Literotica and Patreon

[lovecraft68]

I've thought about this enough that I'd like to finally put it out here to see what others think.

For those who don't know what Patreon is, its pretty much a gofundme type thing. Whatever it is you sell, music, books, art etc...you try to get people to pledge to pay you X amount for each song, story picture you come out with. People can pledge a fixed amount or just donate whatever whenever, usually through Paypal.

The person many times offers incentives to get the pledge. Example would be for a writer if you donate X amount you'll get a PDF of an unreleased e-book or a signed paperback, you get the point.

There are more and more authors doing this here and at least a couple are offering things like for X donation I'll send you my latest story or chapter before it posts on lit as a gift.

So here's my question...should this be allowed on a free writing site? Should people be directly using this platform to cash in? To me, it seems unfair to lit to have people profiting from it in that manner.

Yes, lit allows us to post links to our paid material here, but we're also still providing free content to their site. For example, you have to be a lit author to promote in the book thread. So why is it okay for people to be cashing in on what is supposed to be free content?

I know the other side of the coin is no one is forcing readers to donate, but dangling the carrot of advanced reads of stories or stories that will never be seen here by anyone other than those who donate...

It just doesn't seem quite right to me and curious how others see this. Big bonus if Laurel popped in and explained her stance on it yay or nay and the reasoning.

 

[SimonDoom]

Not that I can speak for the owners of the site, but I think the bottom line for Lit is whether the practice adds to or detracts from the value it provides. Lit has a very simple model -- it's free, and it doesn't put a lot of restrictions on people. The result is it's very popular. Some authors may use Lit to promote their own work, but if Lit restricted those products authors might go to another site.

I don't know for sure but I doubt it's worthwhile for the Lit's owners to set and enforce rules against practices like these. Lit would lose more in terms of enforcement costs and loss of authors than it would gain. So, questions of "fairness" probably don't come into play. It's not unfair from the standpoint of the reader or author/contributor because when you come to the site you know what you are getting.

 

[jezzaz]

Not that I can speak for the owners of the site, but I think the bottom line for Lit is whether the practice adds to or detracts from the value it provides. Lit has a very simple model -- it's free, and it doesn't put a lot of restrictions on people. The result is it's very popular. Some authors may use Lit to promote their own work, but if Lit restricted those products authors might go to another site.

I don't know for sure but I doubt it's worthwhile for the Lit's owners to set and enforce rules against practices like these. Lit would lose more in terms of enforcement costs and loss of authors than it would gain. So, questions of "fairness" probably don't come into play. It's not unfair from the standpoint of the reader or author/contributor because when you come to the site you know what you are getting.

Yeah, you might want to rethink what you think it's good for what Lit Owners to enforce or not.

Lit is not a free website. It's for profit. Laural and Manu have a vested interest in driving people here to read their stories because it's ad driven. The moment they go elsewhere, Laural and Manu don't profit.

And that's the underlying premise of pretty much every policy here.

Laural will not allow stories posted with any amount of self promotion to any other website, regardless of what it is. Up to and including the ability of an author to include a twitter handle in it.

I'd suggest you try putting a story up that mentions patreon in it, and gives any directions on how to find it, and see what happens. I pretty much guarantee that will be pushed back to you, with comments about how that is inadmissible on this site.

The bottom line is that this might be unfair to authors, but this is Laural and Manu's website, and their rules are the bottom line. And their rules are about providing this place for free, and making them a living, not making a living for authors.

And yes, several authors have left over exactly this. Daniel Q. Steele, StangStar06 and others have left precisely because they are limited at what self promotion is allowed.

 

[lovecraft68]

Yeah, you might want to rethink what you think it's good for what Lit Owners to enforce or not.

Lit is not a free website. It's for profit. Laural and Manu have a vested interest in driving people here to read their stories because it's ad driven. The moment they go elsewhere, Laural and Manu don't profit.

And that's the underlying premise of pretty much every policy here.

Laural will not allow stories posted with any amount of self promotion to any other website, regardless of what it is. Up to and including the ability of an author to include a twitter handle in it.

I'd suggest you try putting a story up that mentions patreon in it, and gives any directions on how to find it, and see what happens. I pretty much guarantee that will be pushed back to you, with comments about how that is inadmissible on this site.

The bottom line is that this might be unfair to authors, but this is Laural and Manu's website, and their rules are the bottom line. And their rules are about providing this place for free, and making them a living, not making a living for authors.

And yes, several authors have left over exactly this. Daniel Q. Steele, StangStar06 and others have left precisely because they are limited at what self promotion is allowed.

I agree, lit is a business. They have advertising and sponsors and that means they are making money here. How much doesn't matter, just the fact it is an income source to them.

For people who sell in the paid market we can advertise that here, but we're also still providing the free stuff and if people do follow an author's amazon link and grab a book there it's not really a conflict of interest to lit because they had to be here to see that link.

But the patreon thing to me is literally using lits platform-which is one that provides free story content-to make money on that same content.

Lit has a rule that you are not supposed to start a series here, then finish it on a paid site. In other words, bait the hook here for free then force the reader to pay for the rest of it. At that point that's using lits platform to lure people into paying for what should be free. I see this as similar.

 

[sr71plt]

Laural and Manu have a vested interest in driving people here to read their stories because it's ad driven. The moment they go elsewhere, Laural and Manu don't profit.

My observation is that Laurel and Manu just let the chips fall where they may on author retention (or consideration of the authors). In my early days here, I saw three best-selling authors from the publishing world, who undoubtedly pulled readers into here based on where they were on the favorite authors list, throw down "him or me" gauntlets on nasty harassment from Scouries, and the Web site let them go without even a "thank you for pulling your fan clubs into here." I've seen no acknowledgement or hint of realization that the authors are providing the product essentially for free here.

On the other question--of allowing advertising here, which I was very recently attacked in the AH on when I advertise less that even some of the others posting to the thread (no links to a paying site in my posts)--I think it should be a graduated consideration by the Web site, linked to product provided to the Web site. I think regular (at least one story every two months) and current (latest story no older than six months) authors should be given a lot more support for their presence in the marketing world (which also brings benefit to Literotica for the stories that author posts here for free read) than someone who has only provided a few stories here and not recently.

 

[GoldenCojones]

I guess I think of it a little differently. The story belongs to the author. If he or she chooses to give it to someone prior to posting on lit, for whatever reason, they have that right. If they put on the Patreon web site that it will eventually be submitted to Literotica, they are actually giving Lit free publicity. So in that vein, I don't see why Laurel or Manu would have an issue with it. They still get the story and they get a little free eye space to boot.

I see that as very different than starting a story here but finishing it on a paid site. I can understand why they wouldn't want that because it makes them look bad, like a bait and switch.

I don't know. This is just my opinion.

 

[RejectReality]

It's more or less a moot point. Lit could block people from linking to Patreon, but if they don't block people from linking to anywhere at all, it's a simple matter to put a huge banner on the front page of your blog, forum or website linking to it.

So the people who are going to abuse it will abuse it.

If someone is abusing the system by not eventually providing the content on Lit for free to those who don't choose to donate, report them and link to the Patreon page. If they're outside the bounds of what Laurel thinks is acceptable, she can take action from there.

The readership would probably take care of policing any such abuses, however. The type of loyal following who would be willing to donate on a Patreon page are also the type of people who are going to be royally offended if that person goes back on their word and stops posting the work for free. The comments sections of their stories would be filled with warnings, and the scam would fall apart quickly.

So long as someone continues to provide the main content ( excluding a few Patreon perks ) on Lit, I see no issue and no real conflict. I assume Patreon allows links to member sites, so the Patreon pages could even be driving a bit of traffic to Lit either directly or indirectly through links to personal websites that then link to Lit.

It's a completely different animal from posting chapters 1-19 of a story on Lit and then forcing someone to buy the Ebook to read chapter 20.

 

[jezzaz]

I guess I think of it a little differently. The story belongs to the author. If he or she chooses to give it to someone prior to posting on lit, for whatever reason, they have that right. If they put on the Patreon web site that it will eventually be submitted to Literotica, they are actually giving Lit free publicity. So in that vein, I don't see why Laurel or Manu would have an issue with it. They still get the story and they get a little free eye space to boot.

I see that as very different than starting a story here but finishing it on a paid site. I can understand why they wouldn't want that because it makes them look bad, like a bait and switch.

I don't know. This is just my opinion.

I think we are talking about two different things here.

If you want to put your story anywhere else, that's fine. Laural and Manu couldn't care less. I post my stuff on SOL too, and am about to do some ebooks of them. More power to me.

However, if you try and say in the header of the story published on lit that the story exists elsewhere, or you have a Pateron, that won't fly. While you can publish and do what you want with YOUR story - and you are totally right, it's yours, not theirs - you CANNOT make reference to that here on Literotica, at least not in the published stories section.

The idea is that for the Literotica casual viewer, they ONLY ever see that their favorite stories are ONLY available here on Lit. That's only good business sense for Laural and Manu, although it sucks out loud for those of us who would like to make a return on investment for writing.

Lit is not about making authors money. It's about making Laural and Manu money. Those are the rules here, and either you accept them or you don't.

What we do in the forums with sigs is significantly different from what the owners will allow on the actual published stories page.

 

[jomar]

LOL, I thought autospell corrected Patron and you were gonna say how much better Lit was with the glow of a few shots.

Authors aren't all that supported here because the monay lies elsewhere. And less attention to the writing side has evolved over time since I've been here, though it's a loss leader draw.

 

[Nezhul]

Lit deals in quantity, not quality. Its not interested in keeping good authors, because 10 shitty stories is better than 1 good one, when it comes to views and ad value.

They don't want your fan base to start reading your stories from amazon rather than lit, that's why they won't allow any promotion.

Similarly, they don't want you to develop any special relationship with your readers on patreon. No, they want your readers checking your stories only on lit, and heaven forbid enabling you to somehow let them read any ammount of your content off the site.

 

[sr71plt]

Lit deals in quantity, not quality. Its not interested in keeping good authors, because 10 shitty stories is better than 1 good one, when it comes to views and ad value.

I don't think they are that intentional about their author pool. Again, I think they just let the chips fall where they may. And they obviously have some interest in quality issues (in contrast to most story sites), because they take the time and effort to do at least a minimal selection check on the story entries and they'll come back and review posted stories if a problem is flagged on them.

 

[RejectReality]

You're not allowed to promote off-Lit work in your submissions or in non-sanctioned thread on the forum. You can't link to other story sites.

That's pretty much it.

There's a thread specifically to promote your paid work right here in the AH so long as you're Lit published. You can promote your paid work in your signature so long as you're Lit published. You're allowed to link to your website, blog, etc. in your bio, which in turn can link to everywhere your work is published. You can mention your paid work, website, etc. in your Bio.

Lit is actually pretty liberal with allowing your to promote your paid work. Most either don't let you do it at all, or only allow it if you're published through their pay-publishing arm. If people aren't willing to click from your submissions page to your bio page to find out about your other work, what makes you think they're going to bother following a link in a story to it?

URLs aren't forever. That's as much the reason why links to anywhere but Lit aren't allowed in story text as anything. What links to your website today could link to a KKK site tomorrow. Once it's discovered ( If it's discovered ) every place you've linked to it has to be scrubbed. If that's only your Bio, it takes a second. If it's every one of your stories, it's a chore.

Unless you remove them, your stories are also here for as long as Lit is. If you let your website go defunct, it becomes a broken link. If it's on every one of your stories, there are that many broken links which are a problem for Google ranking until if and when they are discovered. If it's only one link in your Bio, not so much a problem.

And this nonsense about ads...

Look at the ads. Think back. Have they ever changed for as long as you've been here? They're all promoting a Lit-branded portal of a nude chat site.

Every. One.

Lit isn't courting advertisers. If they were, all they would have to do is flash their top 2000 sites Google ranking.

 

[lovecraft68]

You're not allowed to promote off-Lit work in your submissions or in non-sanctioned thread on the forum. You can't link to other story sites.

That's pretty much it.

There's a thread specifically to promote your paid work right here in the AH so long as you're Lit published. You can promote your paid work in your signature so long as you're Lit published. You're allowed to link to your website, blog, etc. in your bio, which in turn can link to everywhere your work is published. You can mention your paid work, website, etc. in your Bio.

Lit is actually pretty liberal with allowing your to promote your paid work. Most either don't let you do it at all, or only allow it if you're published through their pay-publishing arm. If people aren't willing to click from your submissions page to your bio page to find out about your other work, what makes you think they're going to bother following a link in a story to it?

URLs aren't forever. That's as much the reason why links to anywhere but Lit aren't allowed in story text as anything. What links to your website today could link to a KKK site tomorrow. Once it's discovered ( If it's discovered ) every place you've linked to it has to be scrubbed. If that's only your Bio, it takes a second. If it's every one of your stories, it's a chore.

Unless you remove them, your stories are also here for as long as Lit is. If you let your website go defunct, it becomes a broken link. If it's on every one of your stories, there are that many broken links which are a problem for Google ranking until if and when they are discovered. If it's only one link in your Bio, not so much a problem.

And this nonsense about ads...

Look at the ads. Think back. Have they ever changed for as long as you've been here? They're all promoting a Lit-branded portal of a nude chat site.

Every. One.

Lit isn't courting advertisers. If they were, all they would have to do is flash their top 2000 sites Google ranking.

Actually I have seen some new ads for movies that came out less than a decade ago recently. I know because I did a double take when I clicked an incest story and it wasn't that same ad for "Its okay, she's my step daughter" that I've bee staring at pretty much since I came here

 

[lovecraft68]

I don't think they are that intentional about their author pool. Again, I think they just let the chips fall where they may. And they obviously have some interest in quality issues (in contrast to most story sites), because they take the time and effort to do at least a minimal selection check on the story entries and they'll come back and review posted stories if a problem is flagged on them.

The only interest lit has in issues is personal ones. This is a business that is run with personal agenda. Every rule is not a black and white as it should be its a matter of did this story offend the editor, if not it can offend everyone else. Political beliefs, favoritism, and the biggest culprit apathy is what dictates what is and is not allowed on this site.

Look at the GB, some members have been banned for discussing underage, while one of the GB's biggest ass kissers constantly goes on and on about it. No rape is a rule here, but another board toady has started countless threads discussing and making light of it.

Bringing it closer ti home in the AH, people have had links or posts removed as 'spam' because they're linking to a personal blog, but a poster here-and you know who I mean-is not just linking their blog, but every other post is "You can check it out on my blog" and that's just fine.

As for them taking the time to review a complaint? Depends on who wrote the story or how popular it or the author is. A new author or someone who hasn't put anything here in years? A rule breaking story may be pulled.

A current popular author or a top list story? It can break every rule blatantly and will remain here. I know because I've reported several over the years and it has to be 100% in your face are you kidding me, rule breaking for me to do that.

You're talking about a site that in last years Halloween contest let a story with Santa in the title and a note saying it was a Christmas story into the contest.

My question was more about getting the opinions of what others thought just in the sense of starting a discussion about a topic that confuses me as to why its allowed here as in its a conflict of interest-or seems to be anyway.

As far as rules and policies go, they're an absolute joke.

I think many of us here, in fact I would hazard to say everyone here knows this site could be so much better with a little more effort and a lot more consistency and something called professionalism and that last one would mean being across the board fair and not being a little kid picking and choosing who they think is cool or not.

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

I have absolutely no idea what the so-called 'business model' is behind this site and I don't want to know either.

This place works for me.

Of course writers' desires to find at least SOME meaningful financial and commercial pathway for what they do is understandable and valid...

But...

Writing has never been that kind of thing - Victor Hugo will tell you so. Sure there are a lot of liars and a lot of politically-promoted and printer/publisher scams down through the years that make it appear as if great writers are actually welcomed by human society; but they are not. They are ABSOLUTELY DETESTED.

All writers should starve and die in a garret if it were up to 'normal people.' And the crowd would be jeering on outside.

The world would be 'far better off' if there were absolutely no writers at all.

But alas for 'you,' (the poor unsuspecting 'ordinary' person or the billionaire who thinks they run the world) that is not why we are here. I at least, KNOW why I am.

...Some of us, they pay - at least eventually they DO - to get us to stfu.

If nobody wants you dead - as a writer - then you are not doing your job properly.

Making money from writing is about taking the public hostage and holding them for ransom.

 

[Kantarii]

I have three lady friends I have known online for about 3-4 years now. I send them advanced copies of my newest chapters days before I post them to Lit to get their input and a few extra eyes on the chapter to spot any mistakes I may have missed. Would I want to make $ on a site that is free.... No. I do this as a hobby and pass time. I make my money doing more creative forms of artistic expression etching glass or drawing. Kant

 

[GoldenCojones]

I think we are talking about two different things here.

If you want to put your story anywhere else, that's fine. Laural and Manu couldn't care less. I post my stuff on SOL too, and am about to do some ebooks of them. More power to me.

However, if you try and say in the header of the story published on lit that the story exists elsewhere, or you have a Pateron, that won't fly. While you can publish and do what you want with YOUR story - and you are totally right, it's yours, not theirs - you CANNOT make reference to that here on Literotica, at least not in the published stories section.

The idea is that for the Literotica casual viewer, they ONLY ever see that their favorite stories are ONLY available here on Lit. That's only good business sense for Laural and Manu, although it sucks out loud for those of us who would like to make a return on investment for writing.

Lit is not about making authors money. It's about making Laural and Manu money. Those are the rules here, and either you accept them or you don't.

What we do in the forums with sigs is significantly different from what the owners will allow on the actual published stories page.

Ah, I misunderstood. I didn't realize you were saying they advertised their Pateron in the header of the story on lit. I thought you were saying that on their Pateron page they were advertising that, for a donation, they would get the story before it was posted on lit. My bad.

I agree with you then, advertising their Pateron page in their story posted on lit would be wrong.