit and Raiders gear that would be awesome.

https://youtu.be/r5CTKlF45Ds

 

[coati]

To begin with, gun control proponents like yourself should give more thought to how much of the problem is due to "ready access" and how much is due to mass killers being religiously, ideologically or generically mentally ill.

Since I don't think there is much evidence that MOST (or even a few) mass killers have traditionally committed their crimes within brief periods of having first procured their weapons, whether legally or illegally, I'm going to go with "mentally ill."

And if we could agree that that is the problem, how do you suggest we go about solving it? But before you respond, let me tell you what you're up against.

You're up against a legal right to own a firearm. And in the case of the mentally ill, that right can only be taken away if the person is legally adjudged to be mentally ill or involuntarily confined to a mental institution or found not guilty of a crime by reason of mental incompetency, etc. In short, there has to be an official legal process by which the mental illness is demonstrated.

Isn't that what you would want for yourself before YOUR rights are taken away?

Most treatment for physical disability, including mental illness, is responsibly handled within families. People get treatment. Measures are taken. Children take car keys from parents no long able to drive. Few people wait for the DMV to step in at license renewal time.

The problem is how do you expect or wish for the government to act where adequate family care is either non-existent or dysfunctional? A myriad of private and public social welfare programs are designed to do exactly that and, for the most part, appear to function largely as they are designed to function. How would you improve on their number and efficiency to treat mental health care issues that are not being adequately treated, and how many, if any, cases that slip through the cracks and result in a tragic homicide, including a mass shooting, would you nonetheless be willing to recognize as NOT a legitimate indictment of our having DONE all that we can be reasonably expected to do?

These are the questions I almost NEVER hear gun control proponents attempt to answer.

Perhaps you'll give it a go.

Colonel,

Thank you for engaging me with a constructive tone.

I know my view is not popular among many of the self-described gun experts and 2nd Amendment promoters on this board, but ready access to guns that can kill many people rapidly has become a significant threat to public safety. I believe we do need to draw a more reasonable line on which guns are available to the general public and which guns are reserved for our military and law enforcement entities.

We have a public health responsibility to distinguish between guns that can protect an individual citizen from a home intruder or a mugger on the street, and guns that are designed to mow down a whole lot of people rapidly. The latter I would classify as weapons of war that should not be made available to the general public in stores, shows, and private sales throughout this country.

Right now there is a huge market for rapid fire assault weapons among the general public, and gun manufacturers have responded to this market. This creates a ready access situation that is further complicated by the issues you cited related to the mentally ill and the potentially mentally ill. Additionally, the public now knows that the semi-automatic assault weapons are easily convertible to something similar to a machine gun. In my opinion, six-shot guns should be the limit for the general public, as it was for much of our history.

This really has to do with what sort of society we want to have. I know people will jump on this post and some of them will be nasty, but I still think we as a society could be doing a much better job at drawing the line on which guns and accessories are available to the general public.

Thanks again for your constructive tone,
Coati

 

[Aglaopheme]

We're going after easy answers and easy solutions here...

No sense in talking about the real problems. The echo chambers don't want to allow it.

We need ALL money out of politics. Set up a system where people are given a small budget to run, and let them run on their merits.

The problem is also that people want a spectacle. People magazine, or a mass shooting, it doesn't matter.

Apparently so.

I could get behind getting all money out of politics, but there is a strong push right now with United to Amend to remove big money.

 

[milehighcityman]

Apparently so.

I could get behind getting all money out of politics, but there is a strong push right now with United to Amend to remove big money.

How do you get "big money" out of politics? What is the goal of this?

 

[LizVegas79]

As someone who lives and works in the casino business in Las Vegas it has become ever so clear to me that this country is absolutely obsessed and craves porn.

But not the kind of porn we joke about, tease each other about and look at here on Lit.

No, I'm talking about the mass media marketing of murder and mayhem.

This time it was in Las Vegas and close to me.

Last week it was the hurricanes.

The week before that the guy with the knife in London. The week before that, the attacks and violence in Spain. Whenever there isn't a civilian tragedy to droll over there's always war footage in Syria, Afghanistan or somewhere else to take our minds off what's really happening in the world and what really needs to be done.

It just goes on and on and on.

I truly believe we have become a nation that markets and feeds upon the suffering of others in order to mask and/or completely avoid whatever is going on - or should be going on - within ourselves.

It's four days since the shooting. It will remain the only thing anyone can talk about and the top story on every single news program morning, noon and night UNTIL .... UNTIL the next awful thing happens.

I swear it literally has become mass market death and destruction porn.

Personally, I'll take a few naughty PM's from guys who want to suck my toes and jerk off all over my feet, or a few pics of two women kissing/getting intimate with each other, or gif's of dicks exploding their liquid ecstasy (I just heard that one day - love it!) all over themselves or some lucky girl any day of the week over the murder porn that's swamping my hometown at the moment.

The truly sad thing is that I bet by this time next week those 59 people who died will be forgotten and nothing will have changed because we'll be addicted to the next murder porn all over the internet and in the news.

(sorry for the rant - didn't see that coming - I hate when I make myself cry - sorry - I need to wipe away my tears and go start getting ready for work - I'll shut up now)

 

[Hypoxia]

Principles trump pragmatism.
The right to possess personal firearms trumps public safety.
But guess what? Principled folk empower and enable mass murderers.
Excuses are easy. "Oh no, I didn't send trains to death camps!"
Of course you didn't. You merely paid for the fuel.

NRA members. 2nd amendment enthusiasts. Listen up:
You own the slaughters. You perpetuate slaughters. You love slaughters.
And you'll enable yet more slaughters. And more.
You get to deal with your consciences.
Sleep tight.

 

[Aglaopheme]

How do you get "big money" out of politics? What is the goal of this?

http://www.unitedtoamend.org

 

[LizVegas79]

Tears are dried. But guess I have more pent-up frustration and anger than I thought!

 

[milehighcityman]

http://www.unitedtoamend.org

But what is the goal? Corporations can't donate to a political cause? Individuals can only donate $x amount? Can't the corporation (which is after all just a group of people) just run its own ads? Or are they prohibited from commenting at all in politics? Wouldn't an extremely wealthy candidate just be able to spend his/her own money and bury a candidate of moderate means because the poor candidate can't raise much money? I don't like candidates or politicians pandering to big donors either, but it just seems that every solution proposed most likely will make the problem worse.

 

[coati]

Tears are dried. But guess I have more pent-up frustration and anger than I thought!

That was such a good description of what is going on in our society, death porn. There is now a perverse pleasure taken and a lot of advertising sold during each of these horrific incidents. Our society is getting sicker and sicker, and yet we keep congratulating ourselves on our heroism and "unity".

Thank you for your concise description of this phenomenon.

 

[Wrmfd]

Michael Moore's 28th Amendment

tl;dr:

...the public’s safety comes ahead of an individual’s right...

The very essence of socialism in toto: it's "democracy", wherein a majority/mob is all that's required to FORCE the enactment of any government flavor it wishes over ALL. Socialism is a collective nation of mob FORCE, not of law.

Socialism is the natural foreign and domestic enemy of the Constitution's mandated republican form of government, which constitutes government to guarantee and protect, not create or be above, unalienable rights for all. America is constituted a nation of individual right law, not collective democracy.

If the Constitution, the law of the land which reigns equally over all citizens (no matter any other status), commands Congress it "shall not"...

...how can any Congress person not be a traitor if, after swearing to "support and defend the Constitution", s/he goes ahead and does so anyway?

Does the rule of law stand, or the opinion of men?

If simple perjury is enough to impeach a President, surely lying about your oath to the Constitution - not to your constituents, not to any majority/mob, not to "democracy" - is a much more betraying offense.

If socialism is successful in employing democracy's majority/mob to repeal Amendment II, then socialism will succeed in completely erasing the very guarantee the framers specifically/intentionally inserted into the Constitution to empower patriots to "keep and bear" the very POWER needed to DEFEND the Constitution's republican form of government itself.



Individual liberty vs. socialism.

And sorry, progressives: as fate will make us all see very, very clearly very, very soon, just like you truly can't have your cake and eat it, too, Why not both? ain't going get by in reality anymore, either...

Blood to water the tree of Liberty vs. Rule of the collective by FORCE

After a century and a half of statism, socialism is making its final push to the very top of Mt. America, and this 28th Amendment stampede will only exponentially quicken. Don't believe me? Just watch how all of a sudden now support for this socialist repeal attack will grow (not saying Moore's exactly, but he's certainly lain a nice mob marker down for them to (unknowingly) gamble their very lives with).

You see, Amendment II's ethos isn't about simple "arms" or politically-correct "gun control"...

...it's sole purpose is to guarantee American patriots "keep and bear" the POWER to defend the Constitution against ALL enemies, foreign and domestic - PERIOD.

Told you it all comes down to that, progressives.

I often post that unalienable individual liberty cannot truly be involuntarily taken from any individual, that if it's lost, it's because the individual gave up and surrendered it himself...

...or he died with it still wholly, naturally in his heart and spirit, still cherishing it for what it is: the most precious political gift ever known to man.

Shit's about to come down big time in America, while the rest of the world makes popcorn more valuable than bitcoin. Which is AOK, because the world hasn't had such revolutionary entertainment since the last time socialists tried to take American patriot POWER totally away...

...April 19, 1775.

And just like that epic tale concluded, American patriots will again be saluted for the individual liberty infusion the entire globe will benefit from.

You know what's actually uniquely incredible about this?

A bit over 9 years ago I completely left my former life behind and entered into total political exile from what I fully saw then had already advanced more than halfway to the 99% socialist America is today, intentionally living my life with individual liberty my vision and power to foretell and adapt to a much different way of life I saw eventually afflicting this entire nation - and now, that very day is in sight.

History itself is fully validating the grade-A accuracy of my political philosophy, vision, and analysis of such an epic event...

...why, it's almost enough to make a guy humble.

Oh, you don't accept that 99% figure?

Mark my words: if the 2nd Amendment falls, the America which declared its independence from socialism in 1776 will be total toast.


Michael Moore's 28th Amendment
https://www.facebook.com/mmflint/posts/10154778028796857

Where will you be standing the day the War to Save Independence begins?

 

[phrodeau]

And all because the Russians meddled in our election.

 

[Colonel Hogan]

Principles trump pragmatism.
The right to possess personal firearms trumps public safety.
But guess what? Principled folk empower and enable mass murderers.
Excuses are easy. "Oh no, I didn't send trains to death camps!"
Of course you didn't. You merely paid for the fuel.

NRA members. 2nd amendment enthusiasts. Listen up:
You own the slaughters. You perpetuate slaughters. You love slaughters.
And you'll enable yet more slaughters. And more.
You get to deal with your consciences.
Sleep tight.

I'm trying real hard not to say "fuck you."

And.......no, I don't think I am going to make it.

Fuck you.

Principled folk who support the law do NOT "enable" mass murders. Not in any way, shape or form.

The right to own a personal firearm is PROTECTED by LAW.

The commission of assault and murder is PROHIBITED by LAW.

Principled folk who embrace both the protection and the prohibition are hardly guilty of assuming an inherently contradictory position. For that matter, principled folk also fully support the right of folks like you, also presumably principled, to change the law to whatever construct you may desire as long as you obtain the sufficient legislative majority to do so and do so lawfully.

Despite making the dumbest fucking statement I believe I have had the misfortune to hear in quite some time.