Going Mental

[FantasyXY]

I see questions here all the time regarding underage characters in stories. The answer is clear. No person under the age of 18 can have sex of any kind in any story. Persons said to be of age that exhibit underage descriptions and behavior are also not acceptable. There are international exploitation laws that prohibit this sort of thing, and they apply to pornography as well as human trafficking and other exploitation. So the underage sex rules make perfect sense to me.

What I don't know is this...

Are there any rules about characters in stories that are obviously mentally handicapped? I know these stories would probably be in bad taste, but I've never seen an actual rule about it.

The reason I am asking...

I read a Lit story the other day where the male character had to be handicapped. The story was told in this character's voice and the things he said he did seemed like they were straight out of the mental deficiency playbook. The story was short and I decided to see how little it would take to make this thing read start to finish like a story from someone with down syndrome. It wasn't much of a stretch. In less than an hour I had changed just enough words and sentences to make it read exactly as I suspected it would.

No. I'm not wanting to post the story I swiped and changed. That was just one of my ridiculous writing exercises. This is all about curiosity. I really just want to know if there is a mentally handicapped rule or if maybe it would fall under the "acts underage" part of no sex before 18 rule.

 

[sr71plt]

First, there are no laws whatsoever in the United States about writing about anything done underage in fiction, and it's all written about in the mainstream. There are laws concerning photographic images, but not fiction writing.

We'll see about the mental impairment issue. Starting Friday, a series of mine from a well-selling 2012 bisexual novel (Luther) should start posting here. The protagonist is a bit mentally challenged but also heavenly endowed and is taken advantage of (maybe) left and right by men and women alike. In the end--for those who make it that far--it turns out he's not as mentally off as folks might think and is enjoying himself. I've had no backlash on the book and, assuming it gets posted here, I'll blow raspberries at anyone who claims to be insulted by it. Everyone, including any form of handicapped, is welcome to have sex in my book.

I do have a few involving the physically handicapped--both GM and straight--the most notable of which is a GM one, "The Gift" (https://www.literotica.com/s/a-gift-7), which has been commented on quite a bit, more positively than negatively, and, over the years, has vacillated back and forth around the hot zone. It's at 4.49 at the moment.

 

[Hypoxia]

There are international exploitation laws that prohibit this sort of thing, and they apply to pornography...

As Pilot said, that is simply not so. And as has been noted repeatedly, the underage rule is applied by LITs owner, not by law.

I recently posed an unanswered question about mental capacity in stories like BIG where a minor finds themself in an adult body. The mechanism might be magic, or a coma. I've read at least one such LIT story, highly rated; magic was the trick there. I'm considering writing of a well-tended comatose kid awakening at 18 with a prepubescent mind. But that's cutting it close -- I may have to write tragedy. Do other authors see ethical problems here?

Writing erotic tales about the severely retarded might be a challenge; the moderately retarded may be merely tedious.

 

[Ewobbit]

At one point in my checkered past I worked the over night shift at a mentally handicapped group home. I think my title was Program Assistant or something like that, but I was really just a glorified babysitter, sheet changer, and step-and-fetch for the duty nurse. (Which suited me fine as I didn't want to think too hard since it was a second paycheck to my main one as a counselor at the state lockup)

At the time (many blue moons ago), the ink on my diploma was hardly dry and I was full of all sorts of useless book knowledge and very, very conscious of legal issues since I'd seen them bite too many people in the ass even in my limited experiences.

I was called on the carpet for chasing people back to their own beds when I caught them humping away. What I was told was that so long as it was resident on resident, since all residents were at minimum eighteen, I was not allowed to discourage sexual activities in the sanctity of their own rooms.

When I brought up informed consent (already a hot button issue back then) what I was told (repeatedly) was unless there was a complaint lodged, a health issue (which the nurse would inform me of), or there were obvious signs of coercion (blood, bruises, etc.), then I was to back the fuck out and leave them too it.

I may be talking out of my ass since that was... well, fuck, I'd rather not think about just how long ago that was... but, I think so long as they were over the chronological age of eighteen and one did not have some form of power over the other that would qualify as coercion, it would be leave them to their screwing each other in the ear.

(That was not trying to be funny, by the way. I did walk in on a guy ramming his dick against his roommates ear. And the guy who's ear it was just grinned his gape-toothed grin at me and kept jacking his own dick. )

 

[Handley_Page]

As Pilot said, that is simply not so.
And as has been noted repeatedly, the underage rule is applied by LITs owner, not by law.

Writing erotic tales about the severely retarded might be a challenge; the moderately retarded may be merely tedious.

I feel some 'explanation' may be in order as to why this is.

As I understand it, it is not seen as 'good' to encourage sex in the young.
It can lead to medical problems, as well as the problems of parenting.
Some organisations (at least) see it in strictly biblical Black & White terms and have the power and influence to cause fiscal harm to a promoter thereof.
So - keep clear: Don't rock the boat.

 

[Sammael Bard]

US laws on Child Pornography:

https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ceos/citizens-guide-us-federal-law-obscenity

There are no laws (that I can see) which prevents someone from writing Underage erotica.

Talking about Lit, making a character "Mentally Handicapped" is a cheap way to bypass Lit rules. Let's be honest, most people out here won't use "Mentally Handicapped" as a plot device. Titillating readers would be their first intent.

Meh... anyway, it's up to Laurel to decide. Report the story if you feel it's violating teh rules.

Good luck.

 

[sr71plt]

Talking about Lit, making a character "Mentally Handicapped" is a cheap way to bypass Lit rules. Let's be honest, most people out here won't use "Mentally Handicapped" as a plot device. Titillating readers would be their first intent.

Depends how they are handled. When I've written a character with disabilities of any sort, I get comments from people with that disability who thank me for not making them nonpersons in sexuality. So, I think you do them a disservice in such a blanket statement.

 

[Sammael Bard]

Depends how they are handled. When I've written a character with disabilities of any sort, I get comments from people with that disability who thank me for not making them nonpersons in sexuality. So, I think you do them a disservice in such a blanket statement.

"Writing a character with disability of any kind" isn't the same as "Using-a-Mental-Handicap-excuse-to-make-this-20-something-girl-act-like-a-14-year-old-slut-and-use-it-to-titillate-some-sickos". I'm specifically talking about the second case as this is the topic of this thread.

 

[sr71plt]

I don't think the OP limited the topic as you presumed it did. It just said that the character of the story "had to be handicapped." It didn't say that that was the only or even primary focus of the story--or that the thrust of the story would be to disparage that handicap. Glad to know you didn't mean what you actually posted, though.

 

[FantasyXY]

I don't think the OP limited the topic as you presumed it did. It just said that the character of the story "had to be handicapped." It didn't say that that was the only or even primary focus of the story--or that the thrust of the story would be to disparage that handicap. Glad to know you didn't mean what you actually posted, though.

You are correct Pilot - I did put "had to be handicapped" in my original post, and I did intend for this discussion to center around using any mentally handicapped person in a story.

However, Sammael Bard hit the nail on the head concerning the story that first raised this question in my head. The character in this story was supposedly a 22 year old man, but he often acted like a 10 year old boy. At one point this supposed 22 year old man was making a "fort" in a round clothing rack at a department store to "hide" from his mom.

The author never pointed out that the character had a mental condition, but the wording of the character's account of what happened was written in a way that all I could think of was the character must have downs syndrome.

Maybe the author has just such a mental handicap himself. If that is the case, I applaud him for his work. If not, I really do wonder if the author wasn't just trying to skirt the underage rule.

 

[LIVINRFANTASIES]

D-!-------Personally I am going mental over a question.
But first I got an author and the author actually thinks my first two short stories are fine as is. I did have to alter ages a bit.

The unanswered question and important to our first years in this story............ can I mention we were married and had a baby? No child sex, nothing except we needed a baby sitter to go out and play our games. Also the baby was the reason several of D***'s GF's began hanging around. All persons are 18 and above except the baby.

Any help appreciated.

 

[sr71plt]

You are correct Pilot - I did put "had to be handicapped" in my original post, and I did intend for this discussion to center around using any mentally handicapped person in a story.

However, Sammael Bard hit the nail on the head concerning the story that first raised this question in my head. The character in this story was supposedly a 22 year old man, but he often acted like a 10 year old boy. At one point this supposed 22 year old man was making a "fort" in a round clothing rack at a department store to "hide" from his mom.

The author never pointed out that the character had a mental condition, but the wording of the character's account of what happened was written in a way that all I could think of was the character must have downs syndrome.

Maybe the author has just such a mental handicap himself. If that is the case, I applaud him for his work. If not, I really do wonder if the author wasn't just trying to skirt the underage rule.

The bard's initial response was a blanket "making a character 'Mentally Handicapped' is a cheap way to bypass Lit rules. Let's be honest, most people out here won't use 'Mentally Handicapped' as a plot device." That's what he posted; no hedging.

And I say if you won't use a mental (or other) handicap as a plot device and claim that any use of the devise is an attempt to bypass Lit. rules on age, you are blocking someone mentally handicapped to any degree behind a "no sex for you" wall. I posted that it depends on how that device--and it doesn't have to be either the only or the major device--is used.

You can start moving the goal posts now--both of you--but I responded to what was actually posted.

 

[Bramblethorn]

The unanswered question and important to our first years in this story............ can I mention we were married and had a baby? No child sex, nothing except we needed a baby sitter to go out and play our games. Also the baby was the reason several of D***'s GF's began hanging around. All persons are 18 and above except the baby.

Any help appreciated.

Sure. Mentioning children is fine, just don't sexualise them. One of mine starts out with a primary-school teacher interacting with her class.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

I recently posed an unanswered question about mental capacity in stories like BIG where a minor finds themself in an adult body. The mechanism might be magic, or a coma. I've read at least one such LIT story, highly rated; magic was the trick there. I'm considering writing of a well-tended comatose kid awakening at 18 with a prepubescent mind. But that's cutting it close -- I may have to write tragedy. Do other authors see ethical problems here?

I don't see *ethical* problems with sex in anyone normal over about 15. It used to be the norm, in a lot of europe it's entirely legal, etc. The "right" age has been wandering all over the place, from 13 to 21, in different places and times, for centuries. There's pros and cons to both ages on the high end and low end, and it depends in part of what kind of society you want. As long as there is truly informed consent (hard to imagine at 13), and a society prepared to deal with the consequences (hard to imagine at almost any age), set the age where you like; it's not an ethical question.

But if you stuff a 11 year old mind in an 18 year old body and have that character have sexual experiences, as far as I'm concerned that's not just an end-run around Laurel's rules, but mere candy for pedophiles. I have all sorts of ethical issues with that.

 

[NotWise]

It would be a challenge to make an interesting erotic character from someone who has very much of an intellectual handicap. Forrest Gump was a great character. Was he erotic?

It just seems to me like there are so many better options for erotic stories.

There are also more than one kind of mental handicap. So, what if your characters are schizophrenic or bipolar or borderline? There aren't any rules that I know of that would prevent you from using those characters, but will the readers accept them as good characters?

My two stories in EC both feature a bipolar, hypomanic, hypersexual woman. I actually use that description because "nymphomaniac" has too many preconceptions associated with it. I've had enough feedback at this point to conclude that readers don't connect with the character. Too bad, because she is a sweet, capable and intelligent person in most regards.

If your readers can't associate with the character, then why write it?

 

[sr71plt]

For variety and to encourage readers to broaden themselves? (and, in this case, to avoid writing off the handicapped in various ways as being too substandard to have erotic sex lives?)

I take it Lit. votes control your writing choices? I keep trying to find new issues to write on rather than stick with Lit. high vote formulas. That seems awfully limiting and small-bowl world.

 

[LIVINRFANTASIES]

Sure. Mentioning children is fine, just don't sexualise them. One of mine starts out with a primary-school teacher interacting with her class.

D-!-Thanks I got impatient and checked to see how to post stories. It's easier than I thought. I added the first one and am waiting to see it added or see me tared and feathered. The feather part sounds kinky!

Thanks.

 

[LIVINRFANTASIES]

Our youngest son, in his 20's, adopted to explain why we have a young son, was dating a bipolar nymphomaniac for a while. That was a real winner!

I'm sure there are stories there.

 

[NotWise]

For variety and to encourage readers to broaden themselves? (and, in this case, to avoid writing off the handicapped in various ways as being too substandard to have erotic sex lives?)

You didn't quote anyone, so I'll assume you were responding to me. Maybe some narcissism?

I'll admit that the reader's votes and comments do count for me, because that is most of the feedback I get.

In this case, one of the stories was more work than I thought I would ever put into 7,000 words (without equations and illustrations, anyway) and I looked for feedback. The story didn't work for a lot of the people who responded and the main reason seemed to be that they couldn't connect to that one character. Honestly, if I characterized her as a nymphomaniac, or sex-addicted and didn't try to make a person out of her then it probably would have made sense to more people.

Maybe after I write a few (dozen) more stories then I can take on Pilot's attitude. As is, I have a hard time imagining that my stories are going to broaden anyone's concepts, and maybe for now it would be good to write a story that some readers understand.

Getting back to the original topic, making a real character out of someone with any kind of mental handicap can be a problem. I'm sure that it can be done, but unless you're using Pilot's reasons, then why?

 

[sr71plt]

Getting back to the original topic, making a real character out of someone with any kind of mental handicap can be a problem. I'm sure that it can be done, but unless you're using Pilot's reasons, then why?

I may not have the only good reason for doing so--and I don't spend a lot of time thinking of reasons not to write on a wide variety of themes. I certainly don't use "it won't rack up a lot of high-rate votes at Lit." as a reason either to or not to write a story. That's not the form of prostitution I write about for Literotica.

 

[NotWise]

I may not have the only good reason for doing so--and I don't spend a lot of time thinking of reasons not to write on a wide variety of themes. I certainly don't use "it won't rack up a lot of high-rate votes at Lit." as a reason either to or not to write a story. That's not the form of prostitution I write about for Literotica.

I was at a conference a few years ago when an old friend of mine stood up in a well-attended session to comment "Calling this intellectual prostitution would cast a bad light on honorable sex professionals."

He was upset by the content of the presentation. Of course, the embarrassed presenter had his own reasons for making his presentation. Prostitution is the mother of all professions.

 

[sr71plt]

I was at a conference a few years ago when an old friend of mine stood up in a well-attended session to comment "Calling this intellectual prostitution would cast a bad light on honorable sex professionals."

He was upset by the content of the presentation. Of course, the embarrassed presenter had his own reasons for making his presentation. Prostitution is the mother of all professions.

Spying is a competitor for that. I've done both and haven't made up my mind which one came first. Actually, I've done them together now that I think about it.

 

[NotWise]

Spying is a competitor for that. I've done both and haven't made up my mind which one came first. Actually, I've done them together now that I think about it.

Mata Hari of a more recent age.

But back to...

 

[FantasyXY]

I had an erotic experience of sorts with a "retarded girl" (her words) several years ago. I had forgotten about it, and this experience didn't cross my mind when I started this thread. But Pilot's continual assertion that the handicapped have sex drives, and may indeed have story worthy experiences, reminded me of what happened between me and the retarded girl (again her words).

This experience was though email back in the late 90's with 28 year old woman whom I actually never met. She did email me an erotic drawing she did though. It was on lined notebook paper and done in crayon (The 16 color I believe). Let's just say she had a vivid imagination of what goes on in a shower, and she drew me with a very generous and squirting appendage.

In the email that had the drawing, was a bunch of erotic stuff from the woman, plus a short note from her father telling about his daughter, her handicap, and how it was "okay" for her to do what she was doing. Apparently she had even asked her dad to scan and attach the drawing because she didn't know how.

I never thought that would make a good story, but Maybe a story from her POV would indeed be erotic... Daddy, I want to be naked with a boy I found on the Internet. Will you help me daddy.

Yeah, it could be erotic, but the author would have to be pretty careful.

 

[AMoveableBeast]

I had an erotic experience of sorts with a "retarded girl" (her words) several years ago. I had forgotten about it, and this experience didn't cross my mind when I started this thread. But Pilot's continual assertion that the handicapped have sex drives, and may indeed have story worthy experiences, reminded me of what happened between me and the retarded girl (again her words).

This experience was though email back in the late 90's with 28 year old woman whom I actually never met. She did email me an erotic drawing she did though. It was on lined notebook paper and done in crayon (The 16 color I believe). Let's just say she had a vivid imagination of what goes on in a shower, and she drew me with a very generous and squirting appendage.

In the email that had the drawing, was a bunch of erotic stuff from the woman, plus a short note from her father telling about his daughter, her handicap, and how it was "okay" for her to do what she was doing. Apparently she had even asked her dad to scan and attach the drawing because she didn't know how.

I never thought that would make a good story, but Maybe a story from her POV would indeed be erotic... Daddy, I want to be naked with a boy I found on the Internet. Will you help me daddy.

Yeah, it could be erotic, but the author would have to be pretty careful.

Wow. I consider myself a fairly ambitious smut writer, as such things go, but that would take some real skill to do justice to in any kind of quasi-sensitive way. It's actually compelling, if fairly icky.

Not sure I would touch it with a ten-foot pen.