Romance category

[sr71plt]

This is your post that started our conversation. As a GM category writer, you include gay males in your stories. If a writer writes a story and puts it into GM and the story doesn't have any gay males in it, wouldn't you question why the author put the story in GM???

So, logically, as a romance reader, when I read a story in the Romance category and the story has zero romance, my initial reaction is not to commend the writer. My initial reaction is feeling the author has jerked me around by pulling a bait and switch, as well as wasting my time.

Well, OK, but it's a lot easier to discern whether there is gay content than Romance content. Romance content is subjective. Gay is not. So I don't see the analogy.

I go back to there only being so many categories here and an author has to find the closest fit they can. The closest fit in the author's eyes as Romance may not meet your limited definition of Romance. Same thing over at the BDSM discussion (where we now know that TxRad, not me, insisted on having the last word--since he brought up that tired old "shut up" technique. )

 

[lovecraft68]

Same thing over at the BDSM discussion (where we now know that TxRad, not me, insisted on having the last word--since he brought up that tired old "shut up" technique. )

No, you just played the last word game here, in another thread where he can't see it.

Displaying your usual back bone I see.

 

[lovecraft68]

For the most part HEA does drive Romance. If you give them unhappy they will be unhappy because many feel romance = happy ending. It makes them smile and keep them comfortable.

But you don't have to be locked into it and if you write a good enough story a non HEA will not necessarily tank. You just have to be compelling and keep them interested.

I only have one entry in Romance which was totally out of the box for the category. Sits at a 4.87 with a blue W next to it.

Write how you want to write, that's more important than a formula, unless of course numbers are all you're looking for, then follow the masses.

 

[oggbashan]

I have just looked through my list of stories.

Some I put in Romance should be in another category.

Some I put in other categories should be in Romance.

So I'm not a good person to give advice on the use of the Romance category.

 

[sr71plt]

No, you just played the last word game here, in another thread where he can't see it.

Displaying your usual back bone I see.

And now you're claiming the last word. Isn't this Internet game fun?

 

[EverLux]

This is why I don't put much stock into what the RWA says about the genre. Romance now includes erotica and porn, and RWA promotes it all as Romance. I'm assuming it's easier to make more money marketing a story under Romance than Erotica

Outside of Lit, I read Romance that includes varied sub-genres. Urban Fantasy, Steam Punk, Suspense, Paranormal, Victorian, HF. The problem with the Romance category is that readers think they're buying Romance, when in fact it is erotica or porn. In reality, Romance has many sub-genres, but the sex isn't, or shouldn't be, broad enough to include what many readers consider porn.

I recently stopped reading what was supposed to be Romance when the male character told the female character that she was his new fucking project. And she quietly accepted his decision. I suspect the writer is male and uses a female pen name.

Just because a story contains a hot, descriptive sex scene doesn't make it porn. In porn, the whole point is sex. The plot is thrown in only to lead the characters from one sex act to the next.

For something to be considered erotic romance (emphasis on romance), the story must be the star. But the sex plays as big a role as, say, an integral piece of a character's past. It's there either to provide the reader with more insight into the character or to further his/her growth. If the sex scene is just there to be there, then we can go ahead and question the author's intent.

I haven't read many (or maybe any) romance novels written prior to 2000, so I don't know what the genre included and didn't include before then. But could it be possible that it's changed a little over time, like most everything else?

Am I saying that there isn't smut masquerading as romance? Absolutely not. Like you, I've purchased what I thought were romance books that included very little romance at all. Nothing like the one you mentioned, though. "His new fucking project"? Very romantic...

 

[GoldenCojones]

Just because a story contains a hot, descriptive sex scene doesn't make it porn. In porn, the whole point is sex. The plot is thrown in only to lead the characters from one sex act to the next.

Well you and I have different definitions for porn. I write porn and I'm proud to say I believe I write pretty good porn. But plot is NOT an afterthought for me. My stories are porn because I choose to use sexually explicit language and I graphically describe the sexual acts. To me plot or lack thereof have absolutely nothing to do with a story or film being porn. Hell look at any Woody Allen film. There isn't a single shred of plot or story in any of them. They are just a mix of bad actors doing stupid bad things that don't make any sense, but they are not considered porn.

Maybe my definition is outdated. Many on this site seem to think so. But they also show an outdated disrespect for porn. Since the time Penthouse did the movie "Caligula" porn has become more and more mainstream. No you won't see it on broadcast television yet, but they are getting closer and closer all the time. I'm not ashamed to say I write porn. People should not be ashamed or shamed or bullied because they read porn.

As far as porn and romance, I don't see the two being mutually exclusive.

 

[EverLux]

Well you and I have different definitions for porn. I write porn and I'm proud to say I believe I write pretty good porn. But plot is NOT an afterthought for me. My stories are porn because I choose to use sexually explicit language and I graphically describe the sexual acts. To me plot or lack thereof have absolutely nothing to do with a story or film being porn. Hell look at any Woody Allen film. There isn't a single shred of plot or story in any of them. They are just a mix of bad actors doing stupid bad things that don't make any sense, but they are not considered porn.

Maybe my definition is outdated. Many on this site seem to think so. But they also show an outdated disrespect for porn. Since the time Penthouse did the movie "Caligula" porn has become more and more mainstream. No you won't see it on broadcast television yet, but they are getting closer and closer all the time. I'm not ashamed to say I write porn. People should not be ashamed or shamed or bullied because they read porn.

As far as porn and romance, I don't see the two being mutually exclusive.

It's possible that I'm getting too technical, but based on your description of what you write, I'd call that erotic fiction. And if the fiction fits the romance mold, erotic romance.

Porn exists simply to arouse someone sexually. If that's all you were after, you wouldn't bother putting much effort into plot or character development. I'm assuming you do it because you want the reader to get more out of your stories than just an orgasm.

Now, I'm 100% not saying that writing only for orgasms is a bad thing or makes you a lesser writer. My first Lit story (on the alt account) has zero plot until you get to part 2, and I wouldn't change it for anything. I'm just saying that there are different levels of smut. And the point of my response to LadyVer was simply that explicit sex scenes don't automatically make a story porn.

Again, I may be getting too technical

 

[lovecraft68]

It's possible that I'm getting too technical, but based on your description of what you write, I'd call that erotic fiction. And if the fiction fits the romance mold, erotic romance.

Porn exists simply to arouse someone sexually. If that's all you were after, you wouldn't bother putting much effort into plot or character development. I'm assuming you do it because you want the reader to get more out of your stories than just an orgasm.

Now, I'm 100% not saying that writing only for orgasms is a bad thing or makes you a lesser writer. My first Lit story (on the alt account) has zero plot until you get to part 2, and I wouldn't change it for anything. I'm just saying that there are different levels of smut. And the point of my response to LadyVer was simply that explicit sex scenes don't automatically make a story porn.

Again, I may be getting too technical

I've written three stories I consider to be romances, two in mature one in first time. In all three I had long build ups that fit the romance mold. But when I got down to it the sex was pretty explicit and 'porny' and people loved it. It was giving them the best of both worlds.

Hot sex between people who care about each other, imagine that?

 

[EverLux]

I've written three stories I consider to be romances, two in mature one in first time. In all three I had long build ups that fit the romance mold. But when I got down to it the sex was pretty explicit and 'porny' and people loved it. It was giving them the best of both worlds.

Hot sex between people who care about each other, imagine that?

I read one of those Mature stories, right? Even the explicit sex was romantic

 

[lovecraft68]

I read one of those Mature stories, right? Even the explicit sex was romantic

What can I say? I'm a softy.

 

[Carnal_Flower]

One could say that Romance "only exists" just to give someone a warm, fuzzy feeling of a "happily ever after," and that that's its own kind of substitute orgasm. Then what you have is "Romance Porn."

I personally think in porn both the feelings and the females are fake, acted, not to mention the female orgasm. In erotica, the feelings are not fake (or shouldn't be) and (in my personal stance) neither are the girls.

I see porn, porny girls, and porny fakeness all across every genre, in novels and strokers, even Romance.

Meanwhile, a short, hot genuine stroker whose "only point is to give you an orgasm" can be WAY more authentic and WAY more erotic than so-called "erotic fiction."

The "meaningless stroker" is just a myth people use to elevate their concept of their own writing, imo. It doesn't exist.

It's possible that I'm getting too technical, but based on your description of what you write, I'd call that erotic fiction. And if the fiction fits the romance mold, erotic romance.

Porn exists simply to arouse someone sexually. If that's all you were after, you wouldn't bother putting much effort into plot or character development. I'm assuming you do it because you want the reader to get more out of your stories than just an orgasm.

Now, I'm 100% not saying that writing only for orgasms is a bad thing or makes you a lesser writer. My first Lit story (on the alt account) has zero plot until you get to part 2, and I wouldn't change it for anything. I'm just saying that there are different levels of smut. And the point of my response to LadyVer was simply that explicit sex scenes don't automatically make a story porn.

Again, I may be getting too technical

 

[EverLux]

I wish people would stop putting words in my mouth. I never said that porn can't be erotic--that's its whole point. I also never claimed that it's a lower form of writing, or requires less skill and talent, than erotic fiction.

What I am saying is that we can't ascribe qualities to porn that, by definition, don't exist. Porn's sole purpose is sexual arousal. If an author includes aspects that appeal to our other senses, a story can no longer be considered porn. At that point, it's erotica.

That is the only point I was trying to make when responding to LadyVer.

 

[sr71plt]

I don't shy away from writing what I consider to be porn when I'm in the mood, but where I separate erotica from porn in my mind is where the stress is--when I'm writing what I consider erotica, the stress is on the arousal; when I'm writing porn, the stress is on the release. I don't intentionally write one and not the other with literary quality in mind. I also don't intentionally give one a plot and not the other. Not stressing (not even not giving) a plot is a legitimate short story form. Fiction is a marvelously broad and open art form.

 

[GoldenCojones]

I wish people would stop putting words in my mouth. I never said that porn can't be erotic--that's its whole point. I also never claimed that it's a lower form of writing, or requires less skill and talent, than erotic fiction.

What I am saying is that we can't ascribe qualities to porn that, by definition, don't exist. Porn's sole purpose is sexual arousal. If an author includes aspects that appeal to our other senses, a story can no longer be considered porn. At that point, it's erotica.

That is the only point I was trying to make when responding to LadyVer.

I hope I wasn't putting words in your mouth. As I said, you and I have different definitions of porn. I believed that what separated Erotica from Porn is the use of graphic language and graphic descriptions. After reading your description I decided to actually look up what some established authorities say about it. So I went to Dictionary.com and looked up Pornography. This is what it says:

noun
1.
sexually explicit videos, photographs, writings, or the like, whose purpose is to elicit sexual arousal.

and I thought, "Ah Ha, See I was right. 'Sexually Explicit' is the first words in the definition.

Then I went to the same source and looked up Erotica. It says:

noun, ( used with a singular or plural verb)
1.
written works, usually fiction, dealing with sexual love.
2.
sexually explicit art, photographs, sculptures, or the like, depicting human sexuality.

So damn it all to hell. The only real difference between the two is Pornography's purpose is to elicit sexual arousal and Erotica deals with sexual love or depicts human sexuality.

Interesting. The good news is there is nothing about plot or quality in the definition. That is a little redemption for me. But both can be explicit. So, if I write sexually explicit stories to arouse, I'm writing porn.

If I'm writing sexually explicit stories to say something about human sexuality I'm writing Erotica.

Damn it! I write both and usually in the same story. I write to elicit sexual arousal. It's what I want to do. But I also write to say something about human sexuality. It's what I need to do. I do both. So I guess from now on I have to say I write pornographic erotica. Hmm, that ain't too bad I guess.

 

[sr71plt]

So damn it all to hell. The only real difference between the two is Pornography's purpose is to elicit sexual arousal and Erotica deals with sexual love or depicts human sexuality.

I can't buy that definition of Pornography. I've encountered none that didn't require sexual release--not just arousal.

(But I can live with lack of agreement.)

 

[EverLux]

First off, this is fantastic

I hope I wasn't putting words in your mouth. As I said, you and I have different definitions of porn. I believed that what separated Erotica from Porn is the use of graphic language and graphic descriptions. After reading your description I decided to actually look up what some established authorities say about it. So I went to Dictionary.com and looked up Pornography. This is what it says:

[definition that didn't make it into the quote]

and I thought, "Ah Ha, See I was right. 'Sexually Explicit' is the first words in the definition.

Then I went to the same source and looked up Erotica. It says:

[see above]

So damn it all to hell. The only real difference between the two is Pornography's purpose is to elicit sexual arousal and Erotica deals with sexual love or depicts human sexuality.

Also, porn can be in video form, but erotica can't. And erotica has sculptures. It's an important distinction that really should not go unmentioned.

Interesting. The good news is there is nothing about plot or quality in the definition. That is a little redemption for me. But both can be explicit. So, if I write sexually explicit stories to arouse, I'm writing porn.

If I'm writing sexually explicit stories to say something about human sexuality I'm writing Erotica.

Damn it! I write both and usually in the same story. I write to elicit sexual arousal. It's what I want to do. But I also write to say something about human sexuality. It's what I need to do. I do both. So I guess from now on I have to say I write pornographic erotica. Hmm, that ain't too bad I guess.

It has a very sexy ring to it, actually. I'd say go copyright that shit, but it appears that it's already a thing people say. I especially like this Google search result:
Figures pornographic erotica gay cumshot porn geographical domestic

If you click on the link, you'll be treated to a very entertaining "article" about... I have no idea what. Here's an excerpt:
Men are, pornography allure by animals: typically… Pornography of seeping fetishism receptive his vagina possible childbirth is where? Or film that is.
This is either written by someone whose first (or fifth) language is not English, or it's an attempt to put every sex word imaginable onto one page.

Annnnd I've veered way off topic. Whoops!

 

[NotWise]

I've always looked at the difference as being that erotica has an artistic quality, and porn does not.

Now define "artistic" and you can resolve the difference.

 

[EverLux]

I've always looked at the difference as being that erotica has an artistic quality, and porn does not.

Now define "artistic" and you can resolve the difference.

Sculpture, apparently.

 

[sr71plt]

I don't see why a video can't be erotic.

 

[EverLux]

I don't see why a video can't be erotic.

Ask Dictionary.com. Then again, video could be included in "or the like."

 

[Hypoxia]

Sorry I got here late and didn't absorb all arguments TL/DR but that won't stop me. I see a Romance story as covering the growth and deepening of relationships. It might contain full-on pr0n -- I call The Book of Ruth series a "romantic memoir" and it's loaded with incest and cheating. I call The Botanists a "historical romance"; it has virtually no explicit sex. In both, I try to show relationships' evolution. A romantic tragedy might tell of the rise and fall of love; it won't be all warm and fuzzy. Ruth is like that. But I still consider it a Romance.

 

[NotWise]

Sculpture, apparently.

Or pottery, or paintings, or drawings, or good photography or very well-done videos or... I've seen a lot of explicit works in all of those fields that are so well-done that *I* have to think of them as artistic. Someone who is offended by them won't find them artistic. The difference is subjective. As I recall that is largely why the US Supreme Court declined to define pornography. The demarcation is up to you.

 

[CoffeeWithMonkeys]

You know I nearly posted my newest story in the Romance category because I think it's sweet and romantic, but maybe it's a good thing I didn't because they probably would have hated the ending!

Can there not be romance if they don't end up together?

 

[EverLux]

You know I nearly posted my newest story in the Romance category because I think it's sweet and romantic, but maybe it's a good thing I didn't because they probably would have hated the ending!

Can there not be romance if they don't end up together?

Oh, there can be romance, but it's not Romance (if you ask the majority of readers in that category )