What is Capitalism?

[Ishmael]

It's been interesting watching how this thread has developed, an discussion over Capitalism as applied to a nation where Capitalism has virtually ceased to exist.

Oh, vestiges of Capitalism still exist in some industries and local markets. But for the most part the governments, state, local, and federal, have been actively manipulating markets for the purposes of protectionism and/or social engineering. They call this activity intervention for the "public good" and/or "investments in our future."

We can all agree, liberal and conservative alike, that government does have a role with regards to public safety. Food, water, and to a limited extent housing, come to mind. And as an example, how does government micro-management of housing construction standards, driving construction costs and thereby prices ever higher, make sense while house trailers are still allowed?

What business does the government have picking industry sector winners and losers? And using the taxpayers dollar while doing so? The entire 'renewable energy' effort is a joke. It was a joke back in the 1970's when massive amounts of taxpayers dollars were spent on that effort. The difference today is that perfectly viable industries are being penalized out of business so as to make the joke more attractive.

There is nothing re. industry and development that the government can't, and won't, fuck up. And trample on the individual in doing so. Anyone remember the massive property seizure in New London CT some years ago? A case where a government body seized property form private individuals to transfer the property to another private party in the name of 'progress?' Property that remains an empty lot to this day with no tax revenue coming in and 100's of people thrown out of their homes at cut rate prices. Kelo v. City of New London That was a Supreme Court precedent folks.

Or just watch the fiasco that is developing re. the "high speed" rail between Los Angeles and San Francisco. If it ever comes to pass it will be a financial disaster. An Albatross around the neck of the taxpayer, both at the state and federal level. Meaning that the taxpayer in Platte NE. will forever be paying for the folly of the state of CA and the federal government.

Do we really need to bring up the Wall St. bailout?

How is it possible to condemn Capitalism in the United States when Capitalism hardly exists?

Ishmael

 

[Sean Renaud]

IT's possible to condemn it because it doesn't exist. It doesn't exist because as you rightfully state we can all, liberal and conservative alike agree that capitalism is simply a bad idea. After that we're quibbling details. Important details mind you but details.

 

[Ishmael]

IT's possible to condemn it because it doesn't exist. It doesn't exist because as you rightfully state we can all, liberal and conservative alike agree that capitalism is simply a bad idea. After that we're quibbling details. Important details mind you but details.

Well, no we can't agree. Do you work for CNBC? You sound like it.

Capitalism under the oversight of government based on the concept of "Blue Sky" principles has brought more prosperity to more people than any other economic system than any alternative so far devised. You can provide NO example to the contrary.

The failures that you, and others, have/are attributing to Capitalism are in reality the failures of government. A government that continually tells you/us that they're going to 'fix' the problem and the historical trajectory is that each and every one of their 'fixes' only brings with it another problem that they need to 'fix.' Have you failed to notice that the political class is perennially running for office to correct the problems that the political class has created?

So what's your alternative?

Ishmael

 

[Sean Renaud]

Well, no we can't agree. Do you work for CNBC? You sound like it.

Capitalism under the oversight of government based on the concept of "Blue Sky" principles has brought more prosperity to more people than any other economic system than any alternative so far devised. You can provide NO example to the contrary.

The failures that you, and others, have/are attributing to Capitalism are in reality the failures of government. A government that continually tells you/us that they're going to 'fix' the problem and the historical trajectory is that each and every one of their 'fixes' only brings with it another problem that they need to 'fix.' Have you failed to notice that the political class is perennially running for office to correct the problems that the political class has created?

So what's your alternative?

Ishmael

Capitalism under the oversight of anybody isn't capitalism. Not by the terms that most people actually mean. As for has brought more prosperity that would be interesting to actually break down. I suspect it's just something people say and expect everybody to be flustered.

What failures, specifically, are on the government. Since you've been reading up surely you know what you're talking about.

What have they fixed that made things worse. Not jsut created a new problem because there are always new problems. That's a stupid standard to use.

I would have greater government controls. But I don't need to have a solution to know when the house in on fire.

 

[Ishmael]

Capitalism under the oversight of anybody isn't capitalism. Not by the terms that most people actually mean. As for has brought more prosperity that would be interesting to actually break down. I suspect it's just something people say and expect everybody to be flustered.

What failures, specifically, are on the government. Since you've been reading up surely you know what you're talking about.

What have they fixed that made things worse. Not jsut created a new problem because there are always new problems. That's a stupid standard to use.

I would have greater government controls. But I don't need to have a solution to know when the house in on fire.

I guess the "Blue Sky Principle" qualifier flew over your head. Do you even know what that means?

Greater government controls over what? And how would these 'controls' express themselves? Taxes? Punitive measures? Both? A third way?

You speak in these generalities when the reality is that the devil's in the details. And whatever you may devise for one business doesn't quite work for another. Taken to it's ultimate end you will inevitably be required to micro-manage every business sector. A quite astonishing concept when our elected representatives can't even managed their constitutionally mandated own little bally-wick (ie. The District of Columbia).

Get a little specific.

Ishmael

 

[Sean Renaud]

Nope and I'm not in a googling mood at this moment.

At the moment raise the minimum wage and/or decrease the work week. I'm not crunching the numbers at the moment.

Reinstatment of Glass-Stegall

Then begin finding a method to break up companies that have grown to large.

Yes the devil is in the details, but we're not really discussing policies. There are plenty of standards that can be used broadly enough that only a handful of "legit" exceptions exist.

DC's problem is that it is ruled by Congress not that Congress is inept. (Congress is inept mind you but we have 50 states that all get to be ruled by their own legislature that they control and one district that is under the rule of the Congress because it's not a state. That's sort of a different issue all together.

 

[Ishmael]

Nope and I'm not in a googling mood at this moment.

At the moment raise the minimum wage and/or decrease the work week. I'm not crunching the numbers at the moment.

Reinstatment of Glass-Stegall

Then begin finding a method to break up companies that have grown to large.

Yes the devil is in the details, but we're not really discussing policies. There are plenty of standards that can be used broadly enough that only a handful of "legit" exceptions exist.

DC's problem is that it is ruled by Congress not that Congress is inept. (Congress is inept mind you but we have 50 states that all get to be ruled by their own legislature that they control and one district that is under the rule of the Congress because it's not a state. That's sort of a different issue all together.

Why should the minimum wage be raised?

Shorter work week? That's worked so WELL in France.

Glass-Steagall? My jury is still out on that one. I will agree that some restriction should be applied. If nothing more than if a bank wants to get involved with investment banking there should be a firewall between that business endeavor and their commercial/individual endeavor.

Back to generalities huh?

If congress cannot get their act together to micro-manage a mere 10 square miles of this nation why in the hell can you ever conceive that it is competent to micro-manage the remaining 3.806 million square miles?

Everybody Wants to Rule the World.

Ishmael

 

[BotanyBoy]

Then they shant be be regulating shit and you can go back to what you're doing and chillax.

Too big to fail however isn't about them being the same entity, it's about us being too dependant on too few people. Which is a natural outcome in capitalism.

It is but that's not the case we have in the USA.

What we have in the US is the natural outcome of using the government to destroy the competition and arbitrarily decide who get's to be rich and fuck everyone else into economic slavery.....and then convincing people that it's in their best interest to do so.

Both sides do it.....they might dress it up and sell it in different packages but both are out to take money from the 99% and put it into the hands of the 1%. Shit half the time they are in bed together.

Hey fuck mom and pop right? Wal Mart totally agrees.....Monsanto agrees..... so does Obama and Bush and both Mr. and Mrs Clinton etc etc.

Once you just accept we are ruled by a corporate oligarchy everything makes sense and you see just how full of shit pretty much everyone in politics is. The people who aren't? They get labeled 'unelectable' and 'crazy' .

 

[Sean Renaud]

The minimum wage should be raised because it no longer serves it's basic purpose. It was NOT an entry level wage at it's time of inception. It was the minimum that a man could be expected to live on and was based on factory workers at the time.

The shorter work week worked fine in America.

Since you (appear) to be making an effort to speak with me on the level let me pause here and make a clarification. Perhaps you already understood my train of throught perhaps not so don't take this as an insult. It's not. It's a thank you.

To me the minimum wage and the maximum work week are different solutions to the same problem. They artificially restrict the supply of labor or artificially increase the demand. Take your pick. Yes there are various pitfalls and both have their limits. IF this is something we disagree on I'd like to hear more.

Glass-Steagall is where I would go but you agree we need restrictions and a firewall. That's good enough for me unless we meet in the halls of Congress and must be more specific.

Yes back to generalities because we wandered into a place where that's all that effectively exist. Software companies are not farming companies. I accept this. Do we need to actually break out the charts of what Americans are employed in what fields? It sure as fuck seems that taking Christmas off works for so many people that we deal with those it doesn't work for separately. Same goes for a lot of stuff. Some things you do have to deal with on a case by case basis and there is nothing you can do about it.

Congress COULD get its act together in DC if they cared, or hell didn't intentionally fuck them. Please name the two senators and representiative from DC. Yeah. I thought you might have trouble. Now I want you to think why that might make them actually running DC a problem. We have 50 states and not one of them has the management issues of DC.

 

[Ishmael]

The minimum wage should be raised because it no longer serves it's basic purpose. It was NOT an entry level wage at it's time of inception. It was the minimum that a man could be expected to live on and was based on factory workers at the time.

The shorter work week worked fine in America.

Since you (appear) to be making an effort to speak with me on the level let me pause here and make a clarification. Perhaps you already understood my train of throught perhaps not so don't take this as an insult. It's not. It's a thank you.

To me the minimum wage and the maximum work week are different solutions to the same problem. They artificially restrict the supply of labor or artificially increase the demand. Take your pick. Yes there are various pitfalls and both have their limits. IF this is something we disagree on I'd like to hear more.

Glass-Steagall is where I would go but you agree we need restrictions and a firewall. That's good enough for me unless we meet in the halls of Congress and must be more specific.

Yes back to generalities because we wandered into a place where that's all that effectively exist. Software companies are not farming companies. I accept this. Do we need to actually break out the charts of what Americans are employed in what fields? It sure as fuck seems that taking Christmas off works for so many people that we deal with those it doesn't work for separately. Same goes for a lot of stuff. Some things you do have to deal with on a case by case basis and there is nothing you can do about it.

Congress COULD get its act together in DC if they cared, or hell didn't intentionally fuck them. Please name the two senators and representiative from DC. Yeah. I thought you might have trouble. Now I want you to think why that might make them actually running DC a problem. We have 50 states and not one of them has the management issues of DC.

You really know your history, don't ya? *cough*

I'm kinda like congress, I just don't care. Or rather I think it's nothing more than a political football used primarily by a bunch of leftist hypocrites. Telling the citizen worker that you really "care" about them while attempting to 'flood the zone' with a shit pot of uneducated, unskilled, unhealthy "immigrants" is the pinnacle of deceit.

Ishmael


Ishmael

 

[NeverEndingMe]

clearly Capitalism is what the obama doesn't understand.

then again, obama has never had a real job also its a very stupid person

 

[NeverEndingMe]

yes, we need to become like Greece and France!

fuck no.

go back and study - laws of supply and demand.

then, let me ask you this ... why do obama slaves (which I have to give some credit that they actually try to work) why do they strive to achieve minimum wage status?


why don't the obama slaves have higher goals in life?

The minimum wage should be raised because it no longer serves it's basic purpose. It was NOT an entry level wage at it's time of inception. It was the minimum that a man could be expected to live on and was based on factory workers at the time.

The shorter work week worked fine in America.

Since you (appear) to be making an effort to speak with me on the level let me pause here and make a clarification. Perhaps you already understood my train of throught perhaps not so don't take this as an insult. It's not. It's a thank you.

To me the minimum wage and the maximum work week are different solutions to the same problem. They artificially restrict the supply of labor or artificially increase the demand. Take your pick. Yes there are various pitfalls and both have their limits. IF this is something we disagree on I'd like to hear more.

Glass-Steagall is where I would go but you agree we need restrictions and a firewall. That's good enough for me unless we meet in the halls of Congress and must be more specific.

Yes back to generalities because we wandered into a place where that's all that effectively exist. Software companies are not farming companies. I accept this. Do we need to actually break out the charts of what Americans are employed in what fields? It sure as fuck seems that taking Christmas off works for so many people that we deal with those it doesn't work for separately. Same goes for a lot of stuff. Some things you do have to deal with on a case by case basis and there is nothing you can do about it.

Congress COULD get its act together in DC if they cared, or hell didn't intentionally fuck them. Please name the two senators and representiative from DC. Yeah. I thought you might have trouble. Now I want you to think why that might make them actually running DC a problem. We have 50 states and not one of them has the management issues of DC.

 

[NeverEndingMe]

of course you would want more "controls from asshats government"

reason being, you failed at being self employed and have no idea how to market or compete against others.

those that want more government, are failures in business

Capitalism under the oversight of anybody isn't capitalism. Not by the terms that most people actually mean. As for has brought more prosperity that would be interesting to actually break down. I suspect it's just something people say and expect everybody to be flustered.

What failures, specifically, are on the government. Since you've been reading up surely you know what you're talking about.

What have they fixed that made things worse. Not jsut created a new problem because there are always new problems. That's a stupid standard to use.

I would have greater government controls. But I don't need to have a solution to know when the house in on fire.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

It is but that's not the case we have in the USA.

What we have in the US is the natural outcome of using the government to destroy the competition and arbitrarily decide who get's to be rich and fuck everyone else into economic slavery.....and then convincing people that it's in their best interest to do so.

Both sides do it.....they might dress it up and sell it in different packages but both are out to take money from the 99% and put it into the hands of the 1%. Shit half the time they are in bed together.

Hey fuck mom and pop right? Wal Mart totally agrees.....Monsanto agrees..... so does Obama and Bush and both Mr. and Mrs Clinton etc etc.

Once you just accept we are ruled by a corporate oligarchy everything makes sense and you see just how full of shit pretty much everyone in politics is. The people who aren't? They get labeled 'unelectable' and 'crazy' .

Youre correct on all points.

Back in the 80s Steve Jobs and Bill Gates fucked most computer companies using the PC and Mac to do it. Then the cell phones fucked Ma Bell and GenTel. Then Gates and Jobs and a few others bribed Congress to change the rules to make America like the old USSR with respect to labor and commerce.

But they didn't figure out how to keep the jobless peons happy. And that's where we are. One quarter of America thrives and the rest eat shit. Its the same as France before its revolution.

 

[NeverEndingMe]

Youre correct on all points.

Back in the 80s Steve Jobs and Bill Gates fucked most computer companies using the PC and Mac to do it. Then the cell phones fucked Ma Bell and GenTel. Then Gates and Jobs and a few others bribed Congress to change the rules to make America like the old USSR with respect to labor and commerce.

But they didn't figure out how to keep the jobless peons happy. And that's where we are. One quarter of America thrives and the rest eat shit. Its the same as France before its revolution.

and we are better off for having Gates and Jobs.

point it, those that stand still ie "MaBell's" get left behind.

grow and change. fear tomorrow and do something or become the next great Packard Bell ...

sit on your ass, and die

those that busted ass at Microsoft, Apple ... don't need a fucking retard pension as they kicked ass and have a fat bank account/401k.

pension funds, are for the lazy

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

It's been interesting watching how this thread has developed, an discussion over Capitalism as applied to a nation where Capitalism has virtually ceased to exist.

Oh, vestiges of Capitalism still exist in some industries and local markets. But for the most part the governments, state, local, and federal, have been actively manipulating markets for the purposes of protectionism and/or social engineering. They call this activity intervention for the "public good" and/or "investments in our future."

We can all agree, liberal and conservative alike, that government does have a role with regards to public safety. Food, water, and to a limited extent housing, come to mind. And as an example, how does government micro-management of housing construction standards, driving construction costs and thereby prices ever higher, make sense while house trailers are still allowed?

What business does the government have picking industry sector winners and losers? And using the taxpayers dollar while doing so? The entire 'renewable energy' effort is a joke. It was a joke back in the 1970's when massive amounts of taxpayers dollars were spent on that effort. The difference today is that perfectly viable industries are being penalized out of business so as to make the joke more attractive.

There is nothing re. industry and development that the government can't, and won't, fuck up. And trample on the individual in doing so. Anyone remember the massive property seizure in New London CT some years ago? A case where a government body seized property form private individuals to transfer the property to another private party in the name of 'progress?' Property that remains an empty lot to this day with no tax revenue coming in and 100's of people thrown out of their homes at cut rate prices. Kelo v. City of New London That was a Supreme Court precedent folks.

Or just watch the fiasco that is developing re. the "high speed" rail between Los Angeles and San Francisco. If it ever comes to pass it will be a financial disaster. An Albatross around the neck of the taxpayer, both at the state and federal level. Meaning that the taxpayer in Platte NE. will forever be paying for the folly of the state of CA and the federal government.

Do we really need to bring up the Wall St. bailout?

How is it possible to condemn Capitalism in the United States when Capitalism hardly exists?

Ishmael

Peru and free markets: https://mises.org/library/world-bank-threatens-free-markets-peru

 

[Aella_]

These :

It's been interesting watching how this thread has developed an discussion over Capitalism as applied to a nation where Capitalism has virtually ceased to exist.

Oh, vestiges of Capitalism still exist in some industries and local markets. But for the most part the governments, state, local, and federal, have been actively manipulating markets for the purposes of protectionism and/or social engineering. They call this activity intervention for the "public good" and/or "investments in our future."

We can all agree, liberal and conservative alike, that government does have a role with regards to public safety. Food, water, and to a limited extent housing, come to mind.
What business does the government have picking industry sector winners and losers? And using the taxpayers dollar while doing so?

How is it possible to condemn Capitalism in the United States when Capitalism hardly exists?

Only in the beginning...Once the rich have established themselves with the help of their government goons they rarely oppose that which keeps the villagers at bay.
What we have in the US is the natural outcome of using the government to destroy the competition and arbitrarily decide who get's to be rich and fuck everyone else into economic slavery.....and then convincing people that it's in their best interest to do so.

Both sides do it.....they might dress it up and sell it in different packages but both are out to take money from the 99% and put it into the hands of the 1%. Shit half the time they are in bed together.
Hey fuck mom and pop right? Wal Mart totally agrees.....Monsanto agrees..... so does Obama and Bush and both Mr. and Mrs Clinton etc etc.

Once you just accept we are ruled by a corporate oligarchy everything makes sense and you see just how full of shit pretty much everyone in politics is. The people who aren't? They get labeled 'unelectable' and 'crazy' .

 

[BotanyBoy]

Peru and free markets: https://mises.org/library/world-bank-threatens-free-markets-peru

Peru is making too much money.....look how much tax the banks aren't getting!!

 

[Sean Renaud]

You really know your history, don't ya? *cough*

I'm kinda like congress, I just don't care. Or rather I think it's nothing more than a political football used primarily by a bunch of leftist hypocrites. Telling the citizen worker that you really "care" about them while attempting to 'flood the zone' with a shit pot of uneducated, unskilled, unhealthy "immigrants" is the pinnacle of deceit.

Ishmael


Ishmael

Since this is just you saying I'm right but you're a twat congrats.

yes, we need to become like Greece and France!

fuck no.

go back and study - laws of supply and demand.

then, let me ask you this ... why do obama slaves (which I have to give some credit that they actually try to work) why do they strive to achieve minimum wage status?


why don't the obama slaves have higher goals in life?

Because it's all we can expect from you.

 

[Ishmael]

Since this is just you saying I'm right but you're a twat congrats.

Exactly what is it you're right about?

Ishmael

 

[Sean Renaud]

everything.

 

[Ishmael]

everything.

No need for you to post anymore then.

Ishmael

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

*chuckle*

 

[Ishmael]

*chuckle*

Stealing my schtick?

Ishmael

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

imitation = sincere flattery