Period dialogue question - Late Victorian (1890s)

[CyranoJ]

This is a question for any of you who might have experience writing (and reading) in the late Victorian era. I'm working on something set in this period right now, sort of, and I'm feeling mostly comfortable with a sense of the period except there are a couple of niggling questions of personal address that I'm not sure about, and am having trouble turning up answers for.

One of them is: how you address extended family members. Generally speaking I know the period was pretty buttoned-down about personal address (at least in writing, I'm assuming a bit of relaxation in everyday speech), and I have the impression that on most occasions you'd address people by their Christian name only if they were immediate family members. So, say you're a woman meeting a cousin she's been corresponding with. Assuming friendly-to-enthusiastic relations, is it safe to assume you can use each other's Christian names and/or pet forms thereof?

The other: how you address widows. As far as I know, "Ms." will not be in use for some time yet. Does a widow become a "Miss" again or is she "Mrs. Thomas Greeley" unto death or at least unto remarriage, whether or not Thomas himself is still with us on this mortal coil? I'm suspecting the latter?

 

[LadyVer]

Google it, Cyrano. One of my favorite reading eras.

 

[CyranoJ]

Oh, I have Googled mightily and shall again, trust me. This seems to be a bit obscure though, thus far.

 

[LadyVer]

Oh, I have Googled mightily and shall again, trust me. This seems to be a bit obscure though, thus far.

I'm on my laptop now. I think I have a bookmark. Will look and get back with you.

 

[OliviaM]

I'm curious about the answer to this. There must be at least one Victorian novel with examples.

 

[Friendlymann]

Delve into some Dickens (no, not a euphemism) you'll find all the Victoria dialogue you can handle.
Women, as far as I've ever read, kept Mrs, and didn't revert to Miss, which in mature ladies was very much a label for spinsters at the time. Ms is more modern.

 

[LadyVer]

http://www.victorianweb.org/misc/vwintro.html

A start?

 

[ColetteJulie]

Buttoned up not down, the Victorians were prudish and proper. You can also see Jane Austen, Charlotte Bronte, Emily Bronte and I must mention Thomas Hardy. Cordial cousins would call each other Cousin William (example) in public and when speaking of the family member to non family members. Parents would be referred to as Mr. or Mrs. So-and-so in public and to non family members and mother or father when speaking to them directly. If you were speaking to Cousin William about your father, his Uncle you would say my father or your Uncle Tom (example). A widow would stay Mrs. Smith until she remarried. Status was important, if Mrs. Smith was rich she would be elevated to the Widow Smith or the widow Mrs. Smith. It all really depends on the status of the person as to how they would be referred to.

First names would be used by parents to children and amongst siblings and the family was gathering after the initial hello's hello Cousin William, you'd drop the cousin and continue with William.

Again status determined a pet name, if there were 10 Elizabeths in a family, they would have pet names like Betsy or Lilabet, only one Elizabeth would normally end up not having a pet name. Wealthy families and titled families were big on family names (still are), a tradition that has been carried down to the middle class of today, even the poor.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

I study 19th Century history as a pastime. I just bought a 900 page diary from 1890.

The period 1875-1900 is full of diaries, memoirs, novels, and newspaper/magazine periodicals. People then were more literate than today. They also had their own popular vernacular, as every era has its own brand, so to speak. But the vernacular isn't in the literature. Not a word in Mark Twain who wrote piles of books around then. No generation includes vernacular in its literature.

The other thing is, folks back then were plenty more sexually liberated than we are. Brothels are featured in the US Census Returns in the late 1900s. And brothels are commonly mentioned in the periodicals. It was legal to marry children back then, our current practices started in 1926. Child sexual abuse didn't exist. And orphans were often married off or placed at brothels. IN my ancestors memoirs she wrote of how she thought her future husband was a queer rooster because he refused to have sex with her when she was 16. He was 10 years older than she was. QUEER ROOSTER was what she called him in her book, and they had 11 kids. He said he thought it was rude to seduce a kid. Their son (my ancestor) married a 15 year old orphan.

Twains non-fiction is a good source to read.

25 years ago I researched trivia for history authors. They love colorful quotes and obscure facts. Like where did newly weds go when they lived on the frontier. Barns. Mom and Pop used the same place with a cabin fulla kids.

 

[oggbashan]

It depends on the country and the perceived social status of the people. 19th Century books on etiquette would be a good source.

I had two great aunts who were adults in the 1890s and my oldest aunt was born in the 1890s. From talking to them I would suggest several things:

1. Upper Class and real nobility were above such things except on formal occasions such at Court which was very rigidly controlled. A Victorian book on etiquette had rules on how to be introduced to an Earl, a Count, a Bishop, a Mayor etc, and how to respond. For example you would first address a Lord as "Lord Whatever" and then later in the conversation as " Milord" or "Sir". But among themselves they could be very informal indeed addressing each other by a nickname or pet name. It was an indication of status. If you could call The Earl of Whatever "Bunny" then your rank in society was similar to his.

2. The Middle or Professional Classes were the worst for rules on how to address each other. A Surgeon was a "Mr" not a "Doctor". An alderman "Alderman Smith" would be annoyed if addressed as "Councillor Smith". He was a councillor but a councillor of long standing. Alderman was a sign of status.

All married women whether wives, widows or (almost impossibly) divorced were Mrs. All female servants of adult (over 21) age were 'Mrs' by convention even if they weren't married. Their mistress/employer would be 'Madam' usually shortened to 'Ma'am' and said as 'Marm'.

In social situations a husband might refer to his wife as 'Mrs'. "Mrs Smith? Did you like the turbot?" "I'm not sure, Mr Smith. It is the first time I have tried it presented like that."

It would have to be an informal situation among close friends for first names to be used.

Schoolboys referred to each other, and were addressed by their teachers by surname only, with suitable modifiers if there were several of that surname at the school - "Wilkins! Pay attention." "Smith Minor? What is the answer to the question on the blackboard?"

3. Working/labouring classes were seen as being impossibly rude to each other (by middle class standards).

"Ethel? What's your Bert doing now?"

"Bert? He's delivering coal. It's a steady job and brings in the pennies but he ain't 'alf dirty when 'e comes 'ome. 'E has to get the tin bath out every night. I don't know where to put meself as 'e turns from black ter pink."

 

[Handley_Page]

Parent would be addressed by their children as "Papa" or Mama" (or maybe french "Maman")
One man would address another (equal) by the surname.
A married woman is addressed by her married name; "Mrs Smith" or even "Madam" (depending upon relative rank).
A married woman would address her spouse by his Christian name (although not often in public).

Cousins and other family members may not be quite so simple; it depends upon how "together" they are as a family. Frequent interaction between members may lead to 'intimate' names being used. Cousins from Yorkshire intermittently visiting family in Gloucestershire might have something of a problem. "Cousin" has been used.

 

[oggbashan]

There are some 19th books of etiquette available for free download at Project Gutenberg:

https://www.gutenberg.org/

 

[CyranoJ]

Excellent, just what I was looking for. Thanks oggbashan and ColetteJulie. And thanks LadyVer, I had not run across VictorianWeb in my travels, it looks useful.

 

[Hypoxia]

As mentioned, forms of address are a product of time, place, and social status. For late Victorian English norms, see Conan Doyle -- note how the Sherlockian populace spoke.

 

[CyranoJ]

Yeah, the generalities of it I've mostly got the hang of, I think. It's just those little specifics.

 

[jehoram]

See? And I thought this thread about period dialogue would by like "Dearest mother, do you have any sanitary napkins? I seem to have run out..."

 

[oggbashan]

See? And I thought this thread about period dialogue would by like "Dearest mother, do you have any sanitary napkins? I seem to have run out..."

My youngest granddaughter (aged 5 and just about to start school) is visiting. She went upstairs for a nap after the journey.

She didn't sleep. She found a book left behind by her older cousin - about puberty - and proudly announced she had read the first ten pages.

We're expecting awkward questions shortly.

 

[CyranoJ]

See? And I thought this thread about period dialogue would by like "Dearest mother, do you have any sanitary napkins? I seem to have run out..."

I see what you did there.

 

[Hypoxia]

We're expecting awkward questions shortly.

From the front of A Taste of Spirits (I forget where I stole it): My daughter has reached that age where she's asking embarrassing questions about sex. Just this morning she asked, 'Is that the best you can do?'" I admit to some surprise hearing my then-5-year-old granddaughter talking to her mother about boobs.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Buttoned up not down, the Victorians were prudish and proper. You can also see Jane Austen, Charlotte Bronte, Emily Bronte and I must mention Thomas Hardy.

Jane Austen died in 1817, which is a bit early to be a reliable guide to Victorian England, especially late Victorian. (Victoria reigned 1837-1901.)

The modern perception of Victorians as prudes is somewhat overstated. This was an era where Sherlock Holmes could shoot up with cocaine and morphine with nothing more than an occasional tut-tut from his sidekick, and Charles Dickens could abandon his wife for a young actress without censure. Queen Victoria [url="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/art/art-news/7228202/Queen-Victorias-passion-for-nudity-goes-on-display-in-new-art-exhibition.html]"was fond of nudes and gave her husband several as presents[/url]. Prostitution seems to have been pretty common, although numbers vary wildly depending on what source you read.

 

[CyranoJ]

Oh, the Victorians were plenty freaky. Much Victorian erotica would be unpublishable on Literotica.

Buttoned up not down . . .

By the way -- and I'm so sorry, my inner grammar Nazi can't resist -- the usage to mean "conservative" or "prudish" actually is "buttoned-down." Think of it in the same sense as securing something, or "battening down the hatches."

 

[OliviaM]

My youngest granddaughter (aged 5 and just about to start school) is visiting. She went upstairs for a nap after the journey.

She didn't sleep. She found a book left behind by her older cousin - about puberty - and proudly announced she had read the first ten pages.

We're expecting awkward questions shortly.

Hey, leaving books out is a tried and true method of getting the conversation started. At that age, I think I had a book written for kids about the human body. It helped me not be so embarrassed to ask questions.

Jane Austen died in 1817, which is a bit early to be a reliable guide to Victorian England, especially late Victorian. (Victoria reigned 1837-1901.)

The modern perception of Victorians as prudes is somewhat overstated. This was an era where Sherlock Holmes could shoot up with cocaine and morphine with nothing more than an occasional tut-tut from his sidekick, and Charles Dickens could abandon his wife for a young actress without censure. Queen Victoria [url="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/art/art-news/7228202/Queen-Victorias-passion-for-nudity-goes-on-display-in-new-art-exhibition.html]"was fond of nudes and gave her husband several as presents[/url]. Prostitution seems to have been pretty common, although numbers vary wildly depending on what source you read.

Geez, yes. There's lots of stuff written about Victorian sex myths. They wrote SO MUCH PORN and took the first nude pics and all kinds of stuff. Not to mention the whole "You clearly have a condition called hysteria! Please, permit me to relieve you of it lest you go insane." And then Victorian doctors got tired of rubbing ladies' clits all day long so they invented the first vibrators.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

They wrote SO MUCH PORN and took the first nude pics and all kinds of stuff. Not to mention the whole "You clearly have a condition called hysteria! Please, permit me to relieve you of it lest you go insane." And then Victorian doctors got tired of rubbing ladies' clits all day long so they invented the first vibrators.

This. They weren't prudes. There were things they didn't talk about, but that doesn't mean quite a lot wasn't going on, being written about, etc. A lot of it would raise eyebrows today.

 

[ElectricBlue]

By the way -- and I'm so sorry, my inner grammar Nazi can't resist -- the usage to mean "conservative" or "prudish" actually is "buttoned-down." Think of it in the same sense as securing something, or "battening down the hatches."

All of the online dictionaries that I just checked define "reserved" or "conservative" used in this context as "buttoned up" - most likely it does come from the notion of all the buttons being done tightly up.

 

[oggbashan]

Buttoned up and buttoned down is one of those expressions that differ between US and other versions of English.

Conservative and Liberal are two other words that have wildly different connotations in US and British English.

A US Republican administration couldn't say what the current UK Conservative government said in the Queen's Speech that they would be 'progressive'.