The lesbian category - disrespectful categorizations

[BitterIchor]

Hi.

I'm sick and tired of constantly stumbling over stories in the lesbian category that involve heterosexual sex. That is not cool. People like me (gay women who are not attracted to men in the least) can't really find anything that excites us in any other category. As it is now, every other story is some heternormative male fantasy or married hetero couple story.

If you want to write a story about a male/female married couple having a threesome with another women or some other kind of storyline that is great! But consider putting it in a more suitable category than the lesbian one.

Thank you.

 

[PennLady]

There's a lot of crossover in categories, and it can be frustrating. OTOH, you get what you pay for. If you really feel it's been miscategorized, you could send a private message to Laurel, who vets the stories, and tell her. She may not change it, but that's the way that has the highest odds of it getting changed.

I'm not saying it's great, or what you're looking for, but I wrote a lesbian story that doesn't even have a male character in it. if you read it, hope you enjoy.

https://www.literotica.com/s/lessons-learned-14

 

[BreakTheBar]

I usually wouldn't engage a topic like this since in my opinion it comes down to personal taste, but I recognized your name from one of my comment sections and thought I would drop in.

Your sexuality, what turns you on and what you read, reread or post on Lit is totally sacred to you. I completely agree that stories posted in the Lesbian category should be primarily focused on Lesbian encounters. The same for Gay Male. I note the words 'primarily focused' however, as there is no strict line or rule on segregation of sexuality on the site.

I am a straight man. I understand and have friends who identify as gay and would probably enjoy reading some of the stories I click away from when they make a surprise turn to male on male when posted in a category I usually enjoy.

What you need to realize is that this site is not organized, nor posted to, for any one person's sexuality. If you want to keep Lesbian/Gay Male categories sacred, you should not also try to enforce your views on stories posted in other categories. I have noticed you comment on a few stories, including one of my own, that you felt it necessary to let the author know you disagreed with the fact that a 'lesbian' character, at some point in their life, may want to or would willingly have sex with a man and that you would downvote the story on that basis.

My suggestion is to keep it simple. If you are not a fan of heterosexual porn and it crops up in a story you're reading, a simple request to the author that their future stories get a little tag at the top noting whether or not the 'lesbian' story is actually lesbian-centric is enough. This is a friendly community (for the most part), becoming militant only serves to degrade that community and make your, albeit anonymous, username gain a reputation.

Overall I agree with your topic, but not with your sentiment. If you want to see more purely lesbian stories, the first and best thing you can do is go ahead and write them and inspire others to do the same.


~Break.

 

[TxRad]

There is a report button with each and every story. If you think it shouldn't be in the lesbian category, hit it, say why you think its in the wrong place, and send it on its way. That is a direct line to Laurel who is the only one who can change it.

 

[BitterIchor]

I have noticed you comment on a few stories, including one of my own, that you felt it necessary to let the author know you disagreed with the fact that a 'lesbian' character, at some point in their life, may want to or would willingly have sex with a man and that you would downvote the story on that basis.

Yes. It's a real problem in popular culture and media. Lesbians aren't taken seriously because they are constantly used as titillating objects for heterosexual people. Our sexuality is portrayed as overly malleable; we're not really gay, we just need the right dick to make us see the light, things like that. It's a part of a general condescending disrespect for women in general. We're portrayed as fickle and not really knowing what we want.

So yes, I take every opportunity to object to what I see as harmful and ignorant depictions of lesbians. I don't see a problem with that. It's a valid criticism. I do admit that I can lose my temper and get a little rude sometimes. Especially if I've stumbled over several of those kind of stories in a row (which I often do, unfortunately). That's not cool and I need to stop that.

If these kind of complaints are seen as "militant", then I guess people like me simply aren't welcome here?

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

I definitely get the point the OP has made - when I read some of these stories they (some) sound so fundamentally crass and so myopically conservative male-slanted that they just don't sound authentic for one thing. Even for me!

By authentic what I mean is that, even with respect to those SOME (again, that word 'some') lesbians who 'might' do the bi thing, maybe, even here it just comes across as desperately inauthentic.

That having been said, I have met A LOT of people in my life (who hasn't!) - and frankly, I have to say, people come in unique forms: there are ALL KINDS OF LESBIANS. In my view, anyway.

Yes there definitely SHOULD be stories that are authentic to the OP, and pitched for her own perspective/outlook. In the end, you have to basically write them yourself if you think there aren't any or aren't enough of what you would like to read. That's why I myself started to write here in the first place. I just couldn't find what I wanted to read!

 

[BitterIchor]

Of course there are all kinds of lesbians. We're all different people with vastly different personalities and circumstances. Our sexuality is just one aspect of who we are.

But let's get something straight (no pun intended) here. The word "lesbian" has a commonly accepted meaning. It refers to a woman who is not sexually attracted to men. Which most likely means she doesn't have sex with men. Because why would she? If a woman enjoys having sex with men, then by definition she's probably not a lesbian. If she doesn't enjoy it and has sex with guys anyway, then...that's just unpleasant and a little sad. Not the best premise for an erotic story, if you ask me.

It's true that some of us don't figure out that we're gay until a little later in life and that can mean that some women who later identifies as lesbians have been with men earlier in life. There's nothing strange about that. You have to live to figure out who you are. But when those women are involved with guys, they don't identify as lesbian, do they? Some women probably also figure out that they're bisexual rather than lesbian, same thing there - nothing wrong with that. But that also means they're not lesbians.

I must seem a little harsh here, throwing my weight around and telling you guys who is a lesbian and not. But I'm really tired of people playing fast and loose with established terms and nomenclature. Being a lesbian is not a vague concept, a cultural thing or just being "into women". It's a term for women who are ONLY into women. Using our word and identity as a cheap gimmick for your story is offensive. If you want to feature non-straight women in your M/F story, bisexual women or "queer" (the new thing to call people who are just non-straight) women is more appropriate, in my opinion.

Oh, and I have written a couple of stories. They're pretty old and not the greatest stuff I've ever written, but still.

 

[Sammael Bard]

Threesomes and stories with multiple partners having sex are usually hitched off to Group Sex category, regardless of whether the women involved were discovering their bisexuality/homosexuality or not.

Like TxRad before me said, please report the said story with that little translucent 'Report' button below every page of a story on this site. State your reasons why a category shoukd be moved and the site moderator will act accordingly. It works and will certainly do better than venting on the forums.

 

[BreakTheBar]

I must seem a little harsh here, throwing my weight around and telling you guys who is a lesbian and not. But I'm really tired of people playing fast and loose with established terms and nomenclature. Being a lesbian is not a vague concept, a cultural thing or just being "into women". It's a term for women who are ONLY into women. Using our word and identity as a cheap gimmick for your story is offensive.

In all honesty, you don't sound harsh at all. You come across as self-important. Terms like 'our word' and 'I'm tired of people saying X' speak to the fact that you believe language, culture and society should bend to your ideal rather than form from the collective. The term 'lesbian' does not in fact mean 'a woman who is not sexually attracted to men.'

Lesbian, by etymology, refers to 'female homosexuality,' which in turn is defined as being 'sexually attracted to one's own sex.' The definition is inclusive as opposed to exclusive, it does not demand that a homosexual person is not attracted to the opposite sex, only that they are attracted to the same sex. So a Lesbian, by definition, may be attracted to men but must be attracted to women.

All of this is neither here nor there to the topic at hand however. My point follows those of PennLady, TxRad and Sammael Bard - if you feel like the story does not fit the category, make the report and maybe note it to the author for future reference. Being rude about other people's fantasies does not empower your own, and you cannot actually 'throw your weight around' because this is the internet and it's anonymous. There is no weight to be thrown unless your anonymous pseudonym has earned it.

 

[BitterIchor]

Lesbian, by etymology, refers to 'female homosexuality,' which in turn is defined as being 'sexually attracted to one's own sex.' The definition is inclusive as opposed to exclusive, it does not demand that a homosexual person is not attracted to the opposite sex, only that they are attracted to the same sex. So a Lesbian, by definition, may be attracted to men but must be attracted to women.

No. That may be one interpetation of the original meaning of the word, but language and ideas evolve with time. The modern and commonly held definition of "lesbian" means exclusively attracted to women. There are other terms for women who are attracted to both men and women, as well as other terms for people who are attracted to all kinds of gender identities and expressions.

At least, that is my experience from decades of being actively a part of and involved in the LGBTQ+ community. But I suppose you know better?

 

[sr71plt]

Hi.

I'm sick and tired of constantly stumbling over stories in the lesbian category that involve heterosexual sex. That is not cool.

Aren't you just looking for reasons to be angry? Can't you just take responsibility for your own reading and move on to other stories that are more in your wheelhouse? Zealotry seems to me to be your own problem to deal with. It's not arms and legs. Seems pretty petty to me in relation to what's going on in the greater world.

I think all of the gay (and nonexistent bi) categories could be treated better here, but I'm not going to let it rock my world or use it as a "it's all about me and my preferences" vent.

Lighten up. You'd be surprised how much more comfortable people would be with you.

 

[laffalot]

Okay, so you have an aversion to reading about man on woman sex while you are in the midst of some hot story in the lesbian category. It turns your motor off and irritates you. As an author of over 20 stories on this site, I often agonize over which category to place my story. Unless it is a short story with one sex scene, sometimes it's difficult to chose.

One of my recent dilemmas was what to do with a sequel to a well received "First time" story. The sequel had the same two characters as the first story, so it wasn't their first time anymore. I wound up posting in "Erotic couplings" and the story had very few views, no comments, and a much lower score, even though I pointed out at the beginning that the first story was in FT. It's a dilemma that others have faced as well.

If I were to write a story that begins with a young straight woman having sex with a man and being so bored during the action that afterward she decides to "see what all the fuss is about" and have a lesbian encounter, where should I post that story? If the formerly straight woman winds up having the time of her life during the lesbian encounter, then she may write off men completely and join the other side. Wouldn't a story like that go into the lesbian category, even though it begins with a vivid description of a man mindlessly pounding his cock into a woman? Now if you were to click on that story and see that it starts with a man fucking a woman, you would probably hit the back button and find something else, or post a scathing comment for the author about disrespecting the category, but you may actually be missing out on a truly epic story of lesbian love/sex because your initial reaction is one of anger and frustration.

I guess my point is, it's not always easy to classify a story into one of the categories listed. Slamming an author with a down vote or an angry comment is not going to change that. Perhaps there is a site out there that only allows stories that are 100 percent lesbian. If not, maybe you should create one. I'm sure there are other women like you who want to read a great lesbian story without worrying about stumbling onto the typical male fantasy.

 

[BreakTheBar]

At least, that is my experience from decades of being actively a part of and involved in the LGBTQ+ community. But I suppose you know better?

Actually, I was using a dictionary. Merriam-Webster to be specific.

"Full Definition of HOMOSEXUAL
1
: of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward another of the same sex
2
: of, relating to, or involving sexual intercourse between persons of the same sex
— ho·mo·sex·u·al·ly adverb"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homosexual

If you would like something more modern and community-based, try Wikipedia.

"A lesbian is a female homosexual: a female who experiences romantic love or sexual attraction to other females. The term lesbian is also used to express sexual identity or sexual behavior regardless of sexual orientation, or as an adjective to characterize or associate nouns with female homosexuality or same-sex attraction."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesbian


Again, this is inclusive as opposed to exclusive language. It also happens to be fairly definitive in it's authority and continuity. If the LGBTQ+ community uses the word Lesbian in a different way, all power to them. If members of that community expect the English-speaking world to blindly accept their new vernacular, that is where we will begin to have issues.

Like what you like, but don't try and wash others for their own preferences. Imagine if I dropped into every story in the Incest category that involved Parent/Child relations and said 'This is sexual abuse, 1 star.' How far do you think that would fly? Critique the writing, not the fantasy.

 

[lovecraft68]

Aren't you just looking for reasons to be angry? Can't you just take responsibility for your own reading and move on to other stories that are more in your wheelhouse?

Your point would be valid if lit was wide open with no categories, but we do have categories so I don't think your equally zealous 'take responsibility' post is any better than you think the OP's post is

When reading in lesbian, you should expect lesbian sex, as an author you should know the categories and post where your story would get max acceptance and minimum abuse.

Erotic couplings is the catch all, every thing goes category for stories featuring a variety of kinks, there is no need to shove straight sex in a gay category, or stick incest in group sex or non con anywhere but non con etc...

By using your analogy you're saying if you buy a bag of Popcorn and open it to find Cheese Puffs you shouldn't complain.

 

[DwellerDark]

I can understand why this type of thing would make you upset. It seems like there should be some kind of a distinction between lesbian stories that are actually written for lesbian females and the "lesbian" stories that are primarily written for heterosexual males (like most "lesbian" porn is). I mean, they probably don't want to clutter the site with so many categories, but I believe that, in this case, you have a right to be able to avoid stories that amount to little more than heterosexual male fantasies of seeing two women get it on. This is a valid concern and I am glad you chose to express it.

Also, I disagree with the term "militant" being used for a lesbian who expresses her concerns. It probably was not meant to demean or offend, but I feel like that term is often used unfairly.

 

[lovecraft68]

I can understand why this type of thing would make you upset. It seems like there should be some kind of a distinction between lesbian stories that are actually written for lesbian females and the "lesbian" stories that are primarily written for heterosexual males (like most "lesbian" porn is). I mean, they probably don't want to clutter the site with so many categories, but I believe that, in this case, you have a right to be able to avoid stories that amount to little more than heterosexual male fantasies of seeing two women get it on. This is a valid concern and I am glad you chose to express it.

Also, I disagree with the term "militant" being used for a lesbian who expresses her concerns. It probably was not meant to demean or offend, but I feel like that term is often used unfairly.

On lit "militant' is seen as any woman who does more than crawl around and say "thank you sir, please use me sir."

Erotica sites are not known as being friendly places for women with actual opinions and thoughts that don't involve pleasing men. And this and the other writing forums are probably the most accepting forums for women, go to some other boards and the OP would be receiving rape threats.

 

[sr71plt]

Your point would be valid if lit was wide open with no categories, but we do have categories so I don't think your equally zealous 'take responsibility' post is any better than you think the OP's post is

I wouldn't expect you to understand how varied and complex gay stories can be--and how quickly they could fit into several categories if non-gay readers--or this Web site, for that matter--let them. You'll find a whole variety of approaches in stories in the Lesbian (or GM) categories simply because only one category of each is provided here. That means that no one has the grounds to dictate what story about lesbian or gay male activity legitimately fits in those categories and what doesn't--simply on the complainer's list of preferences and tolerances.

 

[sr71plt]

On lit "militant' is seen as any woman who does more than crawl around and say "thank you sir, please use me sir."

Oh, pleeezze, a militant anybody on Lit. would be one wanting to fight and hate, being a "chip on your shoulder/in-your-face" zealot about their position, and not being reasonable about anyone else's perspective or what anyone else posts. That's a far cry from a strong person who isn't subservient.

You're being cartoonish (and militant).

Having the OP tell us what the "rules" are about what can be lesbian content in a story is like you telling us what the "rules" are about what can be BDSM in a story and what can't.

 

[BreakTheBar]

On lit "militant' is seen as any woman who does more than crawl around and say "thank you sir, please use me sir."

As the person who originally wrote the word in this case, I can speak to my intention.

I have seen similar comments from her on other stories, but the easiest to find was the one I remembered on my own.

"1/5

Standard score for shitty stories about guys fucking "lesbians"."
- BitterIchor, commenting on Pushing Buttons by BreaktheBar

Now overall a single person giving out downvotes really isn't that big a deal, and a negative comment is about five seconds of annoyance when it takes this kind of form. The reason I use the term 'militant' to describe the act comes down to the wording. 'Standard score' invokes the fact that the poster does this regularly, and 'about guys fucking "lesbians".' makes it fairly clear the poster is acting from a certain ideological outlook.

So I am left with an assumption of regular negative actions based on ideological belief. Backing up that belief by saying 'I'm a lesbian so I should know' when challenged is not a logical argument. Going back to my previous example, it would be the same as if I went into any Incest story relating to parent-child sexual relationships and posted '1/5, Standard score for shitty stories about parental abuse' and then represented myself by saying 'I'm a parent so I would know,' or even 'I'm a youth worker so I would know.'


https://www.literotica.com/s/pushing-buttons-2?page=5
- Link for reference to story. Note: Brings you to final page with the comments.
- Also note, the story is posted in First Time and not misrepresented as Lesbian, and also includes a note at the beginning about included sexual elements and does not list f/f.

 

[sr71plt]

So, "Pushing Buttons" wasn't even in the Lesbian category. It's in First Time. The OP went looking for something to offend her and zapped the story wholly on her pet issue. Sounds like those who folks are calling trolls in the Loving Wives category.

Over to you, LC.

 

[joelafayette]

......

 

[Bramblethorn]

Vasquez icon FTW!

Yes. It's a real problem in popular culture and media. Lesbians aren't taken seriously because they are constantly used as titillating objects for heterosexual people. Our sexuality is portrayed as overly malleable; we're not really gay, we just need the right dick to make us see the light, things like that. It's a part of a general condescending disrespect for women in general. We're portrayed as fickle and not really knowing what we want.

So yes, I take every opportunity to object to what I see as harmful and ignorant depictions of lesbians. I don't see a problem with that. It's a valid criticism. I do admit that I can lose my temper and get a little rude sometimes. Especially if I've stumbled over several of those kind of stories in a row (which I often do, unfortunately). That's not cool and I need to stop that.

I have mixed feelings about this.

I agree that there's a common tendency not to take women's preferences seriously, and way too many "lesbian" stories on Lit (and elsewhere) fall into that category. Some stories just define a woman as lesbian so that the guy can score more Manly Points when he finally overcomes her resistance, if that makes sense. I understand wanting to be able to find stories that treat lesbian relationships seriously without having to wade through a ton of male-gaze titillation pieces.

But, RL, sexuality can be complicated. There are a shitload of men out there who consider themselves "straight" even though they have sex with other men. The best sexuality research I've seen measures orientation on three axes - how do you identify, who are you attracted to, who do you actually have sex with? - and those measures often contradict one another. There are people who are in relationships that don't match their sexual orientation, because their partner went through gender transition after they got together. I know one lady who IDs as lesbian because "I have sex with men for fun, but I only fall in love with women", etc. etc. And sometimes women who ID as lesbian do end up in relationships with men (Erika Moen had a piece about this, IIRC - and I understand she STILL gets flak from people who feel she betrayed the sisterhood).

I'm interested in that kind of nuance. I like to read & write about people who have complex desires. But I feel like I'm walking on eggshells when I do that because some readers will misinterpret that "sexuality is complicated" as "women don't really know what they want so feel free to disrespect their preferences". If you have any thoughts on how better to navigate that I'd be interested to hear it.

FWIW, my most successful story here is about a lesbian who gets into a relationship with a woman who IDs as straight. Much of that came from my own experience of being in a similar situation. For me it wasn't so much as "wow, I'm so sexy I overcame their orientation" as "scary and insecure place to be", wondering if one day they were going to wake up and remember that I wasn't in the span of their orientation.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

What am I?

I completed a car repair school 50 years ago but I prolly cant repair a car today.

I earned an advanced class radio license 40 years ago and know squat about modern communications.

I completed a 4 year sheet metal apprenticeship and TECH school 39 years ago and cant do modern sheet metal work.

Many call me an alcoholic yet I haven't drank anything in almost 10 years. It makes me fat.

I suspect who we are comes and goes with life. I was a child for a while, not now. I was a Baptist for a long time, then became Episcopalian. I don't see me becoming Muslim or homosexual or a romance fan.

 

[rjordan]

Oh, and I have written a couple of stories. They're pretty old and not the greatest stuff I've ever written, but still.

I was going to suggest that you put all that feeling into stories, and make all those points through your characters. You're obviously literate and well-spoken. I'm sure it would find an audience of like-minded women, and maybe change the minds (somewhat) of the others.

So I'm happy to see you took that advice, and a couple years before I gave it!

Neither of your stories are in a category I normally read, but I'm interested in reading them after this thread.

rj

 

[rjordan]

I don't see me becoming Muslim or homosexual or a romance fan.

Maybe you're a lesbian trapped in a man's body. I've felt that way at times.

rj