Adverbs...

[lovecraft68]

Grammar is not my strong suit as I've said many times(and all my readers here know) so I have an editor for my for pay projects. They're good with grammar and assorted other things, but there is one thing that drives me nuts...

They're obsessed with adverbs. Now most things I've read tell you to avoid them if you can. I know King talks about it a lot. I think they're necessary, but to a degree.

My editor not only uses them, but I swear they make no sense at all and they're just tossing shit out there. Here's some examples.

She gently winked...okay..if you could gently wink, well conversely you could roughly wink, right? How does one do either? Shouldn't wink suffice?

He was obscurely proud of the fact... say what?

Her willingness to do anything he asked was transparently visible. Okay even I knew this isn't just an extraneous adverb but a contradiction


“Thought you never did something for nothing,” she taunted wryly...why the hell can't she just taunt?

These are four examples in two chapter of a 120k novel...this is going to be maddening.


Point of the thread...is it me? Do people speak like this, think like this? It sounds forced to me and unnecessary?

Agree, disagree? Opinions?

 

[MindsMirror]

We prefer adverbs that come after for some reason.

She winked (awkwardly/oddly/demurely... ).

-MM

 

[NotWise]

Point of the thread...is it me? Do people speak like this, think like this? It sounds forced to me and unnecessary?

Agree, disagree? Opinions?

I'm sure there are exceptions, but usually if I find extraneous adverbs like those I get rid of them. I know I write them on the first time through, but I try to get rid of them before I even get out of the paragraph.

I can imagine a difference between "gently winked" and "roughly winked" but I don't see a need for it. Shouldn't the character and the context of the story set the nature of the action? If it doesn't then maybe you need them--or maybe you need a different story.

Do disagreements with your editor usually work out well?

 

[lovecraft68]

I'm sure there are exceptions, but usually if I find extraneous adverbs like those I get rid of them. I know I write them on the first time through, but I try to get rid of them before I even get out of the paragraph.

I can imagine a difference between "gently winked" and "roughly winked" but I don't see a need for it. Shouldn't the character and the context of the story set the nature of the action? If it doesn't then maybe you need them--or maybe you need a different story.

Do disagreements with your editor usually work out well?

Most of the time it's me not accepting the change and I'll get a brief protest of how it dresses up my story if I keep them but they arent pushy.

I agree the scene- especially dialgue should give the reader the context of a wink. I tend to use playful as a descriptive for a wink rather than an adverb.

I think it comes down to extra adverbs in particular the ones that aren't common just isn't my "voice"

 

[sr71plt]

If your editor is salting in words like that, it's time for a new editor, I think.

 

[SimonDoom]

Grammar is not my strong suit as I've said many times(and all my readers here know) so I have an editor for my for pay projects. They're good with grammar and assorted other things, but there is one thing that drives me nuts...

They're obsessed with adverbs. Now most things I've read tell you to avoid them if you can. I know King talks about it a lot. I think they're necessary, but to a degree.

My editor not only uses them, but I swear they make no sense at all and they're just tossing shit out there. Here's some examples.

She gently winked...okay..if you could gently wink, well conversely you could roughly wink, right? How does one do either? Shouldn't wink suffice?

He was obscurely proud of the fact... say what?

Her willingness to do anything he asked was transparently visible. Okay even I knew this isn't just an extraneous adverb but pretty redundant.


“Thought you never did something for nothing,” she taunted wryly...why the hell can't she just taunt?

These are four examples in two chapter of a 120k novel...this is going to be maddening.


Point of the thread...is it me? Do people speak like this, think like this? It sounds forced to me and unnecessary?

Agree, disagree? Opinions?

Agree with you, strongly.

All kidding aside, the examples you give are all good examples of how and when not to use adverbs.

"Gently winked" -- what does that mean? How does "gently" improve the meaning here?

"Obscurely proud" -- even worse.

"taunted wryly" -- these two words don't go together. "Wryly", if it's used at all, is joined with a verb to suggest that the action is different from what it would be if the verb stood by itself. You can smile wryly, for instance. But you can't taunt wryly. You are confusing things if you use "wryly" this way.

"Transparently visible" -- as opposed to what? Opaquely visible? If it's visible you can see it, so what does "transparently" add?

If you look carefully ("carefully", here, is an oK adverb) at your sentences, you'll see that in most cases the adverbs don't add much or anything. They give the appearance of adding or shading meaning, but they don't do so. If you are trying to shade or color the meaning of the verb, in many cases there is a better way to do so.

Indiscriminate and careless use of adverbs is a good sign of amateurish writing.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Grammar is not my strong suit as I've said many times(and all my readers here know) so I have an editor for my for pay projects. They're good with grammar and assorted other things, but there is one thing that drives me nuts...

They're obsessed with adverbs. Now most things I've read tell you to avoid them if you can. I know King talks about it a lot. I think they're necessary, but to a degree.

Yep. Even in the "don't use adverbs" part of On Writing, King himself uses a few adverbs, so don't take it too literally.

I think some of the hostility to adverbs is a "show, don't tell" thing. Take something like this:

"Stay the hell away from my family!" she shouted angrily.

There's no need for the "angrily" to be there. The dialogue already conveys that. Throwing in "angrily" just makes it sound like the author isn't confident about whether the dialogue has conveyed that tone.

My editor not only uses them, but I swear they make no sense at all and they're just tossing shit out there. Here's some examples.

Ugh. I agree with you, these are unnecessary, and I don't think it's really the editor's job to be adding them in sentences that work without them. Like you say, your voice.

 

[sr71plt]

Ugh. I agree with you, these are unnecessary, and I don't think it's really the editor's job to be adding them in sentences that work without them. Like you say, your voice.

This. What I take from the OP is that the editor is adding these words. They aren't there to begin with. Gotta tell you, LC, a trained editor doesn't add words like this to the copy. So, I question whether you really have an editor at all.

 

[TxRad]

This. What I take from the OP is that the editor is adding these words. They aren't there to begin with. Gotta tell you, LC, a trained editor doesn't add words like this to the copy. So, I question whether you really have an editor at all.

Pretty much my thoughts. One here and there maybe but more than that is a problem. Both of my editors may make a word substitution but it is always in the form of a question.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Who is the writer again?

Those examples start to imply a whole bunch of things about your characters, that if you the writer don't know about, is going to be a worry. You'll end up writing personality set A, your editor is going to give you personality set B, the reader ends up with alphabet soup.

Who's in charge here, anyway? It's not like you to be a puppet, LC. Man up, mate, tell him/her who's the boss!

 

[CarlusMagnus]

…I have an editor for my for pay projects.

Where did this editor come from?

Foisted on you by a publisher? Time to talk, softly, urgently, carefully, and pleadingly, to the publisher about the editor's qualifications.

An "editor" of the kind you can find on Lit? Probably not. I'm sure you know that Lit's "editor"s are just random people who are capable of saying "Yeah! I'm an editor!" But if so, maybe you should be looking elsewhere.

I agree that "Don't use adverbs" is bullshit. But so is "Insert adverbs just for fun." Say precisely what you want to say--and be parsimonious when you do so.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

The adverb's job is to guide your audience towards your point. Adverbs alert writers to loose ends. The adverb is an appromimation for a result.

 

[TxRad]

Thank you for that reply JBJ. The only problem is it doesn't answer the question asked as usual.

 

[lovecraft68]

This. What I take from the OP is that the editor is adding these words. They aren't there to begin with. Gotta tell you, LC, a trained editor doesn't add words like this to the copy. So, I question whether you really have an editor at all.

Yes, I'm getting to believe that myself which is why I figured I'd start a thread here and see what people here think.

Punctuation wise, they're excellent and they've done a good job with suggestions of what doesn't need to be there, which is a big deal for me who suffers from being a little to self indulgent.

However, when it comes to what they refer to as dressing up, or mixing in words that that I would never use, its an issue. I find it odd because if anything, most editors are trying to get you to cut words, not add.

We all have our own styles and one thing I've gotten from people both on lit and readers outside of lit is I have for lack of a better term an 'easy style' I don't use purple prose or ten dollar words and I'm not flowery. I'm kind of basic for lack of a better term, as someone said, reading my stories is like kicking back in a comfortable armchair.

So additional words, especially these oddball ones, really jump out to me so I assume they would the reader as well.

Time to start searching again....sighs dramatically

 

[lovecraft68]

Where did this editor come from?

Foisted on you by a publisher? Time to talk, softly, urgently, carefully, and pleadingly, to the publisher about the editor's qualifications.

An "editor" of the kind you can find on Lit? Probably not. I'm sure you know that Lit's "editor"s are just random people who are capable of saying "Yeah! I'm an editor!" But if so, maybe you should be looking elsewhere.

I agree that "Don't use adverbs" is bullshit. But so is "Insert adverbs just for fun." Say precisely what you want to say--and be parsimonious when you do so.

This is someone who has quite a library of their own stuff published and was recommended to me, no connection with lit at all.

And yes, I have no issue with some adverbs. Why would they exist if we were never supposed to use them is my unprofessional theory.

 

[lovecraft68]

Pretty much my thoughts. One here and there maybe but more than that is a problem. Both of my editors may make a word substitution but it is always in the form of a question.

Why are you posting on my thread? Didn't you just post you hated my guts on another thread? Scram old man! Hobble along limpingly or something like that

They have it in red when they add something and I accept or reject, but it could be simply added in and I'd catch it because I would never 'say' that.

Thanks for weighing in and affirming what I've been thinking of late.

 

[Handley_Page]

I'm not very good at English; I have trouble with parts of speech and stuff like that.
Conjunctions ? WTF ? Adverbs ? Well, I might., . . .

But it seems to me that a lot depends upon what the author is trying to say or describe.

Bramblethorne:-
"Stay the hell away from my family!" she shouted angrily.

There's no need for the "angrily" to be there. The dialogue already conveys that. Throwing in "angrily" just makes it sound like the author isn't confident about whether the dialogue has conveyed that tone.

I think that "angrily" might be the right word, depending upon the general tone of the described conversation. It might, for example, have been said with menace or in a jocular manner.

Simon Doom:-
"taunted wryly" -- these two words don't go together. "Wryly", if it's used at all, is joined with a verb to suggest that the action is different from what it would be if the verb stood by itself. You can smile wryly, for instance. But you can't taunt wryly. You are confusing things if you use "wryly" this way.


I think they do go together - at times.
There's an underlying layer of humour. Without the wry bit, it might simply be insulting or worse.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

LIT writers think this: ANCHOVIES TASTE GREAT ON MY PIZZA, LEMME TRY SOME ON MY CORNFLAKES!

Most here are shit for brains and devote zero thought to the nuts and bolts of better composition.

 

[sr71plt]

Yes, I'm getting to believe that myself which is why I figured I'd start a thread here and see what people here think.

Punctuation wise, they're excellent and they've done a good job with suggestions of what doesn't need to be there, which is a big deal for me who suffers from being a little to self indulgent.

However, when it comes to what they refer to as dressing up, or mixing in words that that I would never use, its an issue. I find it odd because if anything, most editors are trying to get you to cut words, not add.

We all have our own styles and one thing I've gotten from people both on lit and readers outside of lit is I have for lack of a better term an 'easy style' I don't use purple prose or ten dollar words and I'm not flowery. I'm kind of basic for lack of a better term, as someone said, reading my stories is like kicking back in a comfortable armchair.

So additional words, especially these oddball ones, really jump out to me so I assume they would the reader as well.

Time to start searching again....sighs dramatically

If this beta reader is helpful in some dimensions, there's no reason not to continue with her/him and take what you think is helpful and discard the rest. I'm assuming that you are publishing these yourself and are thus the last word on what gets published. It's a hard go if the editor is provided by the publisher, who is going to be the one who decides what gets published.

 

[sr71plt]

LIT writers think this: ANCHOVIES TASTE GREAT ON MY PIZZA, LEMME TRY SOME ON MY CORNFLAKES!

Most here are shit for brains and devote zero thought to the nuts and bolts of better composition.

Yes, yes, we know you are on the Lit. forum today, James, and waving your hand vigorously for attention.

 

[MindsMirror]

Bramblethorne:-
"Stay the hell away from my family!" she shouted angrily.

There's no need for the "angrily" to be there.

Maybe it is redundant, but not everyone thinks the same way. It's an assumption that may not be logical. Shouting may not mean that anger was the emotion.

"Stay the hell away from my family!" he shouted jokingly.
"Stay the hell away from my family!" he shouted desperately.

Maybe other verbs for shouting would remove the ambiguity, (barked, pleaded, ...). But to us they seem like syntactical sugar that assure the reader of what they thought.

Some languages have a lot more matchy-matchy bits to make sure meaning isn't lost (German comes to mind).

-MM

 

[NotWise]

Maybe it is redundant, but not everyone thinks the same way. It's an assumption that may not be logical. Shouting may not mean that anger was the emotion.

"Stay the hell away from my family!" he shouted jokingly.
"Stay the hell away from my family!" he shouted desperately.

Maybe other verbs for shouting would remove the ambiguity, (barked, pleaded, ...). But to us they seem like syntactical sugar that assure the reader of what they thought.

Some languages have a lot more matchy-matchy bits to make sure meaning isn't lost (German comes to mind).

-MM

I think the story context probably clears up the ambiguity.

 

[moncrief_the_advocate]

Adverbs are terrible. They weaken the writing and make you lazy. Why add any action to dialogue if you can just add an adverb to the speaker tag? *facepalm*

And all the examples OP used don't make a lick of sense. If you are looking for a different editor, I would be happy to oblige. My apologies for the shameless self promotion.

 

[jehoram]

Bramblethorne:-
Stay the hell away from my family!" she shouted angrily.

There's no need for the "angrily" to be there. The dialogue already conveys that. Throwing in "angrily" just makes it sound like the author isn't confident about whether the dialogue has conveyed that tone. [/FONT]

That would be my test... if the adverb doesn't add to the intensity or clarity of the sentence, out it goes. Same for adjectives, too. The only exception I could think of would be if something about that particular anger needed to be said ("Her voice choked with anger.")

That's just me, though.

 

[moncrief_the_advocate]

That would be my test... if the adverb doesn't add to the intensity or clarity of the sentence, out it goes. Same for adjectives, too. The only exception I could think of would be if something about that particular anger needed to be said ("Her voice choked with anger.")

That's just me, though.

Agree with you there. "Her voice choked with anger" is much better than just writing "she said angrily."