Everyday Feminism

[Lancecastor]

Feminism is not seeking equality, it's seeking acknowledgment. Women are real. In whatever form they choose to be seen, they expect to be treated as valuable instead of a pair of tits and a couple holes.

Amusingly, this also explains the easiest way to get a woman into bed...don't show any interest in her tits and holes.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Amusingly, this also explains the easiest way to get a woman into bed...don't show any interest in her tits and holes.

Drives strippers crazy!!!

 

[Lancecastor]

Nice Feminists need to understand a simple fact.

The adult female is available in one of two forms....nice girls, and the ones with tits and holes.

Each variety is respected for its value.

 

[Brave Maximus]

Some good real responses... and then some other ones....
I'll tackle the real ones...
Unfortunately I have a full day, so... it might take me a while...

I only read one article there about appropriating Indian women's cultural things and while informative, I also found it a bit limited esp. when addressing the wearing of Mehndi (henna) by non south Asians.
Considering the wearing of henna has been practiced for over 5000 years in Pakistan, India, Africa and the Middle East, I do not think it should be limited to just south Asian weddings.
I wear henna on special occasions and after attending henna parties. Some are traditional far and middle eastern all women ones and others are in connection with belly dancing.
I am a mixture of a lot of cultures, including far eastern ones, but I don't have any problem with other people wearing henna if they feel like that, or blindi, tikki, or anything else.
I believe in the melting pot of the world, most things are appropriated from somewhere else than where we currently are anyway.

One of the biggest hot-button topics is "Cultural Appropriation". The biggest issue, and it plays right into what I'm talking about, is that it's about snap judgements made on limited and often incorrect information. It's then coupled with an attitude of "well, if you don't agree with us, you're evil and wrong and a horrible human being", which stifles conversation unless you're really stubborn and thick headed.... like me.
The issue of Cultural Appropriation is something that could get me ranting for some time.... as there are legitimate instances of it, that get watered down and distracted from, by crap like what you're talking about with the henna/Mehndi.
Thanks for speaking up though, given what came before you!

 

[Brave Maximus]

Doing some of these seperate as they deserve individual conversation, and others need to be lumped together.

It seems a little Women's Studies 101, but they look pretty well-intentioned.

Re: the 'we know better than you' issue ... I think we sort of need to take it for granted that women know how patriarchal social situations impact on women a little bit better than men do. Having said that, they impact on men too, and I'd expect men are probably better positioned to speak to that.

It can be helpful to remember that feminism is not 'a' thing - there's multiple different feminist approaches to pretty much everything, and we argue amongst ourselves ALL the time.

I think that's my biggest issue with it. There are a lot of well intentioned people there. However, when you're in a community of like minded individuals, insulating yourself from dissenting oppinion, added in with some people who are just angry, want to get back at certain groups or just start problems.... it gets to be an issue.

You also hit the nail on the head with "women know women's issues and men know men's issue"
If you only look at a problem or only want to deal with a problem from one side... nothing will ever happen... both sides need to come together, and when you isolate one side....
And the above statement can be ammended to say Black/white, gay/strait or any other issue you can think of....

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Feminism is the modern day Women's Christian Temperance Union. Women are always pissed about something.

 

[Brave Maximus]

But but but.. the menz has to tell us what feminism is and how to be a feminist!

I think if he went to a radical Feminist site his head would explode.

It's a little bit of a pity that some people STILL think that ALL (or even most) feminism is "an antagonistic approach with "all men have the power, all men want to keep women down, all men are scum and rapists and mysoginists, all men are pigs"." I'd hoped we'd moved on a little, but oh well.

Do.... do I have to say anything...? Or... does that pretty much explain itself?

l2r - I can't tell if you're just purposefully being antagonistic (which I hope is the case) or you're just missing my point completely....
I've been to radical feminist sites, my head did explode, because it's completely useless. And yes, I said useless, and said so on purpose.
It's useless because it will not accomplish anything. It isolates those that would help you and puts the backs up of those you say have "complete and total power", negating any motivation they may have of furthering the goal.
I completely understand the need to be angry, to swear, lose your cool, bitch and complain about the opposite sex or those in confrontation with you. But to actually accomplish something? Coming at anything from those places is useless.

Kim - Not all guys think that. Hell, I'd argue that most guys don't think that way. However, when any anti-feminist can bring up articles from edf or other sites proving the vitrol in a lot of feminist arguments (and, in the case of that site, someone trying to prove how the anti-racism movement is racist, etc) - then even moderate guys can sit there and go "I want nothing to do with that".

I don't have enough faith in humanity to believe that the average person is smart enough to know that these are not the attitudes that most feminists have. Though, edf.... it's becoming more and more popular and becoming so much more of a problem...

 

[Brave Maximus]

I had a look at the site and read the article about the mental health of babies.

What a steaming load of shit.

Going to avoid most of what you posted in this thread....
But in response to this... check out "Do Feminists need to be Vegan/Vegitarian" or the White Privilage "cartoon"....
That should get you ranting.....

 

[Lancecastor]

Going to avoid most of what you posted in this thread....
But in response to this... check out "Do Feminists need to be Vegan/Vegitarian" or the White Privilage "cartoon"....
That should get you ranting.....

Ranting? Hardly. I'm just laughing at your choice of work.

 

[Brave Maximus]

Look at a lot of the guys in the general board, this is why some feminists feel they can never move on.

The only popular women here who never get harassed by the men are the ones who show their tits and flirt all the time. Have a non revealing avatar and express strong opinions and you're a cunt.

Understanding, of course, that feminism does not preclude women from wanting to show their bodies or receive compliments, right? That doing so does not at all mean that one defines her self-worth by her physical appearance? Slut-shaming is not feminism.

You are a miserable human. Just miserable.

Feminism doesn't mean not showing skin.It's easier to be free with yourself if you feel secure.

Ummmm ladies? I think you missed his point completely?

He wasn't slut-shaming, he was pointing out that most guys on here are jerks? That if you're not showing skin and venturing an oppinion other than how easy you are, guys will call you horrible names and that's exactly why feminists have such a hard time on here....

It's almost like some guys skim over what a girl writes, picks out the pieces that fit their pre-conceived notions and then jump all over it, calling the girl horrible things, when they've completely missed the point?
<.<
>.>

 

[Brave Maximus]

Ranting? Hardly. I'm just laughing at your choice of work.

Worst part? This isn't my work... I volunteer to subject myself to this sort of stuff...

The interesting part.... everyone's jumped on the feminist side of the site... and completely ignored the racist parts..... I'm not sure what that says, tbh...

 

[Lancecastor]

Worst part? This isn't my work... I volunteer to subject myself to this sort of stuff...

The interesting part.... everyone's jumped on the feminist side of the site... and completely ignored the racist parts..... I'm not sure what that says, tbh...

It says you need to volunteer somewhere with less insane women.

 

[Brave Maximus]

Feminism is not seeking equality.

And this is the problem.









I know you said other things (and I'll deal with them in a second) - but the second you say that, every guy (and to be fair, a lot of women) who are moderate, or less tollerant, just tuned you out. Even if you came up with the cure for cancer, solved world hunger, and created gender equality.... that statement right there shuts down conversations.

Now... to what you actually said:

Feminism is not seeking equality, it's seeking acknowledgment. Women are real. In whatever form they choose to be seen, they expect to be treated as valuable instead of a pair of tits and a couple holes.

This is the dichotomy of feminism. In it's inception it was equality with men. The goal, a society where men and women are afforded each opportunity equally. Now you're saying you just want acknowledgement? Of course woment are real. I acknowledge that! Does that mean my involvement is over?

What about being more value than a pair of tits and holes? Ignoring the media for the moment (which even I will admit is horribly sexist, on so many levels) - Women should be free to wear what they want, but if they choose to dress in a provocative way, should you be surpised/angry that guys (and girls) gawk? I'm not talking about being harrased, because as far as I'm concerned you should be able to walk around naked and never fear sexual harrasment or assault...
But, if you walk around naked, people will look at you, and to be honest, they won't take you seriously.

This is not a double standard, as when a cut guy walks down the street with tight shorts/jeans, tight shirt, etc, he also gets oogled. And, in any sort of professional setting will be taken just as lightly.

I agree that feminism means you should be able to wear anything you want... but it doesn't free you from responsibilty of needing to dress, and act, professionally when the situation calls for it.

There are a bunch of guys I know that also need to learn this lesson.... ><

(I have a feeling, that of all the things I've said, this one's going to generate the most flack... which is interesting in and of itself.)

 

[evesdream]

http://weird-sister.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/manaf.jpg?w=500

 

[Sinny]

http://weird-sister.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/manaf.jpg?w=500

That's all I could think when I read the OP. Oh, goodie, he's gonna mansplain everything to us! Yay!

 

[Lancecastor]

Are those pleats or is he multi-peened?

 

[evesdream]

That's all I could think when I read the OP. Oh, goodie, he's gonna mansplain everything to us! Yay!

Women are doing feminism wrong, haven't you heard? It's okay though, Brave Maximus is here to help.

 

[Brave Maximus]

So, I was going to say that I'm ignoring the picture you posted.... but I realize that by saying that, I'm acknowledging it... so: Wow... if that wasn't the most passive-agressive matronizingly horrible thing I've seen today?
But hey, you continued on, so..... so will I:

That's all I could think when I read the OP. Oh, goodie, he's gonna mansplain everything to us! Yay!

Women are doing feminism wrong, haven't you heard? It's okay though, Brave Maximus is here to help.

Nope. That's a lie. You didn't read the original post. You couldn't have. The original post (quoted below, because I know you're not going to go back and read it) doesn't "explain" anything. I asked a couple of questions and asked for people oppinions. Other than one point where I stated my thoughts about a SPECIFIC SITE, in no way did I offer my oppinion on feminisim, racism or bigotry as a whole.

So I'm going to call you on it. No. You're lying. In no way did you read the original post.

I will own up to the fact that some of my responses this morning may have been less questioning and more of statements. I will own that completely. When conversations revolve around heated topics, they tend to make statements instead of open ended questions. I had confidence in the people here on Lit that they would be able to see it as that, and be able to offer their own statements in response and there by keeping the conversation going.
So, did I make statements about my oppinions instead of questions? Yup. Will I do so again? Yup. Do I believe that I have the right of everything, and that my statements should be taken as gospel or law? Hell no! In fact, I hope people challenge them! I hope someone comes along and says "Hey Brave, I don't agree with you. Have you looked at it from this point of view?"
Though... while I don't expect it to be that rationally written....
That being said, some people have exceeded my expectations, Irizum, Noor, SomeoneFamiliar (even if I didn't agree with her )
This goes to the heart of what I'm talking about - CONVERSATION is the first step to understanding.

More on that below the quote, because I want you to see my OP. But, I doubt you'll look below... You've made your mind up.

Hi,
I haven't ventured into GB since my first year on Lit.
However, this is one of the places where I might get an honest answer with no punches pulled.

Because of some work I've become involved in, I am now getting linked to this site (everydayfeminism.com) a few times a day.

I wish I could pretend it was satire... but I know it's not. They take themselves very seriously.
I know I'm about the exact opposite of it's target demographic....

But could someone A) Explain this site to me? Why it exists, how can they believe what they're saying, how they can expect any sort of positive change from what they're saying.... that sort of thing.
And B) What in the blue hell they are smoking?

Thanks

Sinny, but particularly Evesdream, you did accomplish your goal though. You've shut down the conversation. Someone took a view that is in opposition of yours, and instead of debating or explaining, you shut down the conversation with accusations of sexism. Now every guy that might have ventured an oppinion will think twice because he might be labeled as "mansplaining" it to the "womenfolk" (god, what a horribly matronizing statement. Really? In what possible way could that foster any sort of conversation). It would take a brave (or stupid in my case) man to walk into that situation now. What about other women? Who may not agree with the more radical stances presented by everydayfeminism and you? Now they have to worry about being lumped in with the worst kind of images that damned picture represents. It would take a brave woman to step up to that (and I hope they're on here).

My hat is off to you....

 

[SomeoneFamiliar]

But you don't want opinions. You want to pick a fight and tell us how all feminists should be feminizing. Seems pretty obvious.
Also, I'd like to apologize. I didn't realize what I wear makes me what you perceive. Perhaps I like my legs, or my ass, and feel as though I can and should have the right to show them off for me, not because of your opinion. But go on, I'm sure you have more to add.

 

[Sinny]

Oh, I read it. Oh, yes. And it was obvious from post one that all you wanted to do was mansplain stuff. Oh, and pick a fight, as the person above me noted.

Yawn. Seriously. This bit has been so played out. Pick new material.

 

[Brollyanna]

So, I was going to say that I'm ignoring the picture you posted.... but I realize that by saying that, I'm acknowledging it... so: Wow... if that wasn't the most passive-agressive matronizingly horrible thing I've seen today?
But hey, you continued on, so..... so will I:






Nope. That's a lie. You didn't read the original post. You couldn't have. The original post (quoted below, because I know you're not going to go back and read it) doesn't "explain" anything. I asked a couple of questions and asked for people oppinions. Other than one point where I stated my thoughts about a SPECIFIC SITE, in no way did I offer my oppinion on feminisim, racism or bigotry as a whole.

So I'm going to call you on it. No. You're lying. In no way did you read the original post.

I will own up to the fact that some of my responses this morning may have been less questioning and more of statements. I will own that completely. When conversations revolve around heated topics, they tend to make statements instead of open ended questions. I had confidence in the people here on Lit that they would be able to see it as that, and be able to offer their own statements in response and there by keeping the conversation going.
So, did I make statements about my oppinions instead of questions? Yup. Will I do so again? Yup. Do I believe that I have the right of everything, and that my statements should be taken as gospel or law? Hell no! In fact, I hope people challenge them! I hope someone comes along and says "Hey Brave, I don't agree with you. Have you looked at it from this point of view?"
Though... while I don't expect it to be that rationally written....
That being said, some people have exceeded my expectations, Irizum, Noor, SomeoneFamiliar (even if I didn't agree with her )
This goes to the heart of what I'm talking about - CONVERSATION is the first step to understanding.

More on that below the quote, because I want you to see my OP. But, I doubt you'll look below... You've made your mind up.





Sinny, but particularly Evesdream, you did accomplish your goal though. You've shut down the conversation. Someone took a view that is in opposition of yours, and instead of debating or explaining, you shut down the conversation with accusations of sexism. Now every guy that might have ventured an oppinion will think twice because he might be labeled as "mansplaining" it to the "womenfolk" (god, what a horribly matronizing statement. Really? In what possible way could that foster any sort of conversation). It would take a brave (or stupid in my case) man to walk into that situation now. What about other women? Who may not agree with the more radical stances presented by everydayfeminism and you? Now they have to worry about being lumped in with the worst kind of images that damned picture represents. It would take a brave woman to step up to that (and I hope they're on here).

My hat is off to you....

I hold the "oppinion" that feminists (and women in general) are not under an obligation to hold one, homogeneous "oppinion".
I'd go as far as saying that women have the right to hold smart, clever, insightful, silly, wrong and downright dumb "oppinions", just like men have.

We also have the right to be dismissive of condescending "oppinions" in much the same way that you do.

 

[Wings]

Ummmm ladies? I think you missed his point completely?

He wasn't slut-shaming, he was pointing out that most guys on here are jerks? That if you're not showing skin and venturing an oppinion other than how easy you are, guys will call you horrible names and that's exactly why feminists have such a hard time on here....

It's almost like some guys skim over what a girl writes, picks out the pieces that fit their pre-conceived notions and then jump all over it, calling the girl horrible things, when they've completely missed the point?
<.<
>.>

I didn't miss anything Hashtag.

 

[JohnnySavage]

I hold the "oppinion" that feminists (and women in general) are not under an obligation to hold one, homogeneous "oppinion".
I'd go as far as saying that women have the right to hold smart, clever, insightful, silly, wrong and downright dumb "oppinions", just like men have.

We also have the right to be dismissive of condescending "oppinions" in much the same way that you do.

That's just crazy talk!

 

[Brollyanna]

That's just crazy talk!

Damn, busted.

 

[Brave Maximus]

But you don't want opinions. You want to pick a fight and tell us how all feminists should be feminizing. Seems pretty obvious.
Also, I'd like to apologize. I didn't realize what I wear makes me what you perceive. Perhaps I like my legs, or my ass, and feel as though I can and should have the right to show them off for me, not because of your opinion. But go on, I'm sure you have more to add.

But.... but.... but.... but.......:

What about being more value than a pair of tits and holes? Ignoring the media for the moment (which even I will admit is horribly sexist, on so many levels) - Women should be free to wear what they want...
...because as far as I'm concerned you should be able to walk around naked and never fear sexual harrasment or assault...

I agree that feminism means you should be able to wear anything you want... but it doesn't free you from responsibilty of needing to dress, and act, professionally when the situation calls for it.

Or do you believe that you should be able to wear anything in any situation without consiquence?
Or is it that you believe guys should just not look at you?
Do you believe there is a difference between objectification and appreciation? At what point can we look at another person without them getting offended?