H.R. 899: “The Department of Education shall terminate on December 31, 2018.”

[EternalFantasy]

I tried scanning it. It worked but I can't upload it to Lit in a size that is readable.

It is either far too large or far too blurred if it is small enough.

It was only a detailed proposal that never went anywhere. The author ended up on the wrong side of the Revolution, was arrested and committed 'suicide' after two days in his cell - a convenient suicide because he was popular and if guillotined there might have been protests.

The point of the proposals was to replace the education system devised and run by Catholic Priests. The intention was to have a system from first school to postgraduate that was secular and followed the principles of the Enlightenment. It was to be run by the highest academics, not politicians, which was one of the reasons why it failed. The main reason was the external wars the French were fighting. They couldn't afford schools and teachers.

Many of the principles in the proposals were later adopted by Napoleon in his decrees in education. One that was shocking in 1794 was that ALL teaching must be in French - Not Breton in Brittany; German in Alsace/Lorraine; Basque near the Pyrennees etc. The principle still applies to almost every French state school today, even for immigrants. Don't know French? Tough. Take extra classes outside school until you DO know French. That can be hard on ex-pat English speakers' children who are in France for a short period.

I think you are wrong about the recent changes to the French education system. For decades it has been run by leftish academics by edict from the centre. The changes give more power and flexibility to teachers IN the classroom. It is opposed by the left and the teachers' unions (who are dominated by left politicians) because teachers might actually have to think.

Until recently they could teach exactly the same lesson they taught in the same week last year, and the year before that, and... Now they have to adapt to the needs of the particular children - radical!

The changes may have been introduced by a socialist government but they are more right wing than most teachers want.

Do you think today's academics, or teachers, are perhaps different than those in those times trying to incur that kind of change then?

Don't French teachers today tend to be predominantly leftists ?

If if so, it would be the consequences of socialism as I see it, the left fighting among themselves on who has the say. Or the blind trying to impose on the other blind of sorts...

 

[KingOrfeo]

What works works. A centralized national approach to education is what works. A decentralized, privatized or libertarian approach is not.

 

[oggbashan]

Do you think today's academics, or teachers, are perhaps different than those in those times trying to incur that kind of change then?

Don't French teachers today tend to be predominantly leftists ?

If if so, it would be the consequences of socialism as I see it, the left fighting among themselves on who has the say. Or the blind trying to impose on the other blind of sorts...

French politics doesn't work as people think it should. The changes in education would have led to riots on the street if they had been introduced by a right wing government because they reduce the power of the centre.

But they came from a socialist government so in theory they should be acceptable - but in practice the changes are for LESS government interference. From a socialist government? No wonder the French unions are confused.

French political terms are weird. As an example the town of Calais is run by a Communist council with a Communist Mayor. Despite the label that means they act in a conservative (right wing) way unlike the Socialists who would be in practice Left of the Communists. But which Socialists? There are different varieties of Socialist parties in France and the Communists are not the furthest left...

 

[EternalFantasy]

French politics doesn't work as people think it should. The changes in education would have led to riots on the street if they had been introduced by a right wing government because they reduce the power of the centre.

But they came from a socialist government so in theory they should be acceptable - but in practice the changes are for LESS government interference. From a socialist government? No wonder the French unions are confused.

French political terms are weird. As an example the town of Calais is run by a Communist council with a Communist Mayor. Despite the label that means they act in a conservative (right wing) way unlike the Socialists who would be in practice Left of the Communists. But which Socialists? There are different varieties of Socialist parties in France and the Communists are not the furthest left...

I can't begin to describe to you how the last paragraph is my case and point. But I'll try further below.

On what's above it, I think it's the nature of that beast that's become so big over there hence the confusion. It needs to retain control coz that was the idea, while its parts are - by the same nature - trying to take over in what appears to be a right wing mentality coz it would mean less govt.

It's become the vicious cycle that is the risk of the classical extreme left.

The end result on the students remains the same, and a swirling motion downwards into confusion.

But you get very good designers and poets, due to that increased darkness.

It's frustratingly both good and bad, only bad is stronger over time. If ur catching my drift.

 

[oggbashan]

I can't begin to describe to you how the last paragraph is my case and point. But I'll try further below.

On what's above it, I think it's the nature of that beast that's become so big over there hence the confusion. It needs to retain control coz that was the idea, while its parts are - by the same nature - trying to take over in what appears to be a right wing mentality coz it would mean less govt.

It's become the vicious cycle that is the risk of the classical extreme left.

The end result on the students remains the same, and a swirling motion downwards into confusion.

But you get very good designers and poets, due to that increased darkness.

It's frustratingly both good and bad, only bad is stronger over time. If ur catching my drift.

With France, and French Government, you HAVE to remember Napoleon Bonaparte. He centralised everything and much of France is still run by his rules. His edicts on Education still underlie the whole system from nursery to university. The Code Napoleon is fundamental to European Law but NOT the UK's.

 

[Sean]

Reminds one of 1984 in which Orwell created the "Ministry of Truth" which was constantly at work adjusting the history of events to fortify the policies of Big Brother.

These days that's known and Sean and KellyAnn.

 

[EternalFantasy]

With France, and French Government, you HAVE to remember Napoleon Bonaparte. He centralised everything and much of France is still run by his rules. His edicts on Education still underlie the whole system from nursery to university

.

Quite aware. I'm debating the beast's nature not its wannabe main architect.

The Code Napoleon is fundamental to European Law but NOT the UK's.

Not the US's either; thank God.

 

[oggbashan]

.

Quite aware. I'm debating the beast's nature not its wannabe main architect.

...

You ought to be more polite about Napoleon Bonaparte. Without him you could have lost the War of 1812.

Without the French you would not have had a successful War of Independence. US independence would have come eventually but probably not in the 18th Century.

 

[KingOrfeo]

You ought to be more polite about Napoleon Bonaparte. Without him you could have lost the War of 1812.

Well, we didn't exactly win it, did we? The main point of the war, from America's POV, was to conquer and annex Canada. (Had we succeeded, all those French-language-rights headaches would now be ours.)

 

[oggbashan]

Well, we didn't exactly win it, did we? The main point of the war, from America's POV, was to conquer and annex Canada. (Had we succeeded, all those French-language-rights headaches would now be ours.)

You didn't win it. Neither did the UK.

It was a wholly unnecessary war that should have been avoided but some American hawks thought Britain was too busy fighting France, and some British hawks wanted a re-run of the War of Independence.

 

[EternalFantasy]

You ought to be more polite about Napoleon Bonaparte. Without him you could have lost the War of 1812.

Without the French you would not have had a successful War of Independence. US independence would have come eventually but probably not in the 18th Century.

Another french and/or leftist notion that corrupted the hell out of everyone.

Being indebted to someone shouldn't shame me into doing the wrong thing.

I pay my debts, and say it like it is nonetheless.

Those hiding in safe rooms though, yeah, see you as ungrateful; as well as those snaking around guilting you for their own personal interest.

Not you of course, merely sharing that learned lesson.

 

[Conager]

I'm still waiting for those stats you mentioned earlier, but I would love to see an example of anyone bending to the will of the NEA.

No you aren't, and you certainly would neither love nor acknowlege it, should I be stupid enough to bother.

I, otoh, would truly love to witness you attempting to interact with anyone, on any level in your day-to-day life. Must be facinating to see.

 

[Rightguide]

These days that's known and Sean and KellyAnn.

Not really, they are only two small voices against the cyclonic noise storm of our monolithic establishment press.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

You are not wrong about parents, but that's also exactly what we have now.

Adding another layer of bureaucracy has accomplished exactly nothing. Some people argue (because they don't understand the correlation does not equal causation) that the extra layer of federal bureaucracy has actually hindered education because the statistics do not show improvement in education, rather, a decline during the tenure of the education department.

The truth is that's more reflection on society than federal involvement. Federal involvement at best is feckless.

No you aren't, and you certainly would neither love nor acknowlege it, should I be stupid enough to bother.

I, otoh, would truly love to witness you attempting to interact with anyone, on any level in your day-to-day life. Must be facinating to see.

As a point of fact, I am. You made a claim and when called on it, ran away from backing it up with an AJ like effort. You've now made another claim and refuse to back that up.

 

[Conager]

As a point of fact, I am. You made a claim and when called on it, ran away from backing it up with an AJ like effort. You've now made another claim and refuse to back that up.

So what about it? Favor us with a view into the life and times of Sgt Spidey. What was the last conversation you had?

What was the topic?

Was the person known to you previously?

Were they required to be proximate to you for occupational reasons or because of famlial obligations?

Were you able to get them to provide citations and annotations for any positions they took?

Did they seem to be off-put by the fact that you never take a position on anything?

Was it a tandom bicycle?

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

So what about it? Favor us with a view into the life and times of Sgt Spidey. What was the last conversation you had?

What was the topic?

Was the person known to you previously?

Were they required to be proximate to you for occupational reasons or because of famlial obligations?

Were you able to get them to provide citations and annotations for any positions they took?

Did they seem to be off-put by the fact that you never take a position on anything?

Was it a tandom bicycle?

You got caught making stuff up and now you want to be immature about it.

 

[EternalFantasy]

You got caught making stuff up and now you want to be immature about it.

I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Posting you proof of his claims is no small matter. It's something that happened overtime, and whoever paid attention knows the level has been declining.

Heard of "No child left behind" in Bush times? which was another failure. States started lowering the standards to qualify for funding. the whole thing is a mess.

If you think otherwise, you need to prove it.

Few places have good standards, like Mass.. but they became rare.

 

[Conager]

You got caught making stuff up and now you want to be immature about it.

Do you mean to say you don't have any real life conversations to relate?

Sad.

Maybe if I tell you about my last one it will inspire you to go out and learn how to talk to other human beings. It really is fun. I highly recommend it.

So I struck up a conversation with this guy that was wearing an American Legion hat. I asked him which branch he had served in, it was just a conversational opener. I have found that retired military guys tend to be great racontours.

He freely admitted that he himself had not served although he had been drafted for Vietnam twice and was deferred because of the areas of study that he was engaged in and that his grades were sufficient at the time.

Now, if he had told me that he was in the Navy and had served on the early teams, I would probably listen to and enjoy his stories up until the point that I lost my ability to suspend disbelief but it wouldn't really have mattered one way or the other.

It's entirely possible that he simply burned his draft card or escaped to Canada. I don't actually know why this vietnam-era guy did not end up serving. Maybe was never even drafted perhaps he just got lucky draft number. Wouldn't really a matter to the conversation though because it's a conversation.

He'd lived a number of years in a small town in New Mexico where social life revolved around the Legion Post. Having lived in just such a small town not too far from his I can completely see how that is quite likely and how the hat reminds him of departed friends from that post.

In return I regaled him with my story about how I could have would have should have been a nuclear sub driver and how I scored quite high on the Navy's nuclear science test but declined the recruitment a month before my leg was crushed in a motorcycle accident rendering me ineligible in any case.

You know what I'm sure you are going to find weird? The guy never asked me to prove that I know a damn thing about nuclear science. Even more odd to you, I am sure, is that even though I could easily have done so, the man never asked me to lift my pant leg and prove that I had in fact suffered a high velocity multiple compound fracture of my tibia and fibula three decades ago.

He didn't even call bullshit on my story about having taken off a twin-engine plane from a little dirt strip at the age of five. You see- the reason he didn't was the story had the ring of verity...because it actually is true. All the little details that go into a story that's true sound completely different than one that's made up. You don't really have an ear for it so you probably shouldn't spend a lot of time calling bullshit.

Put your bike in the bike rack, slip your smartphone into your hip pocket and just speak to people. Have actual conversations like people used to have before Google was invented. It is fun. I promise you.

 

[KingOrfeo]

In return I regaled him with my story about how I could have would have should have been a nuclear sub driver and how I scored quite high on the Navy's nuclear science test but declined the recruitment a month before my leg was crushed in a motorcycle accident rendering me ineligible in any case.

You know what I'm sure you are going to find weird? The guy never asked me to prove that I know a damn thing about nuclear science.

In that situation, why on Earth would he?

Even if he had, he probably would not have known whether you were just making up all the words in your answer.

But a messageboard like this one is a different matter.

 

[Conager]

I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Posting you proof of his claims is no small matter. It's something that happened overtime, and whoever paid attention knows the level has been declining.

Heard of "No child left behind" in Bush times? which was another failure. States started lowering the standards to qualify for funding. the whole thing is a mess.

If you think otherwise, you need to prove it.

Few places have good standards, like Mass.. but they became rare.

Not that I would indulge that particular poster, but just for funsies I took a stab at it just to see what sort of stats are readily available.

As you say it's really a can of worms, because of the various metrics you might want to employ and the dearth of nationalised statistics. You would think they would be reams of information available post DOE that were not available prior to that. Oddly, I found the opposite to be true, which in and of itself says something, no?

I thought that perhaps looking at literacy rates in various groups of people might be interesting I found a PDF and went down that rabbit hole reading quite a bit and what was fascinating was how literacy was improving in the US at by a decade by decade accounting but this particular piece stops its table in 1979. What the hel???l something I can access on the internet stops reporting in 1979?

Given that the entire time that the NEA has had the DOE doing its PR work about the worth and value of teachers specifically what it is that we pay them they have continually every single year cried out that they're being paid not enough and that children are suffering. If the Department of Education had somehow improved education wouldn't the children now be suffering less?

 

[Conager]

In that situation, why on Earth would he?

Even if he had, he probably would not have known whether you were just making up all the words in your answer.

But a messageboard like this one is a different matter.

Why would any message board in general, much less this one specifically be a "different matter?"

Why do you feel entitled to DEMAND citations here when you are very much aware that such a conversational style would get you ignored or punched in the non-virtual world?

You want to "embarrass" me with some citation that "proves" me wrong on some particular fact, you are certainly free to do so.

You are not entitled to my labor to educate you on issues that you choose to "educate" yourself by reading exclusively highly partisan sources while demanding others do not cite partisan colored sources.

I noticed that you skipped right past me handing you your ass on that last little time that you demanded a citation. My citations were 100% on point and completely refute your assertions. As per usual cowardly pukes such as yourself who cannot stand up and make a valid argument on their own simply wander away from the conversation when you bother to take the time to show them that they have been snookered by their highly partisan sources.

You won't get the benefit of my tutelge again, you disingenuous fuck.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Why would any message board in general, much less this one specifically be a "different matter?"

Because a messageboard is not a bar, and the people you interact with here are not the same as those you might meet in a bar, and the discussions you have with them do not proceed under the same rules. Different standards apply.

 

[Conager]

Because a messageboard is not a bar, and the people you interact with here are not the same as those you might meet in a bar, and the discussions you have with them do not proceed under the same rules. Different standards apply.

You, obviously, have low standards for bars.

Your answer amounts to: "Because!"

The rules that you allude to, are the ones that you simply make up to suit your own ends and don't follow yourself, you disingenuous fuck.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

You ought to be more polite about Napoleon Bonaparte. Without him you could have lost the War of 1812.

Without the French you would not have had a successful War of Independence. US independence would have come eventually but probably not in the 18th Century.

.....


Never mind.

 

[EternalFantasy]

.....


Never mind.

But.. But.. Do say.

It's those posts that we crave for