Universal Basic Income

[BotanyBoy]

Setting aside how you feel justified in characterizing UBI as welfare, universal basic income is distinct from what we typically associate as welfare in both its internal logic and its validation. And in much of the conversation about UBI these days, it is also distinct from welfare in both its context and what motivates it.

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/pile_of_shit.gif

 

[Ishmael]

Today, as we speak, a bottle of beer in Viet Nam is 53 cents. Do they get the same UBI as a citizen of the US? The UK? Teirra del Fuego?

Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

Ishmael

 

[BoyNextDoor]

Setting aside how you feel justified in characterizing UBI as welfare, universal basic income is distinct from what we typically associate as welfare in both its internal logic and its validation. And in much of the conversation about UBI these days, it is also distinct from welfare in both its context and what motivates it.

Sounds more like if envy and greed had a baby.

 

[Ishmael]

Sounds more like if envy and greed had a baby.

Lazy has to be in the mix somewhere.

Ishmael

 

[LadyFunkenstein]

Setting aside how you feel justified in characterizing UBI as welfare, universal basic income is distinct from what we typically associate as welfare in both its internal logic and its validation. And in much of the conversation about UBI these days, it is also distinct from welfare in both its context and what motivates it.

This is not a high school paper you forced to turn in. This is Lit. You are legit to not comment at all on any and every thread. No need to type out useless posts like this.

 

[Phelia]

Thanks for this. I'm going to check out that book.

Awesome! Let me know what you think. Sometimes, I do find he is a little tooooo optimistic, but gosh, I think we need someone who's enthusiastically cheerleading a sunny outlook for the future of humanity right now.

Sooooo let's just say it's a mircle boom for society.

Who the fuck is funding it?

Do we just monopoly money everyone 2g's a month or something?

Poverty is expensive for society. It is cheaper to give people money than manage complex benefit systems. Here's someone who's made the math work, today, without a single dollar in tax increases for a single American and without touching social security, medicare, and medicaid. The government would save $100m+.

(A libertarian, by the way - even Gary Johnson kept it on the table and plenty others have made the case).

I would like something even wilder and grander that would require a paradigm shift if the way we think about work and economics and a lot of things people don't like to question because it's The Way Things Are.

But I won't get into that, because interacting with you is like talking to a brick wall.

Slammed for my personal opinion and slammed for providing open source encyclopedia info. What ever!

Well, you don't get to base policies on a personal opinion when there are ways to test it, and certainly not when a great deal of tests have come back with contradictory findings. And yes, you would have a better sense of that if you'd bothered to do more than the most cursory research on the subject. If that hurts your feelings, grow up.

"Countless" studies? That must be a very large number. I can count pretty high, altbough I can conceive of even larger numbers that would be impractical to count.

You try this a lot. It is tedious. Stay in your weight class.

I am not embarrassed at all and stand behind everything I wrote regarding the article. If you don't like what I wrote, or disagree with it, so be it. It's OK to disagree but... Your frothing rage over a differing opinion is bizarre and obviously is based on internal anger. That's your problem, not mine. I don't know who VatAss is, but s/he sounds like a fattie too.

Accusations of "frothing rage" from someone who spun into paragraphs of "you're all FAT!" Ell-oh-ell.

Your claim was ridiculous (which was no surprise, given your habit of posting specious, poorly sourced/argued bullshit since going full troll). You can own it and move on, of course, but you'll have to stop so obviously overcompensating first.

Who gets this "Universal Basic Income"?

Who decides?

Who Pays?

Seems like a moronic concept to me.

Rigorously intellectual contribution, as always.

 

[jaF0]

soon all food will need to come from the USDA ONLY. Everyone gets an equal allotment ...

... of Soylent Green.

 

[toeskr]

What a crock of shit!

So now all you have to do is be born, pick up your participation ribbon and collect a fucking check?

These worthless piles of shit will wilt in the real world.

And drum rolls for soft rom, fraudeux and all the weirdos that want to support them for the rest of yours and their lives.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Follow the trends. Even the Chinese are losing jobs to automation - structural unemployment by automation is regarded by economists as a dominant long term factor. It is easy to imagine that any developed economy will require something like UBI, long term.

Economically there is no such thing as jobs lost to automation, or anything else. Every time that an industry becomes more efficient, its production of goods becomes cheaper, i.e., its goods become cheaper and the consumer gains because he now has a little more discretionary income which means he can put it towards other goods and services which then creates demand for more jobs across other industries. Thus automation causes job migration, not job destruction.

There is no way that we become a fully automated world for generations to come, therefore, we don't need to worry about stupid shit like UBI, it is just a political call for stupid voters to rally to the Progressive cause, the aim of which is to reduce and return the common man to a slave of the state dependent upon the King and his advisor class for his daily bread.

 

[JohnnySavage]

The idea of getting something for nothing has always had great appeal to those who hate to work, hate to do all of the things required to "earn" a proper and comfortable lifestyle. We have a whole non-productive government class concentrating on how this can be achieved and controlled by themselves with the full political support of a fully enfranchised indolent underclass as cannon fodder.

Breathless theoretics and social experimentation to jumpstart the lifeless form of Utopia are from time to time incubated in bureaucracies and in the rarified atmospheres of the laboratories of academe. The graveyards of Europe, the Russian Steppes, and Asia are where they buried the failures.

Isn't your Social Security check to be deposited in your bank account tomorrow?

You're welcome; have a beer on me.

 

[JohnnySavage]

But back on topic - money is obsolete in the United Federation of Planets. We just have to hold on for a few hundred more years until first contact.

 

[JohnnySavage]

And another thing - the key to a developed economy is/will be, energy storage. The Earth receives and produces more energy then the cancer that is humanity could possibly use. The problem is that it's a use it or lose it deal. Currently.

 

[JohnnySavage]

P.S. - I didn't really read the thread. Just skimmed it because there was too much googlizing going on and I didn't know what most of the words that were cut and pasted meant.

 

[toeskr]

Isn't your Social Security check to be deposited in your bank account tomorrow?

You're welcome; have a beer on me.

Ummm, Johnny. Did you not contribute to Social Security in your working days?

I know, think way back.

PBR it is.

 

[JohnnySavage]

Ummm, Johnny. Did you not contribute to Social Security in your working days?

I know, think way back.

PBR it is.

1. Who are you, and why are you talking to me?

2. I'm currently in my peak earning period and am in the office at 5:30 every morning.

3. I don't denigrate those receiving government assistance, while receiving government assistance; and enjoy calling out those that do.

If I can be of any further assistance to you, please don't hesitate to PM me.

 

[toeskr]

1. Who are you, and why are you talking to me?

2. I'm currently in my peak earning period and am in the office at 5:30 every morning.

3. I don't denigrate those receiving government assistance, while receiving government assistance; and enjoy calling out those that do.

If I can be of any further assistance to you, please don't hesitate to PM me.

Count again but backwards and only one more PBR.

Then you can sleep peacefully and when you wake up you will realize that social security benefits are ones that you hopefully have paid into.

And no, no dirty pm's from me.

I'm not the enemy, sleep Johnny, sleep.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Poverty is expensive for society. It is cheaper to give people money than manage complex benefit systems. Here's someone who's made the math work, today, without a single dollar in tax increases for a single American and without touching social security, medicare, and medicaid. The government would save $100m+.

They didn't include all the fluff money that has to vanish into nothingness......you know damn well it would wind up costing 700 times (or some equally absurd number) to get something like that done.

(A libertarian, by the way - even Gary Johnson kept it on the table and plenty others have made the case).

Well golly gee wiz if Johnson approves that must make wealth redistribution totally not socialist!!!

I would like something even wilder and grander that would require a paradigm shift if the way we think about work and economics and a lot of things people don't like to question because it's The Way Things Are.

And I would like to go back to everyone minding their own bidnizz and taking care of their own shit.

Neither is likely to happen.

But I won't get into that, because interacting with you is like talking to a brick wall.

Hey kettle!!!

 

[LadyFunkenstein]

Accusations of "frothing rage" from someone who spun into paragraphs of "you're all FAT!" Ell-oh-ell.

Your claim was ridiculous (which was no surprise, given your habit of posting specious, poorly sourced/argued bullshit since going full troll). You can own it and move on, of course, but you'll have to stop so obviously overcompensating first.

Your rage is on full display. It must suck to live life filled with animosity. No wonder this place consumes your life, there are no mirrors to look into.

Glad I'm not you.

 

[LJ_Reloaded]

I'm not the one who just wants to hand out money to everyone for existing LOL

No, you want to live like an animal and play "survival of the fittest". There's a place for low functioning beasts like you, it's called a jungle.

 

[BoyNextDoor]

Lazy has to be in the mix somewhere.

Ishmael

I am not sure that is true. Lazy can be the absence of viability as opposed to the presence of sloth.

Envy+greed implies equal and equitable are the same thing. But they are not. The US need to be more focused on equitable.

 

[BoyNextDoor]

Rigorously intellectual contribution, as always.

Ok. I'm game. On what terms would you like to be rigorously intellectual in a discussion of UBI? I would suggest we rigorously stick to economic theory, to start, and call each other out when we stray from economic theory. Agreed?

Super. I'll start. I'm going to stay within Marxian economic theory as I understand it.

As long as the producers of the value get to determine how it is appropriated and to whom it can be distributed, then that is a system that makes sense. So I ask you again, who decides?

 

[Que]

I am not sure that is true. Lazy can be the absence of viability as opposed to the presence of sloth.

Envy+greed implies equal and equitable are the same thing. But they are not. The US need to be more focused on equitable.

There is an app for that:

http://equitableapp.com/

As seen in The Atlantic!

Never mind the fallacy that the above app is based on that each demographic is not putting in varying degrees of effort, that there is greater reward for jobs of higher risk, and that some put in more hours actually working, or do overtime vs taking every available sick day (and then some.)


To your actual point, their is nothing equitable about taking a dollar from anyone that earned it and handing it to someone else who did not. This is simply plunder. Plunder is a popular concept with those that envision being on the receiving, or better still, highly paid plunder adminstration end.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

When you think that is noble to take from those above your station in life, then everyone below your station if life will also find in noble to take from you. So everyone in the top 49% is pretty much vulnerable when the shared morality is from each according to their ability and to each according to their need.

 

[Ishmael]

When you think that is noble to take from those above your station in life, then everyone below your station if life will also find in noble to take from you. So everyone in the top 49% is pretty much vulnerable when the shared morality is from each according to their ability and to each according to their need.

No just where have I heard that before? Hmmmm?

Ishmael

 

[hsnh]

When you think that is noble to take from those above your station in life, then everyone below your station if life will also find in noble to take from you. So everyone in the top 49% is pretty much vulnerable when the shared morality is from each according to their ability and to each according to their need.

Well, according to my friends & relatives the Democrats' war was carried against the mid to upper middle class (millionaires included), who are listed as "very high income" by Obamacare, for example.
-- They've been trying to gradually gut the Middle Class under the pretense of "They should help thy neighbour".

By the same token, why do Republicans always make it sound as if the two (the 40 billionaires who own Washington and the middle to upper Middle Class) are joined to the hip?
"You attack the mid- to Upper Middle Class, you therefore inadvertently attack the 40 billionaires who own Washington?"
Those are two separate classes.

Reps. seem just as disingenuous as Dems. are, to me.




* The massive concentration of the World's wealth in the hands of just a few occurred just in the last 3 decades, and it was made possible by the neoliberal globalist policies that were put in place after the 70's.