Clichés - ever? never?

[legerdemer]

This thread came out of my having used some clichéd phrases in a recent poem on my thread, hoping to convey the cliché of the situation through the use of worn-out tropes. I got called on the carpet by no fewer than three of you!

And greenmountaineer pointed out that in the past, 1201 had expressed strong opinions that poetry had no place for clichés.

So... what do you think? Have/do you ever use them? Do you hunt them out of your own poems like rats or cockroaches? Do they stick out at you like ten sore thumbs in the poems of others?

Opinions, please...

By the way, gm also pointed me to this - http://www.literarydevices.com/cliche/
- the whole site looks really interesting and full of good stuff, I highly recommend it if you're like me and hadn't run across it before.

 

[Trixareforkids]

I only have a problem with cliches when they're used in a cliche way

Used tongue in cheek or played with in some form or another I think they're not only fine but fun.

I know I have and will use them, as they're good little data packets, 1201 might call that a cheat, and he might even be right , but sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

 

[champagne1982]

We had a discussion on this very thing a while back.

How Original Are You?

 

[legerdemer]

We had a discussion on this very thing a while back.

How Original Are You?

Thanks for digging that out of the corner cobwebs - looks meaty.

 

[legerdemer]

Thanks for digging that out of the corner cobwebs - looks meaty.

Meaty, a little trippy, and with a large pinch of devil's advocate special sauce. Hmmmnmmm good stuff.

(BTW, does anyone know why 1201 disappeared? He was still around in 2014 or so...)

 

[Magnetron]

Meaty, a little trippy, and with a large pinch of devil's advocate special sauce. Hmmmnmmm good stuff.

(BTW, does anyone know why 1201 disappeared? He was still around in 2014 or so...)

He mentioned something about going under the knife for a hand or a wrist surgery.

And has been POOF ever since.

 

[greenmountaineer]

Meaty, a little trippy, and with a large pinch of devil's advocate special sauce. Hmmmnmmm good stuff.

(BTW, does anyone know why 1201 disappeared? He was still around in 2014 or so...)

He mentioned something about going under the knife for a hand or a wrist surgery.

And has been POOF ever since.

I seem to recall 1201 had some eyesight problem, but I could be wrong. He could be acerbic at times but knew how to get me thinking about writing. I hope he can return someday. He was a wonderful part of PF&D.

 

[greenmountaineer]

.....

 

[greenmountaineer]

One of the things I liked about "The Turning" in Mer's challenge is the way the poet turned a cliché upside down and made the reader think. For example,


I spoiled your child
Don't spare me your rod
Ryan, this time make it really burn

 

[todski28]

Ahh to cliche or not to, any way, point being, cliche's are an easy way out I agree, because they encapsulate entire ideas and societal views, watered down into oft repeated concepts, the problem is, over use turns them into platitudes, easy to dismiss because of their unorginality, yet easy to use as a crutch because it says exactly what you want it to, and people have heard it so often then understand exactly what you are saying.

You don't lose the reader up the arse of your pretensions
but they will probably switch off, or dismiss the emotional impact you are trying to impart based on familiarity. The double edge swords of writing, since poetry seems to be based on communicating emotions and concepts hard to express in prose by letting a reader add their own emotional contextuality to the write, we are left with easy outs and easy understanding.

Understanding when and why you are writing what you are writing, to me is the key, if you can subvert, re-invent or cleverly add a cliche to a piece you have all of the emotional impact created by the "cliche" but the originality in the write to impress upon the reader a new spin on an old concept.

Emotions dont change but can you exress it in a way that a lot of people have no choice but to feel your writing.

I think, the key is
Understand what you want to say
and if it is appropriate use the cliche
but be prepared to defend your use of it if it is called under scrutiny.

Or find the clishe you want and subvert, pervert or rewrite it to expand upon your piece.

And Gm has sighted a perfect example

*(dissapears up the arse of his own pretension heading down redundancy street )

 

[Angeline]

I agree with tods and gm (and I think I also said it in the thread Champie bumped): anything can work in the right context. The only problem with a cliche comes if you are unaware you are using it. But that's a problem with *any* word in a poem. Each word is a choice (or should be) and if you don't go back and edit, keeping in mind that each word is a choice, you will end up with cliches and other gobbledegook in your poem.

When you use a cliche ironically or in an otherwise different context, it can work well, like in Mer's poem.

But I think people who write and edit are pretty unlikely to use full cliches in a poem unintentionally. What is more likely to get by you (or me, lol) is the overused word. It's good to be specific, but if you write a poem about love and you use the more common words associated with love, you run the risk of boring your readers (they've heard it all before). You may feel you need to use those words, but try (again, like Mer did in the example shown) to use them in a different way.

Also, sometimes a word may seem off to a reader who just doesn't get the reference or the context in which you've used it. Then you have to decide whether it needs fixing. Years ago I wrote a poem about New Orleans and 1201 insisted I'd have problems with "Congo Square" because of possible negative interpretations of "Congo." "Congo Square" is a place name. It's a historic park in Nola associated with the beginnings of jazz. For someone who isn't obsessed with jazz (i.e., most of you!) the term might sound off in a reading. But to me, changing it wouldn't work so I took the risk that people would either look it up, be offended or (most likely) not care.

 

[Magnetron]

It all depends on the situation.

And you have to keep in mind that non-poet readers are not likely to be as critical as poet readers.

For every one poet that groans, ninety-nine Average Joes may be getting the message that the cliche can effectively deliver.

Sometimes we outsmart ourselves in catering our work to other poets - leaving Harry, Dick and Tom scratching their balls. I meant, heads.

 

[legerdemer]

Good point, which brings up another one: who do you write for? What audience do you have in mind?

My assumption is that the vast majority of readers will pass right by poetry, but you are right - there are readers who enjoy poetry who don't actually write it.

 

[Trixareforkids]

Good point, which brings up another one: who do you write for? What audience do you have in mind?

My assumption is that the vast majority of readers will pass right by poetry, but you are right - there are readers who enjoy poetry who don't actually write it.

That question has multiple answers, because we all have (or wish to have) multiple audiences. There's the immediate audience, which for most of us right now is other poets, we have family and friends, some of us have blogs which have a mixed audience and then there's the wider poetry reading public.

My ultimate audience for any piece is the last and with that group in mind there are still multiple audiences, well two, contemporary and future readers. Some of what I write has that future audience in mind and those pieces are what I term 100 year pieces, for those pieces I actively edit out pop culture references, tropes and clichés that I don't believe will stand the test of time. However, for a contemporary audience, those reference add a feeling of familiarity, a little piece of their own history to connect with and possibly bring the point/emotion home.

Cliché used well adds to a piece IMO and is a nod to all the writers who have come before to say things in such a way that they became part of our vernacular. I'm short I have no problem standing on the shoulders of giants , the hope is that in doing so I'll see just a little further beyond them.

 

[Magnetron]

Good point, which brings up another one: who do you write for? What audience do you have in mind?

My assumption is that the vast majority of readers will pass right by poetry, but you are right - there are readers who enjoy poetry who don't actually write it.

The vast majority of people ( not just readers ) are under the assumption that poetry won't be enjoyable - that it is meaningless lyrics, lyrics with meaning that is a chore to understand and or lyrics that are just plain emotional venting. All without the musical counterpart.

And when it comes to unskilled poets, those assumptions would be correct.

I write for these people with these obstacles to overcome in mind. You can win them over with something that also appeals to poets.

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

I love using obscure words and often go into the thesaurus to avoid a cliché. As for "who do I write for?" I write for myself, if a poem clicks with a reader all the better. it's the case in most art, unless commissioned, I think.

 

[legerdemer]

I imagine that most if not all of us, while we write for ourselves primarily and secondarily hope others will enjoy what we've written, fall into the category of knowing high quality writing - a personal measure, to be sure, but nonetheless with a significant degree of universality - and strive to make our own writing of that same high quality. I see that attitude in all of you who participate in the challenges here.

 

[butters]

if you use a cliché out of laziness, that's poor writing

if you use it to add a specific flavour/allusion/reference then it's often acceptable

i like it best when i see one that's been taken and turned all twisty

only ever use them if you feel they a) suit the voice of the poem and b) bring further dimension to what's already being created visually/sonically

 

[butters]

(BTW, does anyone know why 1201 disappeared? He was still around in 2014 or so...)

he pm'd me several times during the years stating he was leaving (for various personal reasons), but he always returned. i still hope he may some day. i am concerned, though, as some poster said he was dead - that's not to say he is! this particular poster was a well-known troll, so i'm not taking it at face value.

wherever he is, whatever he's doing, he was one of my absolute favourite people at Lit and i wish him happiness and health.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

A Blitz poem is supposed to be full of cliches and no punctuation .. like this

It's what it is
It's a dog's life
Life goes on
Life is a bitch
Bitch about me
Bitch is me
Me and my shadow
Me and you make two
Two for tea
Two little boys
Boys toys
Boys and girls
Girls rule
Girl's night out
Out and about
Out of luck
Luck of the Irish
Luck is a lady
Lady and the Tramp
Lady in waiting
Waiting about
Waiting? Why are we?
We are the champions
We all need love
Love in a cold climate
Love makes the world go round
Round the houses
Round not square
Square eyes
Square peg in a round hole
Hole in the ground
Hole in one
One, two, three O'Leary
One day at a time
Time in a bottle
Time heals all
All is most of fall
All cannot be pleased
Pleased from thank yous
Pleased to meet you
You are half of me
You are everything
Everything coming up roses
Everything comes to an end
End is new beginnings
End sentences with full stops
Stops running away
Stops then gone
Gone.....
Away.....

 

[Neonurotic]

When I see cliches, I think of Senna Jawa scathing comments circa 2003-2006.

Cliches, I really try to stay away from them, but some might slip in a poem but only because I hadn't realized it was a cliche. Which of course would be my ignorance showing.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

When I see cliches, I think of Senna Jawa scathing comments circa 2003-2006.

Cliches, I really try to stay away from them, but some might slip in a poem but only because I hadn't realized it was a cliche. Which of course would be my ignorance showing.

Senna Jawa scathed about everything possible, he made a vocation out of it.

 

[legerdemer]

The lesson for me seems to be that you should use extreme caution and make sure, if you use any cliches, that you have a good reason for it and make the deliberateness obvious. That is, don't make readers think you were lazy or careless; show that the cliche was intended, pointed, and necessary.