Third-person objective

[Serafina1210]

I've been experimenting with third-person objective narration--that is, the narrator doesn't report the thoughts or feelings of any of the characters. Well known examples of this kind of narration are Dashiell Hammett's The Maltese Falcon and Ernest Hemingway's "Hills Like White Elephants."

My assumption has been that you can't write a decent erotic story in third-person objective because erotica depends so much on getting the reader into the characters' feelings. But getting characters' feelings across through their words, facial expressions, and body language is a thing we all do--and filmmakers pretty much have to do it that way, unless they resort to a whole lot of voice-over narration. So why not?

I found myself doing a sort of borderline cheating as I went on, for example using a word like "cautiously" that could describe either a manner or a mental state, or having the narrator drop a fact that could but doesn't have to be from the character's head. A little example, and then with any luck we can have some conversation about craft (my favorite conversations here):

The man on the phone said, “Just call me George. A friend of yours gave me your number.”

“What friend?” she asked cautiously.

He said, “Cécile,” and Dary frowned into the phone. “Me and Cécile ain’t into the same kinda shit,” she said.

He said, “Five hundred dollars.”

Five hundred was ten times more than Dary had ever gotten for a date. “What you want for five hundred?”

“A kind of party game. There’ll be four of us—your teachers. We’ll have a conference about your poor grades, and it’ll get out of hand.”

“I’m too old for that game, and I don’t do gangbangs. You want Cécile—she look like a high school girl.”

“We’ve had Cécile—now we want Darlene for a change. Six hundred.”

“What you want me for? Plenty of girls beside Cécile will do the four of you, or many as you want.”

“We heard you’re the best. They say a man never forgets a night with you.”

“Well, you can forget about a gangbang. If you ever want a date for yourself—”

“Eight hundred. That’s two apiece.”

“I ain’t no Yale graduate, but I can do that much arithmetic, George.”

“Wednesday. Get yourself a nice dress—you know, plaid, for a Catholic school—”

“I’m twenty-five years old and black. I’m gonna look stupid in a school uniform.”

“The Catholic schools are integrated, Darlene. Everybody says you’re beautiful, for a colored girl.”

She paused and took a deep breath. “You can’t tell the difference after dark, George.”

“Knee socks, saddle shoes, a white blouse and school tie—”

She scribbled a list on the back of an envelope.

So have you tried third-person objective narration? Do you have favorite examples of it?

 

[lovecraft68]

I write in third a lot for off lit stuff and anything here I deem 'serious'. In general I think it was fine and you caught the uneducated 'street' in Dary except she would not say arithmetic, she would say math-sorry I nit pick at the weirdest things.

Like.....no one ever forgets a night with her, but $500 is ten times what she's ever gotten? $50 is her previous high? Unless this is many years ago, those numbers are off.

Any Craigs list or back page girl gets $100 half hour $150+ an hour and those are nobodies

One more, her remark about color not mattering after dark. You always have the lights on when messing with a escort,especially seeing they want this specific scenario, and want a girl of a certain ethnicity.

Again, dumb ass details, but since they jumped at me, thought I'd mention it.

 

[Serafina1210]

I write in third a lot for off lit stuff and anything here I deem 'serious'. In general I think it was fine and you caught the uneducated 'street' in Dary except she would not say arithmetic, she would say math-sorry I nit pick at the weirdest things.

Like.....no one ever forgets a night with her, but $500 is ten times what she's ever gotten? $50 is her previous high? Unless this is many years ago, those numbers are off.

Any Craigs list or back page girl gets $100 half hour $150+ an hour and those are nobodies

One more, her remark about color not mattering after dark. You always have the lights on when messing with a escort,especially seeing they want this specific scenario, and want a girl of a certain ethnicity.

Again, dumb ass details, but since they jumped at me, thought I'd mention it.

Ah ha. Thanks for the read, LC.

The year is 1973, so her highest price is $270 in 2016 dollars. I like New Haven in the 1970s as a setting for dark prostitution stories.

She gropes for a politic response to a racist comment and comes up with a snatch of a song lyric:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9qIcBk4pMI[

But everything that goes on in the story happens with the lights on.

Math? I was thinking maybe I should have made it 'rithmetic.

I love African American English and use it a lot.

 

[lovecraft68]

Ah ha. Thanks for the read, LC.

The year is 1973, so her highest price is $270 in 2016 dollars. I like New Haven in the 1970s as a setting for dark prostitution stories.

She gropes for a politic response to a racist comment and comes up with a snatch of a song lyric:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9qIcBk4pMI[

But everything that goes on in the story happens with the lights on.

Math? I was thinking maybe I should have made it 'rithmetic.

I love African American English and use it a lot.

Okay so priced for the times

And yes, 'rithmetic' would work better, sounds a little more sarcastic. The guys fantasy with a black girl was more taboo back then as well, I would think. I'd play that up. Unfortunately because I have no issue portraying realism and showing men as assholes, my version would involve demeaning racial slurs, but not everyone is as harsh as I am. But what your scene invokes in me is four asshole white guys who want to put it to some.....fill in the blank.

What are you looking for examples of? Dialogue mostly or any type of third person narrative?

 

[sr71plt]

Third-person objective is used frequently in mystery writing (thus The Maltese Falcon--Hemingway used it a lot, because he was pretty surface in his plotting; he didn't care that much what his characters thought or whether they had complex motivations. That doesn't mean that his presentation of simple motivations wasn't powerful), where "who done it" and "motivations" have to be withheld until the end or those aspects of the mystery have to be foregone (which they can be in a mystery, but then it becomes a different sort of mystery). It can be hard to write because it can easily become clinical and hold the reader at an arm's length. It's not a great approach for erotica, though, which is best when emotionally charged and dealing in the characters' heads a lot.

 

[Serafina1210]

What are you looking for examples of? Dialogue mostly or any type of third person narrative?

Third-person objective--the narrator has no access to the thoughts or feelings of the characters. You might almost say there is no point of view (though the narrative "camera" may perch on some character's shoulder).

Standard third-person with a point of view might say:

“The Catholic schools are integrated, Darlene. Everybody says you’re beautiful, for a colored girl.”

What an asshole, she thought. “You can’t tell the difference after dark, George.”

or, in free indirect style:

“The Catholic schools are integrated, Darlene. Everybody says you’re beautiful, for a colored girl.”

The man was an asshole. “You can’t tell the difference after dark, George.”

But instead, third-person objective reports only what another person present at the scene could experience with her own senses--mostly what the characters do and say. So:

“The Catholic schools are integrated, Darlene. Everybody says you’re beautiful, for a colored girl.”

She paused and took a deep breath. “You can’t tell the difference after dark, George.”

 

[lovecraft68]

So the third person objective is reactionary, describing words, actions, but with no insight into anything but what's right there in plain sight.

 

[NotWise]

Third-person objective--the narrator has no access to the thoughts or feelings of the characters. You might almost say there is no point of view (though the narrative "camera" may perch on some character's shoulder).

I think I flirt with third person objective without going all the way. I try to get the thoughts and emotions communicated mostly through dialog and the character's actions. "Mostly," not entirely.

 

[Serafina1210]

It's not a great approach for erotica, though, which is best when emotionally charged and dealing in the characters' heads a lot.

This was my assumption too, but I thought it an interesting challenge to try getting into the characters' heads through words, gestures, facial expressions, etc. In my snippet the idea is that you should be able to understand Dary's thought process as she moves from "no way" to "okay," even though it's not given directly.

Things get even tougher when the characters take their clothes off, and I'm not sure I've succeeded, but it seems to me it should be possible to get readers into the characters' heads through careful selection of detail.

 

[Serafina1210]

So the third person objective is reactionary, describing words, actions, but with no insight into anything but what's right there in plain sight.

Pretty much. There are gray areas, of course. I let my narrator have a certain amount of knowledge of the characters' personal histories--we know, for example, what Dary has been getting for a date. And then, say, what does an embrace feel like? Describe the texture of the skin, the heat, the sweat, smells, tastes, but do not report the characters' reactions to those things.

In a way, you're asking your readers to imagine the appropriate sensations and the physical and emotional reactions, experience them vicariously, and project them onto the characters.

 

[Serafina1210]

I think I flirt with third person objective without going all the way. I try to get the thoughts and emotions communicated mostly through dialog and the character's actions. "Mostly," not entirely.

Probably most of us do this. If you just say "She loved the feeling of his skin against hers and got turned on," you're giving your reader nothing to hang onto. Instead, standard third-person narrative gives physical details and the characters' reactions.

The challenge with third-person objective is to avoid describing the reactions but make the physical details evocative enough that readers get the emotional content anyway.

 

[sr71plt]

This was my assumption too, but I thought it an interesting challenge to try getting into the characters' heads through words, gestures, facial expressions, etc. In my snippet the idea is that you should be able to understand Dary's thought process as she moves from "no way" to "okay," even though it's not given directly.

Yes, I agree that that would be a very interesting approach to take--and quite satisfying if you feel you have brought it off. But I've got to be honest with you. It requires readers who will become deeply engaged and put in the effort to read with discernment. I wouldn't do it for Literotica unless you're prepared for the approach not to be "gotten" or "appreciated" by more than a handful of readers--and if you've steeled yourself for lack of understanding/appreciation to be shown by the bulk of the readers here. I still try for that sort of thing but I only place them here if I written them basically for someplace else with more knowledgeable and open-minded readers.

Maybe write it for the marketplace? I see that you've published something "deeper" recently to the marketplace. That caught my attention.

 

[lovecraft68]

Pretty much. There are gray areas, of course. I let my narrator have a certain amount of knowledge of the characters' personal histories--we know, for example, what Dary has been getting for a date. And then, say, what does an embrace feel like? Describe the texture of the skin, the heat, the sweat, smells, tastes, but do not report the characters' reactions to those things.

In a way, you're asking your readers to imagine the appropriate sensations and the physical and emotional reactions, experience them vicariously, and project them onto the characters.

I'm sure I've done this but to recall an exact example and find it would be tough. Writing one at the moment would be too as I'm bouncing back and forth between the boards and working on a story.

If I've done it, it was unintentional as everything I do is. I've learned I'm more instinctual than knowledgeable. I really wasn't sure what third objective was until I read your example and you further explained. I just write what I intend and if it shows a certain style it was again, not intended or subconscious maybe.

That's why some here think I'm a hack or not serious enough. Its not that, its I'd rather learn as I go and by doing rather than spending hours discussing it or reading countless examples of it.

So....I prefer free wheeling t hack, thank you very much.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

I come from those times, and those times weren't like today. Like, black males wouldn't eat pussy for love nor money nor threat of death. Us white boys thought their attitudes were serious LOL but all swore eating pussy was the same as sucking a man. WHY WOULD YOU WANNA PUT YOUR MOUTH WHERE A DICK'S BEEN?

The best depictions of black women of those times are the Harlem Series by Chester Himes. His short stories are excellent, too. He called a spade a spade and laid it out like it was. As a rule, whites got black pussy from servants or they went to bordellos that served white men. White men preferred quadroon and octoroon black women.

Chester Himes is very nonPC with modern blacks, but he didn't lie, and captured the times and all its warts.

 

[sr71plt]

Well, there went that interesting discussion.

 

[Serafina1210]

Yes, I agree that that would be a very interesting approach to take--and quite satisfying if you feel you have brought it off. But I've got to be honest with you. It requires readers who will become deeply engaged and put in the effort to read with discernment. I wouldn't do it for Literotica unless you're prepared for the approach not to be "gotten" or "appreciated" by more than a handful of readers--and if you've steeled yourself for lack of understanding/appreciation to be shown by the bulk of the readers here. I still try for that sort of thing but I only place them here if I written them basically for someplace else with more knowledgeable and open-minded readers.

Maybe write it for the marketplace? I see that you've published something "deeper" recently to the marketplace. That caught my attention.

It's from a piece in my "Polyerotic Reader," done for the marketplace. That's why I couldn't just link to it. I don't think I'd try it at greater length than for a short story, if only because it would be exhausting. As you say, it feels more natural for a detective story.

The mode I currently favor for longer pieces is third-person narrative with free indirect style. But that's a conversation for another thread.

 

[Serafina1210]

I'm sure I've done this but to recall an exact example and find it would be tough. Writing one at the moment would be too as I'm bouncing back and forth between the boards and working on a story.

If I've done it, it was unintentional as everything I do is. I've learned I'm more instinctual than knowledgeable. I really wasn't sure what third objective was until I read your example and you further explained. I just write what I intend and if it shows a certain style it was again, not intended or subconscious maybe.

That's why some here think I'm a hack or not serious enough. Its not that, its I'd rather learn as I go and by doing rather than spending hours discussing it or reading countless examples of it.

So....I prefer free wheeling t hack, thank you very much.

I won't sell free-wheeling short: it's worked very well for you. For some people, storytelling is like grammar, which most people do perfectly well without thinking about it.

I admire that facility, but I don't have it. For me, every fucking detail is a struggle. I like attending craft talks by visiting fiction writers. They get my sluggish brain going and I find myself furiously scribbling notes for whatever I'm working on.

Different strokes and all.

 

[Serafina1210]

I come from those times, and those times weren't like today. Like, black males wouldn't eat pussy for love nor money nor threat of death. Us white boys thought their attitudes were serious LOL but all swore eating pussy was the same as sucking a man. WHY WOULD YOU WANNA PUT YOUR MOUTH WHERE A DICK'S BEEN?

The best depictions of black women of those times are the Harlem Series by Chester Himes. His short stories are excellent, too. He called a spade a spade and laid it out like it was. As a rule, whites got black pussy from servants or they went to bordellos that served white men. White men preferred quadroon and octoroon black women.

Chester Himes is very nonPC with modern blacks, but he didn't lie, and captured the times and all its warts.

You're probably a few years older than me. I wish I had first-hand knowledge of whether black men ate pussy in the 1970s, but alas, I led a pretty sheltered life back then.

I agree about Himes. He was a terrific writer. I should pick up some of his stuff again.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Himes style looks 3rd person objective. If youre not interested go fuck yourself. But it may be what youre after.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

You're probably a few years older than me. I wish I had first-hand knowledge of whether black men ate pussy in the 1970s, but alas, I led a pretty sheltered life back then.

I agree about Himes. He was a terrific writer. I should pick up some of his stuff again.

I was in the military and then lived in a mixed neighborhood in the 70s, no black admitted to oral sex.

 

[someoneyouknow]

Want to thank Searfina1210 for the wonderful example of third person objective. Being the hack writer I am I'm still getting my legs at writing and have been literally hacking apart the conclusion of one of my stories (while trying to write a book ) .

What I've been hacking off have been the internal emotions and thoughts which have left me trying to explain the actions of the characters in a much more blasé manner. Now I know what I've been doing (thus the hack writing).

Thanks again.

Who would have thought one could learn something on Lit?

 

[Serafina1210]

Want to thank Searfina1210 for the wonderful example of third person objective. Being the hack writer I am I'm still getting my legs at writing and have been literally hacking apart the conclusion of one of my stories (while trying to write a book ) .

What I've been hacking off have been the internal emotions and thoughts which have left me trying to explain the actions of the characters in a much more blasé manner. Now I know what I've been doing (thus the hack writing).

Thanks again.

Who would have thought one could learn something on Lit?

Thank you, someoneyouknkow (I wonder if I know you?). The instinct to hack off the simple statements of emotion and sensation (I was so in love! I was so turned on! my orgasm was so huge!) is the right one for many writers. For me, what this thread ended up being about is that old adage, "show don't tell."

"How was that big date last night, dude?"

"It was really amazing, man. That Serafina's so fucking hot, and she totally put out!"

"Sorry, dude, that doesn't tell me anything."

"Well, she's like three hundred pounds and . . ."

Now you're getting somewhere.

 

[NotWise]

What I've been hacking off have been the internal emotions and thoughts which have left me trying to explain the actions of the characters in a much more blasé manner. Now I know what I've been doing (thus the hack writing).

Most of the time I don't want to hear about the characters' internal emotions and thoughts. I want the story to be told cleanly, with the results spelled out through characterization and action.

If the story spends much time at all dwelling on internal conflicts then I'm clicking away.

 

[Kellazdriel]

Third person objective is so much like the impersonal camera of porn I see no reason to use it. The difference between erotica and porn is that deep, emotional, inner transformative dive. When you take away access to a protoganist's head, their journey, what is left? Clinical, physical acts.

Could I write in that voice? Yeah, sure. But why? Why would I do that? Why alienate and anger everyone. It's nutty.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Pay attention to what competent writers and artists do to place the point of view where it oughta be. Navel gazing is not sentry duty or reconnaissance out in Indian Country.