Financial D/s

[Primalex]

I'd suggest talking to an account about the tax implication of a situation like this.

If you want to cover your ass legally, taxes wouldn't be my first concern. They will tell you if they want more money from you and penalties for normal humans are rare and otherwise usually capped by the tax amount.

The bigger legal problem I see is 'unjust enrichment'. One of the few ways how you might be able to recover gifts, months or years after they were gifted.

 

[RacyWilde]

Sorry about the slow reply... I've been on holiday in London and it would have been perfect to go on Lit during my Underground travel all over the city (and there was a lot!) but there is no reception down there...lol.

Ummm, who says I didn't?
I lived this for 20 years... it will never happen again.

Well, you are exactly the person who could give great insight. I'm presuming you were the finsub and that there wouldn't be many females in this position. I'm sure you have lots of advice (especially on the downfalls, as it does seem you didn't have a good experience) but also suggestions on how you think you can make it a good and positive experience for the sub. That's what I'm after. I'm all too aware of how a situation like this can become abusive, even by accident. I don't want it to, ever, but I still have this deep desire to do this for the sub. It's not about the money, I think for me it is about doing something I am scared of. I'm so hyper aware that a situation like this can turn bad very easily and the challenge to keep it healthy and make it fulfilling is what is drawing me to the situation. I want it to be a positive experience for the both of us, and to smash all the negative taboo about it.

I have no idea about any of this, but this sentence made me go AHHHHH.....

I think that might be the key to understanding perhaps? It's like a gamblers high.

Yes... So, I understand that I not only have to control the action/games, but also I have control of the emotions.... well, at least try and steer them towards the positive. I don't like addictive behaviour, and especially obsession, so, I know there will be a delicate balance to find and keep to make sure the situation never turns unhealthy. I guess I need to monitor escalation. I already sense the 'urgency' in the sub... the craving... I guess I want him to be able to explore that craving - those feelings of want - in a safe situation. I think I'm a pretty good judge of when someone is out of control and so I think that is why I'm happy to control the situation so I can bring him back to a sane level of craving. Sure, I might push his heights, but as a Domme it is my duty to ensure he has the after care he needs (meaning the return from his 'gambler's craving high' to be healthy.

I'd suggest talking to an account about the tax implication of a situation like this.

Unless they're dealing in amounts over the annual exclusion amount, they likely won't need to worry about taxes. Assuming the countries they live in have gift taxes.

Example: In the US the exclusion amount is at $14,000.00 annually, the only thing that needs to be filed is the gift tax return on anything over that and that's done by the gifting person.

Personally, I would make myself aware of the local and foreign tax requirements for my country/their country and not involve an accountant unless the gifts were over the exclusion amount.

Yes! Actually, for some reason I know a little about this. A one off gift is just that, but reoccurring gifts apparently need to be reported. I live in a country where I can earn up to US$10,000 as a small side business before I would have to report it. But what I am thinking about doing is getting him to buy things that are actually for him...lol. Like BDSM equipment and such. So, it's another level of control - he doesn't get to choose what I spend his money on....lol. If I want to spend it on him, so be it!

Money is an odd thing.

Personally I would be concerned where the feeling of PYL / control/ whatever in an ongoing relationship like this might be. I can imagine for some PYLs a regularish not small amount might become an easy thing to become comfortable with, and difficult to walk away from. Just as you see in some marriages where practicality/ finance holds them together.

It seems to me to have great potential for mess of more than fiscal or legal sort; infact, I see that as rather the easiest part of it.

Yes... and hence the lure of the challenge for myself. I don't like money, and I'm a girl that makes her own way in the world. It's in my nature not to be dependant on others for financial support. Part of the allure of this relationship for me is to challenge my own character. So far I've practice abstinence - I haven't let anyone give me money, period. But, rather than just staying away from the lion altogether, I want to walk into the lion's den and prove to myself that I am strong enough to own my fears and make friends with the beast. I'd never want to be dependant on another person's money - I see that as being weak, subject, or worse, owned. My happiness is not being bound to anyone. So, not only do I need to watch out for the sub, I need to be very careful of myself, to monitor my own journey very closely to make sure I am developing in the way I want and not falling into a trap.

I have personally no experience with financial domination but a good friend of mine does and she and I have had discussions about it. In other words when the subject came up she had similar concerns as you do and used me as a backstop to bounce her own thoughts and questions off of.

Several things came up out of it but like I said... I have no experience here please only follow your own feelings.

What is the financial situation of the person requesting this service?
After all other expenses and savings what is the person able to play with as disposable income without impacting personal or family life. Learning another persons personal finances also requires time and effort on your part and honesty on his.
Does he have a family?
Does what he want actually involve the passing financial assets to you or is it the control of those assets without gain on your part that matters? Say... would it suffice to have him transfer funds to a savings account on your order which still leaves him the assets?
This is a lot of thought and effort for you personally, do you take monetary tribute for yourself?

In the end communication is important. If you have a question or doubt get an answer and have fun exploring this with him.

Yes, all very good things to consider. It's the passing of financial assets to me that he wants. But, I still get to choose where the money is spent, so I can indirectly spend it on him (like I said above) on BDSM toys that I will use on him. In terms of the relationship... I don't like to get 'daily life' close to subs. I don't want to know about how much they make or about there relationships with others... I never pry... I'm not the busy-body type... and in that sense I'm not a curious girl. It's only what happens between me and him that matters.

One of the things that has made me feel at ease about considering this is that the sub himself has set a financial cap. I respect that (though, I can see how this can be pushed/abused if I get him too high on the game). We have discussed what is a medium financial torture and what would be a maximum for one session. Though, for myself, I have to secretly plan out how many sessions to have a week depending on the amounts already given because I can see how it could get out of hand. This is where my care as a Domme comes in, even though he might not be aware of it. It is in my conscience not to torture him beyond his means...lol.

 

[RacyWilde]

You didn't. You came to the conclusion that abuse is stereotypical for FinDom. I'm inclined to agree. But how comes this can be so publically displayed? Imagine the uproar if there would be a forum that supports abusive violence against women and men would brag there about it. Anyway, my intention was not a discussion, it was an amused blurt.

Haha! This is a discussion whether you like it or not. I say something, then you, them me... and then all of a sudden - BAM! we have a discussion...lol.

Yes, I understand your point. And I agree with you - look at all the action movies that are happy to blow away men in them without a care... Men are seen as expendable. Even Rambo! lol.

But, you know, I have never known a female yet to be a finsub (well, one now from this discussion, though it didn't seem like a willing position). I know they exist and I am so curious as to their motivation - what is their desire, their need from it.

If you want to cover your ass legally, taxes wouldn't be my first concern. They will tell you if they want more money from you and penalties for normal humans are rare and otherwise usually capped by the tax amount.

The bigger legal problem I see is 'unjust enrichment'. One of the few ways how you might be able to recover gifts, months or years after they were gifted.

Yes, really good point!!! I think this would largely depend on the relationship and my position as Domme. I see that it is very important that I don't get myself in a position where I rely or need the gifts and so therefore can give them up without a second thought. I'm very good at that because I am never controlled by material possessions. And, everything that is bought should have no impact on my own personal/financial life. I think this is key to keeping this D/s relationship healthy, successful and fulfilling. I'll have the point of view that everything that is gifted isn't really mine but a token of our functioning relationship. I think the 'unjust enrichment' would only come in because of hindsight - if the sub is happy and fulfilled and we have a successful end to our relationship then I'm supposing that there is no need to see the gifting as 'unjust enrichment'.

I can see how a contract is a good idea from the beginning of such a relationship. Though, it's harder if you both want to keep your identities secret from one another...lol. As I mentioned in a previous comment, we don't plan to delve into each other's personal lives - no personal details, we will only be focusing on our own relationship. But it's certainly something to think about and I presume it would be essential to full-on Financial Domination situations.

 

[Primalex]

One of the things that has made me feel at ease about considering this is that the sub himself has set a financial cap. I respect that (though, I can see how this can be pushed/abused if I get him too high on the game). We have discussed what is a medium financial torture and what would be a maximum for one session. Though, for myself, I have to secretly plan out how many sessions to have a week depending on the amounts already given because I can see how it could get out of hand. This is where my care as a Domme comes in, even though he might not be aware of it. It is in my conscience not to torture him beyond his means...lol.

I declare, that henceforth, this shall be known as
financial service topping
and the involved persons as
financial service top
and as
financial service bottom.​

 

[RacyWilde]

I declare, that henceforth, this shall be known as
financial service topping
and the involved persons as
financial service top
and as
financial service bottom.​

Hm, maybe in your little world

Actually it is still categorized under Findom. And, I prefer Findom top/bottom. "Service" sounds like accounting...lol.

 

[MeekMe]

Hm, maybe in your little world

Actually it is still categorized under Findom. And, I prefer Findom top/bottom. "Service" sounds like accounting...lol.

Well, I see this as a service you are providing to the submissive in this situation. They are asking you to do this and setting most of the parameters for you to follow. You also don't seem entirely at ease with the situation (which is understandable). But in the grand scheme of things I think Primalex is right in saying that this is more along the lines of service top. There's nothing wrong with service topping. A good example would be going to a club and seeing someone that is really skilled at spanking. Someone that enjoys spanking sees this and asks the spanker if they will play with them for an agreed upon time and way. The spanker then provides the service of spanking without actually taking control away from the spankee. There's an agreement of duration and type of spanking to take place. They don't have a d/s dynamic, but a temporary top/bottom scenario that amounts to a service being provided and accepted.


As for abuse, I think that it's easy to see that it happens but maybe a little harder to see when it's not being abusive. I've seen examples of financial domination between male dominants and females subs, but it tends to be more along the lines of asking permission to spend X amount. I gave an example in another thread of a woman that wanted to buy shoes (with her own earned money) and was denied the buying of the shoes. She could afford them, she liked them, but he told her "no." In that way I think it's domination. But like anything in BDSM or d/s things can easily slip past the line and become abusive. I've seen other examples or the woman being the one to pick up the tab on all excursions. If they go out to dinner and a movie, she pays and that's what they agreed on. It would become abusive if he insists they go to dinner regardless of her saying, "I don't have the funds this week and I need to pay the electric bill."

 

[Ed27R]

My argument against would be that you can't get around the fact that you have put a price on all or some aspects of the relationship. I realize that this is kind of the point - especially for the sub/bottom point of view - but you will be putting a hard, dollar value on things you do together. The line is so fine for falling into abuse or, much more likely, into it feeling like a job. Given how you describe yourself - my guess is that you will find very little enjoyment (outside of the new challenge) from the power or control of his money and the explicit price it puts on things.

Something to consider - but I am not sure I accept the idea that these things can have no impact on your personal/financial life. If they are at all useful to you - then they have an impact. Maybe random useless crap - but will either of you get something out of that? I don't have answers - just thoughts.

All that being said - this is an area that I really don't know a lot about and am very interested to see how it plays out for you. Good luck.

 

[Primalex]

Haha! This is a discussion whether you like it or not. I say something, then you, them me... and then all of a sudden - BAM! we have a discussion...lol.

I wrote "my intention was not a discussion" not that this is not a discussion.
I spend quite some time to carefully word every single posting I make. It would be courteous to at least read what I write before replying, as it saves me the hassle of refuting statements I have never made.

 

[Primalex]

Actually it is still categorized under Findom. And, I prefer Findom top/bottom. "Service" sounds like accounting...lol.

That's exactly what you do.

 

[RacyWilde]

Well, I see this as a service you are providing to the submissive in this situation. They are asking you to do this and setting most of the parameters for you to follow. You also don't seem entirely at ease with the situation (which is understandable). But in the grand scheme of things I think Primalex is right in saying that this is more along the lines of service top. There's nothing wrong with service topping. A good example would be going to a club and seeing someone that is really skilled at spanking. Someone that enjoys spanking sees this and asks the spanker if they will play with them for an agreed upon time and way. The spanker then provides the service of spanking without actually taking control away from the spankee. There's an agreement of duration and type of spanking to take place. They don't have a d/s dynamic, but a temporary top/bottom scenario that amounts to a service being provided and accepted.


As for abuse, I think that it's easy to see that it happens but maybe a little harder to see when it's not being abusive. I've seen examples of financial domination between male dominants and females subs, but it tends to be more along the lines of asking permission to spend X amount. I gave an example in another thread of a woman that wanted to buy shoes (with her own earned money) and was denied the buying of the shoes. She could afford them, she liked them, but he told her "no." In that way I think it's domination. But like anything in BDSM or d/s things can easily slip past the line and become abusive. I've seen other examples or the woman being the one to pick up the tab on all excursions. If they go out to dinner and a movie, she pays and that's what they agreed on. It would become abusive if he insists they go to dinner regardless of her saying, "I don't have the funds this week and I need to pay the electric bill."

Yes, I understand what you are saying about service, and that is a completely bonafide way for a people to get what they need while still maintaining their control. However, it is important to note that a D/s relationship isn't necessarily about love either - it is about the pair fulfilling their other's need - one of submission, one of domination. Even though I am not entering this relationship for love, I am entering it to become fulfilled in some way - I want to grow and become stronger, I want a unique experience and I also want to fulfil the needs of my sub - essentially I want to make him happy. I'd say that pretty much sums up a D/s relationship without 'service' micro explaining it.

To be clear, I'm not being paid for our relationship, though I can see how some can misconceive this. The financial torture is the flogging, not the payment for the flogging - which yes, in purity, is service but my situation is more complex. In fact, I've already played with him a little and he is begging for more "flogging" and I have said no. I find myself in the weird position of not only financially torturing him, but torturing him by denying him financial torture...lol. Even though the rules have been mutually set now - which all good D/s relationships have - I've realised I am in complete control. So, I don't think this 'service' applies to my situation.

Yeah, and I mentioned above - I don't agree with impacting on someone's personal life. It's not my thing. But if I find my relationship with my sub is affecting him in a negative way, I will end it. I may not be a natural nurturer, but I truly care for the people I have influence over. As far as I'm concerned, real life comes first.

 

[RacyWilde]

My argument against would be that you can't get around the fact that you have put a price on all or some aspects of the relationship. I realize that this is kind of the point - especially for the sub/bottom point of view - but you will be putting a hard, dollar value on things you do together. The line is so fine for falling into abuse or, much more likely, into it feeling like a job. Given how you describe yourself - my guess is that you will find very little enjoyment (outside of the new challenge) from the power or control of his money and the explicit price it puts on things.

Something to consider - but I am not sure I accept the idea that these things can have no impact on your personal/financial life. If they are at all useful to you - then they have an impact. Maybe random useless crap - but will either of you get something out of that? I don't have answers - just thoughts.

All that being said - this is an area that I really don't know a lot about and am very interested to see how it plays out for you. Good luck.

I've actually thought about this a lot. I was really adverse to being 'bought'. But I realised I would only be 'bought' if I myself had no freedom to give my personal dominance. If he wanted a taylor-make the way I dominate, I would have said no. But, he wants me, and my freedom to dominate. In fact, he is not buying anything, he just needs to waste his money. He needs to lose control of it to feel free. I actually understand that. Of course to do that he could just easily burn it in the backyard, but he is also after the slow torture of having someone take it away from him - he's a masochist. I don't fully understand it but I appreciate it.

As I mentioned above - the financial torture is the flogging, not the payment for the flogging. Logically, I completely understand this. I think the issue in a lot of people's minds is that my sub wants to give me something tangible as part of/all of his submission. Now, if my sub wanted to give me his love as part of/all of his submission, I think no one would have a problem with that. But because he wants to give me something that is countable - like a tenth of his harvest (whether that be beans or money) - out of devotion, people have a problem with that. (Side note: It is sad that material possessions are so much more valued and feared (as in respected) than love these days.) But what if my sub sees love and money as the same representation of devotion? That the value is not what is given, but the sacrifice in giving it?

I do really want to explore these concepts and understand them. I am fascinated by human need and desire - the human condition. I'm just really grateful for this opportunity. And I'm actually really grateful that I've been able to discuss things here because it has made me really think on my values and intensions. And I have been introduced to other things to consider too. Yes, I'm scared... I just want to do it right and give my best - I'm a perfectionist...lol. So I'm glad I've been able to pick up some extra tips and bounce ideas around to go into this better informed.

Thanks

 

[MeekMe]

Yes, I understand what you are saying about service, and that is a completely bonafide way for a people to get what they need while still maintaining their control. However, it is important to note that a D/s relationship isn't necessarily about love either - it is about the pair fulfilling their other's need - one of submission, one of domination. Even though I am not entering this relationship for love, I am entering it to become fulfilled in some way - I want to grow and become stronger, I want a unique experience and I also want to fulfil the needs of my sub - essentially I want to make him happy. I'd say that pretty much sums up a D/s relationship without 'service' micro explaining it.

To be clear, I'm not being paid for our relationship, though I can see how some can misconceive this. The financial torture is the flogging, not the payment for the flogging - which yes, in purity, is service but my situation is more complex. In fact, I've already played with him a little and he is begging for more "flogging" and I have said no. I find myself in the weird position of not only financially torturing him, but torturing him by denying him financial torture...lol. Even though the rules have been mutually set now - which all good D/s relationships have - I've realised I am in complete control. So, I don't think this 'service' applies to my situation.

Yeah, and I mentioned above - I don't agree with impacting on someone's personal life. It's not my thing. But if I find my relationship with my sub is affecting him in a negative way, I will end it. I may not be a natural nurturer, but I truly care for the people I have influence over. As far as I'm concerned, real life comes first.

I didn't mention love and don't believe d/s requires it to be considered d/s. Perhaps my example was slightly off. It's like someone asking for knife play from a top that spanks really well but doesn't do knife play. They might have to tell the one asking "wait a minute, I don't have that skill. I'm willing to learn about it and provide you with knife play later though." This also doesn't mean that services aren't provided within dynamics. Maybe the d-type doesn't actually get much out of providing knife play but their s-type REALLY, REALLY wants it so they learn and do it as a service for their s-type.

My abuse comment was of a general discussion point. Just pointing out that financial domination can and does take place in different ways/dynamics and genders. It's also possible that what one considers abuse another considers heaven.

 

[RacyWilde]

I wrote "my intention was not a discussion" not that this is not a discussion.
I spend quite some time to carefully word every single posting I make. It would be courteous to at least read what I write before replying, as it saves me the hassle of refuting statements I have never made.

Haha! I am going to drive you nuts, boy. You seem to be under the impression that people should do what you want... Of course I read what you write because I am very courteous, but that doesn't mean I'll answer the way you want me too. I think you create enough pain for yourself thinking I would, or should...lol. Why do you feel the need to refute statements if you never made them anyway? I wouldn't bother - it's only you that cares about it. *kiss* *kiss*

That's exactly what you do.

Eh, no...lol. (Talk about not reading what someone wrote...lol) I'm not the traditional 'Findomme' - I'm not taking full control of his finances. I'm just in control of a Financial Domination game that will 'torture' him financially.

 

[RacyWilde]

I didn't mention love and don't believe d/s requires it to be considered d/s. Perhaps my example was slightly off. It's like someone asking for knife play from a top that spanks really well but doesn't do knife play. They might have to tell the one asking "wait a minute, I don't have that skill. I'm willing to learn about it and provide you with knife play later though." This also doesn't mean that services aren't provided within dynamics. Maybe the d-type doesn't actually get much out of providing knife play but their s-type REALLY, REALLY wants it so they learn and do it as a service for their s-type.

No, you didn't mention love - I just made a comment on it.

Yeah, so again, no - I'm not servicing for the sub, I'm doing it because I want to - I really, really want to experience what it is like to be a Findom.

My abuse comment was of a general discussion point. Just pointing out that financial domination can and does take place in different ways/dynamics and genders. It's also possible that what one considers abuse another considers heaven.

Oh, I agree. And it also makes it clear that people shouldn't criticise another's kinks just because they can't understand them.

 

[Primalex]

Why do you feel the need to refute statements if you never made them anyway?

How can you support Middle East female genital mutilation? 4-year-old girls have their inner and outer labia removed and you think this is part of religious freedom. This is sickening.

Eh, no...lol. (Talk about not reading what someone wrote...lol) I'm not the traditional 'Findomme' - I'm not taking full control of his finances. I'm just in control of a Financial Domination game that will 'torture' him financially.

He controls the game. You could be replaced by an Alexa app.

 

[RacyWilde]

How can you support Middle East female genital mutilation? 4-year-old girls have their inner and outer labia removed and you think this is part of religious freedom. This is sickening.

Hm... Yes, you are trying very hard to make people think you are all noble and righteous but dude... c'mon. An ass has better taste than this. :*

He controls the game. You could be replaced by an Alexa app.

Haha! See, you don't know me very well. I'm letting him think he controls the game. I'm an anarchist - I don't play by other peoples rules. Of course, we have set up guidelines to keep us safe and to know limits... but I'm a rule breaker and I will drive him nuts breaking everything he has set up. If he wants to keep me he will have to drop all his expectations and preconceived ideas of how this is going to go. . This is why I am a Goddess. (Plus, an Alexa app won't meet him face-to-face and flog him with a cat-o-nine that he has bought with his own money.)

 

[Cakecups]

Haha! See, you don't know me very well. I'm letting him think he controls the game. I'm an anarchist - I don't play by other peoples rules. Of course, we have set up guidelines to keep us safe and to know limits... but I'm a rule breaker and I will drive him nuts breaking everything he has set up. If he wants to keep me he will have to drop all his expectations and preconceived ideas of how this is going to go. . This is why I am a Goddess. (Plus, an Alexa app won't meet him face-to-face and flog him with a cat-o-nine that he has bought with his own money.)

I'm confused, there's limits yet you're a rule breaker and plan to break all rules he has set up, so are there really limits?

Have you known this guy for a long time? Are you sure there is no way this can royally fuck you over, like he can somehow get your money?

 

[RacyWilde]

I'm confused, there's limits yet you're a rule breaker and plan to break all rules he has set up, so are there really limits?

Have you known this guy for a long time? Are you sure there is no way this can royally fuck you over, like he can somehow get your money?

BDSM safety limits are different to rules of a game we play.

Limits range from soft to hard - and we have set both up for safe interaction and confidence. The rules of the game are things like - I have to go slow (fuck no..lol), I have to jump up in small increments (yeah, bullshit...lol), etc. My domination/control comes into play with amount, frequency, demands, instruction, denial, tasks, and whatever I damn please. The only real thing he does control is meanness... I'm taking his lead on that one as naturally I'm a seductive Domme, not a ball-busting one.

 

[Cakecups]

BDSM safety limits are different to rules of a game we play.

Limits range from soft to hard - and we have set both up for safe interaction and confidence. The rules of the game are things like - I have to go slow (fuck no..lol), I have to jump up in small increments (yeah, bullshit...lol), etc. My domination/control comes into play with amount, frequency, demands, instruction, denial, tasks, and whatever I damn please. The only real thing he does control is meanness... I'm taking his lead on that one as naturally I'm a seductive Domme, not a ball-busting one.

How does he actually give you the money? I would be worried about being fucked over in some way, as in he gains access to your money somehow

 

[RacyWilde]

How does he actually give you the money? I would be worried about being fucked over in some way, as in he gains access to your money somehow

Gift cards for Amazon to start with. It means that there is no transference of private information. I get a code number from him and I write it into my own account. I don't have to spend it and can keep adding to the amount as he gives more cards, but I can't claim it in cash, which is perfectly fine for me. The only problem I have with it is that I had planned to buy BDSM products to use on him so his money is kind of returned but Amazon really only has toy stuff, not the real stuff I'm after.

 

[Farawyn]

He controls the game. You could be replaced by an Alexa app.

This.
He is completely in charge.
All he had to do is change his access for you. Or say he's been hacked.
Or stop.
He has all the control. It's his money.

 

[Cakecups]

Gift cards for Amazon to start with. It means that there is no transference of private information. I get a code number from him and I write it into my own account. I don't have to spend it and can keep adding to the amount as he gives more cards, but I can't claim it in cash, which is perfectly fine for me. The only problem I have with it is that I had planned to buy BDSM products to use on him so his money is kind of returned but Amazon really only has toy stuff, not the real stuff I'm after.

Oh so this is someone you see in person? If you plan to buy actual things to use on him then why not just do cash?

 

[Blue]

(Plus, an Alexa app won't meet him face-to-face and flog him with a cat-o-nine that he has bought with his own money.)

Just wait till the sexbots become advanced enough...

Humans are becoming obsolete!

 

[Farawyn]

Oh so this is someone you see in person? If you plan to buy actual things to use on him then why not just do cash?

Wait.
The money is being transferred so you can buy for him?

 

[Primalex]

Hm... Yes, you are trying very hard to make people think you are all noble and righteous

Yes, I'm famous here for exactly these attributes. You uncovered my scheme.