How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[KingOrfeo]

I like the Christian apologist J. Warner Wallace. He talks about people not believing in the gospels thinking the gospel writers could have been influenced because they were sympathetic to Jesus and might have been biased. (Although Matthew became a Christ follower later without prior expectation of the Messiah). So he set about finding unfriendly writings that could at least confirm Christ lived and died. Some of the artlcles were from historians who quoted earlier writings that no longer exist but people still tend to believe them more because they were unfriendly to Jesus. J Warner Wallace was an athiest but he used his homicide detective skills to try to solve this cold case of Jesus. He admits that no one can prove the Case for Christ without any doubt but it can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt which is the standard of proof we use in trial. Trials that might send a person to death.

Here is the article about unfriendly pagan and Jewish writings about Jesus if you are interested.

http://coldcasechristianity.com/2014/is-there-any-evidence-for-jesus-outside-the-bible/

I'm familiar with those, but all were written in reaction to the rise of the Christian faith, and not by anyone who claimed to have known Jesus or witnessed any events recounted in the Gospels.

 

[Tryharder62]

I'm familiar with those, but all were written in reaction to the rise of the Christian faith, and not by anyone who claimed to have known Jesus or witnessed any events recounted in the Gospels.

Ummmmm....you are right! However, isn't it interesting that while trying to discredit Christianity none of these people say there was no Christ. These early historians report on his life but discredit his followers who say that he died and was resurrected. Without Christ, there would not be Christianity. Just interesting of you get nothing else from it.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Ummmmm....you are right! However, isn't it interesting that while trying to discredit Christianity none of these people say there was no Christ.

I've never understood why it would occur to anyone to say that. The existence of Christianity is sufficient proof of the existence of Christ; people who earnestly believe in a religion, which the early Christians certainly did if they were willing to die for it, would not simply invent its founder. Why, you might as well doubt the existence of "Bob"!

 

[Hard_Rom]

An itinerant wandering preacher ex-carpenter with a messiah complex in time of Judea's occupation by pagan Romans. Quite likely.

Born of a virgin and visited by three wise men? Sounds like a retelling of the Persian sun god Mithras tale. Died and was resurrected? Unless they come up with a Gospel of Mary, pure hearsay.

Still, the actual words attested to Jesus in some of his sermons are great words to live by. He certainly had a good grasp of the Golden Rules.

 

[KingOrfeo]

An itinerant wandering preacher ex-carpenter with a messiah complex in time of Judea's occupation by pagan Romans. Quite likely.

Born of a virgin and visited by three wise men? Sounds like a retelling of the Persian sun god Mithras tale. Died and was resurrected? Unless they come up with a Gospel of Mary, pure hearsay.

If they do, still hearsay.

Still, the actual words attested to Jesus in some of his sermons are great words to live by. He certainly had a good grasp of the Golden Rules.

Of course, little of that was original with him; Hillel said most of it first.

 

[Hard_Rom]

If they do, still hearsay.

No. She was present at his resurrection. It would be a first hand account of witnessing both his death and his resurrected form. It would not be hearsay. Might not be true but not hearsay but that would be another issue. None of his male disciples were present at he crucifixion.

 

[ishtat]

An itinerant wandering preacher ex-carpenter.

In the original Greek Gospels Yeshua ben Joseph was a 'tekton' - a builders labourer or jobbing builder. Then he started passing himself off as a skilled tradesman - a carpenter. How can you believe anything else from the guy!

 

[Hard_Rom]

In the original Greek Gospels Yeshua ben Joseph was a 'tekton' - a builders labourer or jobbing builder. Then he started passing himself off as a skilled tradesman - a carpenter. How can you believe anything else from the guy!

Tekton is ancient Greek for artisan/craftsman in wood. Also builder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tektōn

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

God is a sexist? Say it isn't so.

God made males and females differently than each other, with different roles. If you look at Jesus Christ's example, He had the utmost respect for women.

 

[KingOrfeo]

No. She was present at his resurrection. It would be a first hand account of witnessing both his death and his resurrected form. It would not be hearsay. Might not be true but not hearsay but that would be another issue. None of his male disciples were present at he crucifixion.

But, we would have no way of knowing whether Mary actually wrote it.

 

[Hard_Rom]

But, we would have no way of knowing whether Mary actually wrote it.

We have no way of knowing if Shakespeare wrote his plays. Or Aristotle and Plato wrote their works. Cicero could be forgeries. At least it would be something. A possible first hand account of the death and resurrection. As good as most historical records get.

 

[phrodeau]

God made males and females differently than each other, with different roles. If you look at Jesus Christ's example, He had the utmost respect for women.

John 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.

John 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee?

 

[KingOrfeo]

The mob was about to stone the adulteress, when Jesus said, "Stop! Let who is without sin cast the first stone!" Everybody looked shamefaced and started to shuffle away, except for one old woman who picked up a rock and zapped the adulteress right between the eyes.

Jesus said, "Mom, I really hate it when you show off."

 

[Tryharder62]

John 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.

John 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee?

I hope you know I was joking earlier about this. I have to explain I am joking enough to know I am not really funny.

I don't think Jesus was sexist. If you don't take it out of context it goes on to say that "my hour has not come yet". He has to be kind but emphasize that he is not merely her son. He has to accomplish what his father has sent him to accomplish. His season for public ministry hadn't come yet. He loves her though and this miracle becomes his first.

He also calls her woman in John 19:26 when he is making known who should take care of her after his death. He wanted to make sure she was taken care of.

 

[EternalFantasy]

I hope you know I was joking earlier about this. I have to explain I am joking enough to know I am not really funny.

I don't think Jesus was sexist. If you don't take it out of context it goes on to say that "my hour has not come yet". He has to be kind but emphasize that he is not merely her son. He has to accomplish what his father has sent him to accomplish. His season for public ministry hadn't come yet. He loves her though and this miracle becomes his first.

He also calls her woman in John 19:26 when he is making known who should take care of her after his death. He wanted to make sure she was taken care of.

Now that is brilliantly written.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

But, we would have no way of knowing whether Mary actually wrote it.

Mary didn't write it. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote the gospels.

 

[Hard_Rom]

Mary didn't write it. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote the gospels.

Which makes the story of Jesus resurrection complete hearsay. Only Mary can supply a first hand account. And if she did write a gospel it was suppressed by the male disciples. And very effectively probably seeing as fragments of the Gospel according to Judas have been found but none from Mary.

 

[KingOrfeo]

I don't think Jesus was sexist.

Certainly he was no more sexist than anyone of his time and place.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Mary didn't write it. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote the gospels.

We have no way of knowing that, either. That is, we have no way of knowing whether the Gospels were written by the disciples whose names they bear. (Certainly they are not written in the first person -- but, then, most of the Bible isn't.) Most scholars don't believe they were set down in writing until decades after Jesus' death.

 

[Hard_Rom]

I would think decidedly less sexist than others of his time.

 

[KingOrfeo]

We have no way of knowing if Shakespeare wrote his plays. Or Aristotle and Plato wrote their works. Cicero could be forgeries. At least it would be something. A possible first hand account of the death and resurrection. As good as most historical records get.

Well, the difference is that Shakespeare and Plato have value for their content, not because their supposed authorship lends them authority as to historical facts.

 

[KingOrfeo]

I would think decidedly less sexist than others of his time.

Indeed. He opposed divorce because it was cruel to women. In Rome a divorced woman could get on with her life, but in Judea she would have to become a prostitute if her family would not take her back. And Jewish law allowed a man to divorce his wife on grounds ranging from adultery to bad cooking.

 

[Hard_Rom]

Well, the difference is that Shakespeare and Plato have value for their content, not because their supposed authorship lends them authority as to historical facts.

The actual teaching of Jesus have value. The commentaries and extrapolations on his words from his male disciples are questionable. That is the problem with their words being hearsay. About as reliable as a blogger of today.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Which makes the story of Jesus resurrection complete hearsay. Only Mary can supply a first hand account. And if she did write a gospel it was suppressed by the male disciples. And very effectively probably seeing as fragments of the Gospel according to Judas have been found but none from Mary.

Not heresy. The disciples saw Jesus Christ with their own eyes after He resurrected. They talked with Him, ate with Him and touched Him. They also talked directly with Mary, who likely told them what happened, so the really were eyewitnesses accounts, but that doesn't mean that they are the one to experience everything they wrote. All four gospels agree on what happened.

 

[Hard_Rom]

Not heresy. The disciples saw Jesus Christ with their own eyes after He resurrected. They talked with Him, ate with Him and touched Him. They also talked directly with Mary, who likely told them what happened, so the really were eyewitnesses accounts, but that doesn't mean that they are the one to experience everything they wrote. All four gospels agree on what happened.

They are not first hand accounts. They did not see him die on the cross. They were all in hiding. In any court of law there words are hearsay. Only the testimony of Mary would stand up in a court of law. She saw the spear enter his chest and saw him risen from the dead. For all the disciple know he survived the spear thrust. Hearsay in any court except the court of public opinion.

They did not witness the resurrection. Plain and simple.