Themed Contest Off-Topic Discussion

[lovecraft68]

Didn't want to add to an already long post, but the chapter issue is a great example. How long have people called out the unfair edge, that they are not technically stories? Years as it as being talked about before I got here.

Yet the annual awards is full of them and some people were pissed and of course its the people's fault who point out what's unfair

It would take nothing to eliminate them, that's not fancy hardware or updates we're talking, that's taking a quick glance through the nominees and booting chapters and going to the next in line.

One candidate for influential author wrote one story all of 2015 a chapter in a series. How does something like that get by? By not paying any attention at all. In fact one story nominated I think was from 2013 and that was there until someone called attention to it.

I know, free site, get what you pay for, we all get a chance to write here and get read here and do some reading ourselves and have fun and make friends and be a part of something cool.

And that's all true and whether people believe it or not, I very much like this site. I talk it up, send people here all the time send story links around, try to bring people here to read and write.

But as a person who owned and ran their own business for a few years and am currently one of three people running the day to day operations of the company I work for, I think 'what do you want for free' is a cop out.

As good as this place is, it could be so much better and less frustrating with not a whole lot of effort and who knows, maybe even become more lucrative. See a problem, address it don't go "shhh" and play favorites and deny everything.

But I guess that is me by nature. I do the best I can to half ass nothing that I'm ever involved in and maybe its my fault I expect the same.

 

[JKendallDane]

Just a little side note. Reynolds Aluminum's stock price is up by more than 40% since last year's Valentine's Day contest. In fact, it seems to consistently spike right about the same time as Lit's contests and the birth of threads like this one.

Purely a coincidence? Maybe yes, maybe no.

http://s-ak.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/web03/2010/12/4/19/enhanced-buzz-23195-1291507489-7.jpg

Pardon the interruption. Please carry on.

.

 

[sr71plt]

Just for fun, I'll note that the Mod birthed this particular thread.

 

[lovecraft68]

Just for fun, I'll note that the Mod birthed this particular thread.

A version of it, as was noted key elements were left out.

But the good thing about splinter threads is more leeway is given to talk about things out in the open.

 

[sr71plt]

A version of it, as was noted key elements were left out.

Imagine all that Scouries and Freddie grief that would have been spared if the Web site was showing that sort of interest in moderating for site users as little as six months ago.

 

[lovecraft68]

Imagine all that Scouries and Freddie grief that would have been spared if the Web site was showing that sort of interest in moderating for site users as little as six months ago.

True, because the mod did a good job with Freddie even though it seemed like it was more in freddie's favor at the start. The mod deleted so many of his BS threads he gave up.

As for scouries a mod wasn't needed, a banning would have fixed that and it was pointless to blow up his Gabby alt when everyone-including the site-knew who he was.

 

[oggbashan]

What concerns me more than possible manipulation of the contest scores is that the discussion of cheating is deterring people from entering Literotica contests.

Although contests get more entries than they used to years ago,and I think that the overall quality of the entries has improved, the entries are a very small proportion of the stories posted on Literotica during the contest period. If many more stories were submitted manipulation would become almost impossible.

OK, many of the stories posted daily are Chapter xx of a series of sex scenes, but there are also many that are not chapters. The contests aren't reaching the majority of Literotica's authors.

We should have hundreds of entries, not tens.

 

[lovecraft68]

Just a little side note. Reynolds Aluminum's stock price is up by more than 40% since last year's Valentine's Day contest. In fact, it seems to consistently spike right about the same time as Lit's contests and the birth of threads like this one.

Purely a coincidence? Maybe yes, maybe no.

http://s-ak.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/web03/2010/12/4/19/enhanced-buzz-23195-1291507489-7.jpg

Pardon the interruption. Please carry on.

.

Right, because every member there 16-20 whatever it is these days(and new members are easily identifiable) didn't run to the yearly awards and back the groups horses.

Which again on a site where hundreds of thousands of people read daily, shouldn't matter at all, but it does and those 15-20 votes are going to make a huge difference considering most categories will barely see 50-60 total votes.

It will make the difference in the two I'm in against your friends, that's for certain.

It will certainly make a difference in the best poet thread as well. There's more of you guys than there are poets here

And of course there is no thread touting "support our friends' in the yearly's is there? Rhetorical, don't bother answering.

 

[lovecraft68]

What concerns me more than possible manipulation of the contest scores is that the discussion of cheating is deterring people from entering Literotica contests.

Although contests get more entries than they used to years ago,and I think that the overall quality of the entries has improved, the entries are a very small proportion of the stories posted on Literotica during the contest period. If many more stories were submitted manipulation would become almost impossible.

OK, many of the stories posted daily are Chapter xx of a series of sex scenes, but there are also many that are not chapters. The contests aren't reaching the majority of Literotica's authors.

We should have hundreds of entries, not tens.

I'm not sure you're right and here's why. The authors in the AH represent a very small fraction of the lit authors here. They don't come to the boards, they don't see references to cheating or anything at all.

I think that is why there are so few entries on a site this vast. If you don't come to the boards how do you know about the contest? I think there is something on the main story list page?

So I think its a case of most don't know. Just my opinion, nothing to really back it.

as for entries to me there are fewer than it seems because of multiple entries. Example this one has 61-which is low, but this contest seems to have taken over for its predecessor as least popular

But in those 61, you have four, Silkstockinglover has five and Heyall has six. so there is less than fifty authors involved.

 

[oggbashan]

...

And of course there is no thread touting "support our friends' in the yearly's is there? Rhetorical, don't bother answering.

Years ago we used to include "support our friends" in the Authors' Hangout themed contest support threads too. Most were about getting to the minimum 25 votes which wasn't a given even for a well-crafted story, but the practice was dubious.

The yearly awards are so poorly supported that the attempts to 'fix' the results are very obvious. IF they were really popular contests then the voting might be meaningful.

The yearly awards remind me of the UK's Best Dressed/Worst Dressed Man/Woman of the year. Those who are short listed tend to appear in both categories. The result is decided on relative fame, not their dress sense, and for Lit's yearly awards, the visibility of the candidates.

Again, like the themed contests, the entries and the voting would be more even if the numbers were multiplied by ten or a hundred.

 

[lovecraft68]

I'm not sure you're right and here's why. The authors in the AH represent a very small fraction of the lit authors here. They don't come to the boards, they don't see references to cheating or anything at all.

I think that is why there are so few entries on a site this vast. If you don't come to the boards how do you know about the contest? I think there is something on the main story list page?

So I think its a case of most don't know. Just my opinion, nothing to really back it.

as for entries to me there are fewer than it seems because of multiple entries. Example this one has 61-which is low, but this contest seems to have taken over for its predecessor as least popular

But in those 61, you have four, Silkstockinglover has five and Heyall has six. so there is less than fifty authors involved.

ETA another possible deterrent to entering is some people may fear competition even though its not that direct and they aren't aware of the extra exposure and some might be intimidated in a way.

You look at a contest like this and see Tx tall tales and silkstocking lover and I'll mention myself as well. Three of the top four all time favorited authors on this site, plus a lot of other 'big names' Heyall is in the top twenty TX Rad is on the top list and been around forever.

All that means...nothing, popularity here is just that, it doesn't always equate awesome talent and a lot of relative new comers have placed.

But people could wrongly think 'why bother' and...not bother.

 

[oggbashan]

I think that is why there are so few entries on a site this vast. If you don't come to the boards how do you know about the contest? I think there is something on the main story list page?

So I think its a case of most don't know. Just my opinion, nothing to really back it.

...

The contests appear on Literotica's main front page but each is part of a wall of text. They aren't obvious, particularly if you get into Literotica by a bookmarked page such as New Stories.

The schedule for each year's contests is the last post in the Authors' Hangout sticky Welcome Authors! Please Read. Again, that's not obvious. If you are a General Board or Playground regular, you'd never know about the themed contests.

 

[lovecraft68]

Years ago we used to include "support our friends" in the Authors' Hangout themed contest support threads too. Most were about getting to the minimum 25 votes which wasn't a given even for a well-crafted story, but the practice was dubious.

The yearly awards are so poorly supported that the attempts to 'fix' the results are very obvious. IF they were really popular contests then the voting might be meaningful.

The yearly awards remind me of the UK's Best Dressed/Worst Dressed Man/Woman of the year. Those who are short listed tend to appear in both categories. The result is decided on relative fame, not their dress sense, and for Lit's yearly awards, the visibility of the candidates.

Again, like the themed contests, the entries and the voting would be more even if the numbers were multiplied by ten or a hundred.

The several year absence of the yearlies may not be helping either. If it came back consistently maybe each year would see more support.

I posted a comment on the two stories I have nominated about the awards and one in the note on my contest entry saying the awards are going on your support would be appreciated, its 'readers' awards so I let the readers know and figure if they come here even with an intent to vote for me, they are going to see everything else.

So my contest story has 1600 votes. See how many votes I have in whatever I am nominated in. Its a shame.

Silk is on a staggering 13k plus favs pages. Look how many votes she has for incest story of the year. Beyond a shame.

This is a one way street, all authors work hard, post their stories, hundreds of thousands read for three and a pathetic percentage votes and even less comment and even less show up to these things.

 

[sr71plt]

What concerns me more than possible manipulation of the contest scores is that the discussion of cheating is deterring people from entering Literotica contests.

Or maybe it's the obvious cheating that's deterring them. It seems that much of the "put off" discussion is about the sweeps. And why are they necessary? It isn't because of the discussion of cheating; it's because of the cheating, Ogg. This is when I see you floating off in fairyland somewhere--when you fail to consider common sense and reality.

 

[oggbashan]

ETA another possible deterrent to entering is some people may fear competition even though its not that direct and they aren't aware of the extra exposure and some might be intimidated in a way.

You look at a contest like this and see Tx tall tales and silkstocking lover and I'll mention myself as well. Three of the top four all time favorited authors on this site, plus a lot of other 'big names' Heyall is in the top twenty TX Rad is on the top list and been around forever.

All that means...nothing, popularity here is just that, it doesn't always equate awesome talent and a lot of relative new comers have placed.

But people could wrongly think 'why bother' and...not bother.

I can understand intimidation. It is difficult for a new author to expose their work to an audience whether here or elsewhere. Anonymous can be cruel and hurtful for newbies.

The April Fool contest hasn't got the appeal of Valentine's Day or Summer Lovin'. I've found it difficult to write for, and I'm sure some potential entrants have be deterred by the theme. Yes, I wrote four but I wouldn't consider any of the four as one of my best stories because I don't feel that inspired by this particular theme.

Writing a contest entry involves effort and work. The rewards are limited to greater exposure of your work yet that greater exposure can attract the trolls.

How do we get more authors to write for the contests?

Complaining that the contests are fixed does not help.

 

[oggbashan]

Or maybe it's the obvious cheating that's deterring them. It seems that much of the "put off" discussion is about the sweeps. And why are they necessary? It isn't because of the discussion of cheating; it's because of the cheating, Ogg. This is when I see you floating off in fairyland somewhere--when you fail to consider common sense and reality.

Common sense and reality? It seems you are missing some too.

Anon's comments show WHY sweeps are necessary.

 

[sr71plt]

Common sense and reality? It seems you are missing some too.

Anon's comments show WHY sweeps are necessary.

The sweeping in contests goes way beyond sweeping of general file stories. Don't try to tell me otherwise. I've entered every contest for nearly the entire time I've been here and post to the general file in a greater rate than once a week.

 

[lovecraft68]

I can understand intimidation. It is difficult for a new author to expose their work to an audience whether here or elsewhere. Anonymous can be cruel and hurtful for newbies.

The April Fool contest hasn't got the appeal of Valentine's Day or Summer Lovin'. I've found it difficult to write for, and I'm sure some potential entrants have be deterred by the theme. Yes, I wrote four but I wouldn't consider any of the four as one of my best stories because I don't feel that inspired by this particular theme.

Writing a contest entry involves effort and work. The rewards are limited to greater exposure of your work yet that greater exposure can attract the trolls.

How do we get more authors to write for the contests?

Complaining that the contests are fixed does not help.

I seem to be in the minority that I like this theme and don't find it difficult, but I do find it funny the readers seem put off on it because misdirection and trick endings screw with them, they think they are getting their predictable trope and they are not and they get mad. I've never seen another genre that wants to eat the same sandwich every day so to speak as much as erotica.

And not trying to sound 'clever' but it could be said to try to address the issues and fix them and then perhaps push the contests more. I don't push them to people because of the BS that goes on and again I think the sweeps are fairly bogus themselves and that is why its so easy to manipulate these things.

keep your votes down and encourage knee jerk bombs that will get swept and you get huge bumps come sweep times.

A lot of people have been in place to win these things all the way through then are inexplicably bumped and out of nowhere stories place.

BTW that will send people packing after V-day 2012 when I received an obvious epic screwing, three authors posted they wouldn't enter again and never did and one it was their first contest-it was only my second- so things like that-as much or more than what people say has its effect, people get tired of seeing stories not in the top ten come sweep time jet up to number one.

Another thing I noticed on sweeps is the final scores. Before you could place with a 4.82(I did a couple times) now 4.86 is left hanging, a couple contests ago two winners were in the 4.9's I'm sorry, but no story is a legit 4.95 that's insane. The sweeps are cutting too deep, but only some stories...others? They barely touch.

I'll use me as an example. I have entered with mom son 3 straight contests. Each has an exact pattern

4.80 within its first few days, then it stays there for hundreds of votes, then come sweep time, I lose maybe 40-50 votes and maybe .01 up.

Three straight this has happened. Now incest itself has trolls and you don't think I have personal trolls? course I do.

But it seems according to the sweeps, I am never trolled.

Meanwhile I track stories that have 150-200 votes and see then losing 40-50 votes and gaining huge jumps.

easy math 150 vote story 1500 vote story. Each vote is worth more in the 150 vote story.

Sweep 10 from the 150 and 100 from the 1500 you've got about an even sweep.

Take 40 from the 1500 and 40 from the 150, its hardly fair. And I find it hard to believe that a third of the votes of a low voted story are 'illegal' in some way, but only a fraction of the large story is.

Now no one knows for sure how these work and they seem like one of those eight balls you randomly shake, but whatever the issues it inspires no confidence at all these things aren't skewed and badly.

And I think you said above, that people can't really expect them to be fair? Why not? I compete in a lot of things, Pool, darts, at one point Martial arts tournaments and they were fair, there were rules and judges to make sure they were.

Perhaps the answer could be to have a mod run them rather than the site itself and encourage a discussion on how they can be more fairly operated.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

What concerns me more than possible manipulation of the contest scores is that the discussion of cheating is deterring people from entering Literotica contests.

Discussion of cheating doesn't deter me. Entering in a contest and seeing all the two bombs landing within a few *hours* of being posted did. I withdrew, and won't touch contests now. I know sweeps more or less fix it, but why would anyone choose to compete with a bunch of third graders?

The contests are supposed to be a boon to the writers. But they are based on Lit ratings, and Lit ratings are junk. Not only are they prone to easy manipulation from armies of sockpuppets, but for samples less than a couple hundred they're volatile. 500 votes means a score is stable and pretty much out of reach of bombing. 25 votes isn't a large enough sample size.

And why enter? Bragging rights? Someone once described Lit as the Wal-Mart of erotica. Dead on. Having the best product in the particle board - sorry, furniture - section of Wal-Mart isn't a source of brags. It's not worth cheating for, so why deal with people who think it is?

Literotica can't solve the sockpuppet problem in voting. Any solution inconveniences readers, and that ruins their business model. So any rating solution has to rise above the sockpuppet problem.

To do that:

1. Don't show the average score of any story until it has 200+ votes (except to the author, perhaps). Not only will that eliminate "echo chamber" voting (wow, 4.87 - it must be good!) but once a score is visible it's out of reach of most puppeteers. As a side effect, new stories wouldn't be skipped over by hundreds of people because the first two people who rated it happened to hate it.

2. Run contests in a one year timeframe. That gives stories time to get 200 votes.

3. Gather stores for a contest a month in advance, but post them all on the same hour at the end of that month (plus Laurel's cycle time.)

4. Once you've submitted a story, your IP is banned from submitting votes for a year. (DON'T submit stories from work or the local library.) Prolific authors will never get to vote on anything - that's a feature, not a bug. IP addresses of known anonymizers and business IPs in general are blocked from ever voting.

5. Publish the score history - every vote, with IP addresses - for any stories in a contest. This will limit voting to people who don't mind their house's IP address on a public list. Oh well. It provides analysis for people looking for patterns. IP a.b.c.d voted 3's on twenty stories and a 5 on one? Goodbye voting rights.

Too much work? Not fun enough? I agree. But until you have rules like this. contests cannot be fair. You have to eliminate the 3rd graders if you want to compete with adults.

 

[oggbashan]

The Five Star system is misunderstood.

Something not mentioned so far in this thread is the massive flaw in the 5 star voting system.

If someone is new to Literotica, or just inexperienced, or hasn't read any of the discussions, they could make the assumption that the five star system is like normal rating systems (except eBay!).

They might assume:

1 star - a poor story, badly written
2 star - a reasonable story, badly written or a weak story well written.
3 star - an average story, competent in plot and writing and MOST stories would be in this range.
4 star - a better story, not exceptional, but a good plot and well written
5 star - exceptionally good story that excites me and the writing is great too.

A newbie would expect the majority of stories on Literotica to be rated as 3.00 the mean/median and average score.

BUT we know it isn't like that. With HOT set as 4.50, any vote below 4 stars damages the rating. Many readers won't look at any story rated lower than a Red H. The reality is that the only reasonable votes are a 5 or a 4. BUT the average newbie doesn't know that. They can, and do, vote a 3, thinking that is a valid score for an acceptable story. I have had feedback saying "Liked the writing but the plot isn't for me - gave you a three", and "Well written but Femdom isn't my scene so changed a three to a two". In normal statistical terms those people would be right, but not on Literotica (nor on eBay - anything less than a 5 is a black mark against the vendor).

If HOT started at 3.50, then the five star rating would be balanced once people accepted that all votes from 1 to 5 are equally acceptable. But HOT is at 4.50 so a three, a two, or a one star damages the rating disproportionately.

We need a more explicit explanation of how to vote attached to the stars at the end of a story. There should be a pop-up message on 1 star and 2 star asking for words of explanation before that vote can be accepted, and a warning on the 3 star that it is a low vote.

Until then, some people will continue to vote lower than 4 or 5 thinking their rating is a reasonable one, when the impact isn't.

 

[oggbashan]

To do that:

1. Don't show the average score of any story until it has 200+ votes (except to the author, perhaps). Not only will that eliminate "echo chamber" voting (wow, 4.87 - it must be good!) but once a score is visible it's out of reach of most puppeteers. As a side effect, new stories wouldn't be skipped over by hundreds of people because the first two people who rated it happened to hate it.

2. Run contests in a one year timeframe. That gives stories time to get 200 votes.

3. Gather stores for a contest a month in advance, but post them all on the same hour at the end of that month (plus Laurel's cycle time.)

4. Once you've submitted a story, your IP is banned from submitting votes for a year. (DON'T submit stories from work or the local library.) Prolific authors will never get to vote on anything - that's a feature, not a bug. IP addresses of known anonymizers and business IPs in general are blocked from ever voting.

5. Publish the score history - every vote, with IP addresses - for any stories in a contest. This will limit voting to people who don't mind their house's IP address on a public list. Oh well. It provides analysis for people looking for patterns. IP a.b.c.d voted 3's on twenty stories and a 5 on one? Goodbye voting rights.

Too much work? Not fun enough? I agree. But until you have rules like this. contests cannot be fair. You have to eliminate the 3rd graders if you want to compete with adults.

Far simpler than all that:

Ban anonymous voting, commenting and feedback.

All votes must show the number of stars, the user ID and ISP in a pop-up list visible to anyone who clicks on the vote total.

Anonymous is the real bane of the Literotica contests.

 

[lovecraft68]

Far simpler than all that:

Ban anonymous voting, commenting and feedback.

All votes must show the number of stars, the user ID and ISP in a pop-up list visible to anyone who clicks on the vote total.

Anonymous is the real bane of the Literotica contests.

I agree, anonymous is the bane of the site in many ways other than contests.

But perhaps contests could be run with the site turning off not just anon votes,. but comments.

That way only registered users can comment and the cheerleaders dumping multiple glowing comments on the contest story very early to keep it featured on the top of the feedback forum could be identified and exposed for piling onto their friends.

Which is how I showed all this mess to be legit last year by simply linking the comments to last years April Fool's winner and seeing all the suspects right there posting comments in a parade.

Now they do it anon and let's face it authors-the same who would vote for themselves-may also comment anon on their story.

I like the idea of the stories being gathered previously over the course of a month. The contest schedule gives people plenty of time to know when something has to be done by, then all stories are released at the same time.

This also means no more favors from laurel as far as being nice and letting someone submit a day or two late. For once make a rule and stick to it, that favor may be just trying to be nice, but its a smack to all who busted it to get theirs done on time.

 

[RejectReality]

Yep. Banning anonymous is the silver bullet.

 

[LesLumens]

That would put a stop to all the shenanigans.

 

[Darkniciad]

I'm sure that people who wanted to manipulate things wouldn't find a way around it.