Spaces around Em dash?

[tomlitilia]

Em dash is a great way to give air to a sentence. But the way e.g. word suggest it should be implemented is without spaces. For instance

"At first it made her anxious—she wasn't used to hanging around with them with so much of her body exposed."

But I always add spaces around it, turning the above example into

"At first it made her anxious — she wasn't used to hanging around with them with so much of her body exposed."

I think it's far easier to read, and avoids that the brain mistakes the dash for a hyphen (i.e. "anxious-she" in the above example). I read somewhere that newspapers usually adds spaces too, presumably for the readability. Would the spaces around Em dash register as wrong to anyone?

 

[norfolklad]

An em dash (rule) is used by Oxford and most US publishers as a parenthetical dash closed up.

An en dash with space either side is used by most British publishers.

 

[NotWise]

I make liberal use of em dashes, with no spaces. LibreOffice won't create an em dash with spaces, which is normally done by entering a word followed by two dashes and another word with no intervening space. When you space after the second word the two dashes are replaced by an em dash. To put spaces there you would have to create the em dash then go back and add them.

For some reason, Em dashes are replaced by two simple dashes in my Literotica stories, and I've had comments from readers who found those annoying. That's why I now [find/replace] the Em dashes by simple dashes in my stories before I submit them; according to Tx_Tall_Tales it is correct to use spaces around those.

My stories don't have that problem. The issue may be with the character set you're using. Not all character sets include an em dash. I use utf-8 and it works fine.

 

[ElectricBlue]

An en dash with space either side is used by most British publishers.

That's what I've always used and what I'm used to (and pretty sure it's the default here in Oz for fiction, technical and business writing). The double m dash just looks strange to me.

I always set my word processors to UK spelling, which I assume also defaults it to UK grammar and punctuation, and never have problems with dashes - like that one. It's automatic for me to type space dash space. It would never occur to me to type two dashes consecutively -- nah, that's just unnatural for me. I got it wrong, too, I have to have the spaces. Typing that is like wearing a watch on the wrong wrist.

Brother Pilot loves his em dashes, but he, poor bastard, is probably still figuring out how to eat with his jaw all wired up.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I use Word, and it automatically replaces simple dashes by Em dashes when they are surrounded by spaces.

I think you're mixing up em and en dashes there. For reference (will vary with font):

Hyphen: -
En dash: –
Em dash: —

En is roughly the width of a letter 'n' and em is the width of a 'm' [correction: should be 'M'], hence the names.

By the way... Sorry for acting as a smartass, but I quickly checked your story 'A Necessary Seduction' and found:

In that story, there are also correct Em dashes (see, for example, the first quote of that story) but they are also surrounded by spaces - is that something Literotica did?

The single dash in that quote after "I don't care" is en, not em.

 

[NotWise]

By the way... Sorry for acting as a smartass, but I quickly checked your story 'A Necessary Seduction' and found:

"A Necessary Seduction" was the first story I ever posted to Lit. I didn't get the use of the em dash down until later, and some tutoring from Pilot. You might check a more recent story like Oscar's Place. It looks like I figured it out after my Valentine's Day entry in 2016.

 

[ChloeTzang]

This is probably a dumb question, but I've been using "..." instead of " - " to show pauses in dialog. Is the " - " the accepted standard?

 

[NotWise]

This is probably a dumb question, but I've been using "..." instead of " - " to show pauses in dialog. Is the " - " the accepted standard?

I think it's correct to use an ellipsis to signify a pause in dialog. The em dash indicates something more like an interjection or interruption in the train of thought.

 

[yukonnights]

Thanks for this info, I've always used the ellipsis. I just tried the double dash on the plain text editor on my mac, and it does turn that into an 'em dash' (and indeed, I had to go back and add spaces if I were to want them). Just to check on this Lit processor--nope.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Ah, there are even more of them!

Many more... see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dash for the others

NotWise last stories do show the Em dash; his earlier stories have the En dash with spaces around them, and/or the double hyphens (there is no such thing as a simple dash?) with spaces around them.

By my understanding "dash" is a class of punctuation symbols. There's no character that's just "dash", they're all em or en or double-em or (etc.) dashes. But if somebody says "dash" without qualification, they usually mean an en dash or a hyphen.

 

[Bramblethorn]

This is probably a dumb question, but I've been using "..." instead of " - " to show pauses in dialog. Is the " - " the accepted standard?

Ellipses (...) are fine for punctuating pauses.

Dashes are used a bit like parentheses to offset a particular idea:

"The castle was built by King William—the first of that name—to house his elderly mother."

Sometimes those overlap, and you could use either. Then it comes down to which feels right. To my ear, a dash is usually more matter-of-fact, an ellipsis suggests a longer pause and more of an evolution in meaning.

A: "The manor house belonged to Lady Birdsworth—until she lost it in a game of whist—and so it is decorated in her beloved purple."
B: "The manor house belonged to Lady Birdsworth...until she lost it in a game of whist...and so it is decorated in her beloved purple."

To my ear, option A makes that clause a straightforward statement of fact with no particular weight attached to it. The speaker might just be clarifying the situation to avoid giving the wrong impression.

Option B puts a bit more weight on the clause. Perhaps the speaker is a member of the Anti-Whist League and wants to emphasise the evils of whist. Perhaps they dislike Lady Birdsworth and want to emphasise her profligacy. Or perhaps they're hinting at the involvement of a known card sharper who was mentioned three pages earlier.

But I'm interested to hear if other readers would feel that same difference between — and ... there. Perhaps it's just me?

 

[jaF0]

To toss you a curve (or two), where would you use a Tilde ( ~ ), or would you?

 

[legerdemer]

Ellipses (...) are fine for punctuating pauses.

Dashes are used a bit like parentheses to offset a particular idea:

"The castle was built by King William—the first of that name—to house his elderly mother."

Sometimes those overlap, and you could use either. Then it comes down to which feels right. To my ear, a dash is usually more matter-of-fact, an ellipsis suggests a longer pause and more of an evolution in meaning.

A: "The manor house belonged to Lady Birdsworth—until she lost it in a game of whist—and so it is decorated in her beloved purple."
B: "The manor house belonged to Lady Birdsworth...until she lost it in a game of whist...and so it is decorated in her beloved purple."

To my ear, option A makes that clause a straightforward statement of fact with no particular weight attached to it. The speaker might just be clarifying the situation to avoid giving the wrong impression.

Option B puts a bit more weight on the clause. Perhaps the speaker is a member of the Anti-Whist League and wants to emphasise the evils of whist. Perhaps they dislike Lady Birdsworth and want to emphasise her profligacy. Or perhaps they're hinting at the involvement of a known card sharper who was mentioned three pages earlier.

But I'm interested to hear if other readers would feel that same difference between — and ... there. Perhaps it's just me?

Not sure exactly where I got this, but the ellipsis seems to me to add a measure of wistfulness, a psychological trailing off in thought and volume, an unsaid continuation of the same idea. The em dashes seem to me, as you said, to function close to parentheses, but don't set off the enclosed phrase or thoughts from the rest of the sentence as the parentheses. In both the case of em dashes and parentheses the enclosed words could easily be left out, and you can more easily skip over them in the case of the parentheses. The latter do have more of a dusty, scholarly whiff about them than the former, though.

All of the above is my own interpretation and adopted usage. I use them all fairly often, while trying not to overuse them.

 

[ElectricBlue]

This is probably a dumb question, but I've been using "..." instead of " - " to show pauses in dialog. Is the " - " the accepted standard?

An ellipsis ... is an accepted punctuation for a pause or a break in flow, especially in dialogue; but also (perhaps less so) in straight narrative. A dash is more a juxtaposition of thought - it is with me, anyway.

I'm not sure (this being the English language and as many ways to write it as there are ways to speak it) that there is an "accepted standard" (singular). There may be an American standard versus an English standard, and as we keep discovering, they are not always the same. And in Australia, sometimes different again.*

Consistency is the thing - if you are going punctuate, do it consistently within a story, readers will soon figure it out and get the rhythm of your writing ... which is why we use different pause indicators in the first place, to pace ourselves, to find our beat.

It's a bit like a drum kit but in reverse - sometimes the emphasis comes from a crack on the snare, sometimes from the kick drum, sometimes from a cymbal splash. Pauses in writing are the same: sometimes it's a little beat, sometimes it's a longer beat; sometimes it's a hiccup ... and a recovering ... beat. Sometimes it's a complete stop. And sometimes, just sometimes - it's something completely different. That's the best analogy I can think of.

* we do it properly, but just couldn't be assed explaining it all the folk in the northern hemisphere, who are all upside down anyway.... You do know all the maps are printed wrong?!

 

[NotWise]

The em dashes seem to me, as you said, to function close to parentheses, but don't set off the enclosed phrase or thoughts from the rest of the sentence as the parentheses. In both the case of em dashes and parentheses the enclosed words could easily be left out, and you can more easily skip over them in the case of the parentheses.

I use em dashes more often to add emphasis to the material between them, rather than making them something that can be left out.

Strunk and White isn't the accepted authority any more, but I think they have at least an historic influence. Regarding parentheses, they said something like "There's nothing you want to put in parentheses that I want to read."

I've always found that to be strong discouragement for the use of parentheses. I've spent years now editing them out of our technical reports and I see little use for them in fiction.

 

[sr71plt]

No spaces around em dashes in American publishing.

 

[Bramblethorn]

To toss you a curve (or two), where would you use a Tilde ( ~ ), or would you?

In combination with another character, if I was writing a name like "Nuñoz". As a separate character...pretty much never, in fiction. Aside from programming contexts it's mostly an informal way to write "approximately", and too informal for most fiction unless I'm quoting somebody who writes that way.

As a scene separator, perhaps.

 

[LadyVer]

No spaces around em dashes in American publishing.

Isn't this really more of an issue of style? Chicago (traditional publishing) vs AP (journalism). Personally, I cringe when I see spaces used with an em dash. It just looks weird to me.

 

[sr71plt]

Isn't this really more of an issue of style? Chicago (traditional publishing) vs AP (journalism). Personally, I cringe when I see spaces used with an em dash. It just looks weird to me.

I can't check my AP style guide as I'm across the country from it at the moment. But it doesn't really matter. What is written for Literotica is humanities prose, which comes under the Chicago Manual of Style, not AP style, which is for news reporting, not fiction.

 

[LadyVer]

I can't check my AP style guide as I'm across the country from it at the moment. But it doesn't really matter. What is written for Literotica is humanities prose, which comes under the Chicago Manual of Style, not AP style, which is for news reporting, not fiction.

I should have clarified. Chicago, em dash, no spaces. AP, journalism, em dash, with spaces.

 

[sr71plt]

I should have clarified. Chicago, em dash, no spaces. AP, journalism, em dash, with spaces.

I understood that. AP is irrelevant to Literotica writing, though, so no need to consider what AP guidance is here.

 

[LadyVer]

I understood that. AP is irrelevant to Literotica writing, though, so no need to consider what AP guidance is here.

I think it's a good thing to clarify the styles.

 

[sr71plt]

I think it's a good thing to clarify the styles.

I think it only confuses writers on Literotica to be given styles that are irrelevant to what is written to Literotica.

 

[navycolt]

That's more of a British/American thing than a style manual thing. The Brits use an en dash with a space on both sides. We use an em dash with no spaces.

 

[NotWise]

Laurel doesn't enforce standards a lot, but officially it's only the Chicago Manual of Style that counts for Lit. British style, AP style, how to punctuate Nahuatl...that's just confusing stuff for poor plebes like me.