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[Gorza]

A related article - 6 Things Every Man Who Dates Trans Women Needs to Know.

Thank you for posting this. Reading about a trans* reality of romance is so heartening. Particularly here on Lit, there is all this 'shemale' fetish stuff. Some might feel that it's flattery. One guy said that it's just the same as a blonde fetish. Yeah, no. It's not outright transphobia, but it's still objectification.

I've got a great friend who's trans*. I've wanted to write a short story for Lit, an anonymous what-might-have-been, an overcoming-transphobia romance. Being cis and seeing all the kink-fantasy stuff on Lit, I'm concerned about writing something that's real and respectable, without losing the love and joy. This article is perhaps the inspiration I need.

PS. I love this thread.

 

[stickygirl]

Thank you Gorza. We didn't get properly introduced on Naoko's thread so *curtsey* pleased to meet you

It's true that fetish turns people into two dimensional objects, whether it's a projection by other people or invited by the individual. I used to become angry when I read such posts on Lit - because it reinforced the fetish image of transgender women. But surely fetish is supposed to be two dimensional: it's purpose is to remove the checks of reality to let us exist in an imaginary environment?

The problems occur when people fail to distinguish fantasy and reality. We are such rare creatures that often the only reference people have is pornography, media gossip and bad jokes. People feel awkward when they realise they're talking to a trans woman - I've seen the simlar reactions when regular people meet someone who is disabled. Hopefully the current media coverage will help normalise us.

We don't define ourselves by our genitalia - everyone else does! We worry about jobs, about getting home safely, about normal things - just like everyone else. Why is it that everyone thinks our genitals are an acceptable topic of casual conversation? Because they're failing to make the distinction from fetish. It becomes a barrier to us being able to live normal lives and that makes me angry.

 

[Gorza]

Thank you Gorza. We didn't get properly introduced on Naoko's thread so *curtsey* pleased to meet you

*Bow* *elaborate flourish* "M'lady!"

It's true that fetish turns people into two dimensional objects, whether it's a projection by other people or invited by the individual. I used to become angry when I read such posts on Lit - because it reinforced the fetish image of transgender women. But surely fetish is supposed to be two dimensional: it's purpose is to remove the checks of reality to let us exist in an imaginary environment?

Not so much TLR: with this thread it was Too Long, Didn't do other important stuff. What engaged me is your 'I used to become angry' approach: charming enough that you could have been more political here or there.

I sometimes wonder what the real world is like when we come up out of fantasy worlds, how it has changed. So many fantasies -- so many of my fantasies -- don't make IRL better. Like drinking, some fantasies are tasty escapes that help us blow off steam and do fun things with our neurons, but it can be addictive, dark and trash one's attempt at living a satisfying life. Among straight cis men -- like me -- the 'shemale' kink is a fairly extreme fetish, like a macho chilli-eating contest. I admit that this stuff can turn me on, but it is all about the guy heroically pushing the boundaries of his sexuality, and not about her at all. Deep down, it is about experimenting with playing with gayness under the subterfuge of transgender: men using another person's struggle for gender identity as an alibi for sexual 'transgression'.

The problems occur when people fail to distinguish fantasy and reality. We are such rare creatures that often the only reference people have is pornography, media gossip and bad jokes. People feel awkward when they realise they're talking to a trans woman - I've seen the simlar reactions when regular people meet someone who is disabled. Hopefully the current media coverage will help normalise us.

Fuck, yes! Where are the fantasies that make the world a better place? They don't have to be all sweetness and light, but they do have to cherish people on their own terms. I don't want to leave that question all empty and rhetorical. What kind of fantasies enhance, embrace and empower trans* people?

We don't define ourselves by our genitalia - everyone else does! We worry about jobs, about getting home safely, about normal things - just like everyone else. Why is it that everyone thinks our genitals are an acceptable topic of casual conversation? Because they're failing to make the distinction from fetish. It becomes a barrier to us being able to live normal lives and that makes me angry.

My friend identifies openly as a lesbian and a transwoman. The number of times she has got "So you're really straight, 'coz you're really a man", or other stupid comments, is incalculable.

 

[stickygirl]

I've wanted to write a short story for Lit, an anonymous what-might-have-been, an overcoming-transphobia romance. Being cis and seeing all the kink-fantasy stuff on Lit, I'm concerned about writing something that's real and respectable, without losing the love and joy.

Hiding my light under a bushel...


https://www.literotica.com/s/letter-to-max-my-online-friend

 

[Gorza]

Hiding my light under a bushel...


https://www.literotica.com/s/letter-to-max-my-online-friend

On my to-read list!

I read this article on Vice today: How Trans Men Deal with Their Shifting Sexuality While Taking Testosterone. It's about FtM experiences of changing sexuality during transition, usually from being interested in women to liking men. At first, the article suggests that testosterone injections is the cause of this change, but, as it goes on, there's some interesting psychology. It suggests that, for some transmen, loving men pre-transition makes them feel like a woman, the identity they want to leave behind.

This scenario could be the basis for an interesting story, albeit a difficult, emotionally complex one.

Any thoughts?

 

[stickygirl]

On my to-read list!

I read this article on Vice today: How Trans Men Deal with Their Shifting Sexuality While Taking Testosterone. It's about FtM experiences of changing sexuality during transition, usually from being interested in women to liking men. At first, the article suggests that testosterone injections is the cause of this change, but, as it goes on, there's some interesting psychology. It suggests that, for some transmen, loving men pre-transition makes them feel like a woman, the identity they want to leave behind.

This scenario could be the basis for an interesting story, albeit a difficult, emotionally complex one.

Any thoughts?

Well, if you were to write something, you'd need to sort out the labels, because that article had me very confused!
I've always found it puzzling that trans men call themselves lesbian at all: perhaps they are being more honest and less frightened of labels than trans women? It's over-simplistic to assume that trans men are a mirror reflection of trans women and in many ways we are more different from each other than we are from cis gender folk. Perhaps we are forced into that position, because underneath we have parallel goals? There's a continual feedback from our patriarchal society ( yes it is patriarchal - get over it ) which undermines the status of trans men and threatens trans women - that's a powerful influence that infuses your psyche at every level. It's a significant component of dysphoria, which is itself a Scotch broth of conflict.

What isn't made clear in the article is if their levels of T were accompanied by the gender confirming physical markers that lead to acceptance. Certainly T affects sex drive and I am certain both groups scrutinise our sexual attraction in an internalised way, but the feedback is a major factor in that. If people in the street or daily life accept you in your correct gender, then of course it boosts your confidence and that gives you the breathing space to explore other aspects of your sexuality.

I think there is a pattern in both groups that we initially use sex as a means of confirmation and then later unravel our feelings to find a less insecure balance in terms of our sexuality: less denial, more acceptance.

"I think it just comes down to accepting who you are and that allows you to be a lot more open and accepting of other people."

Quite how you'll fit all that into a Lit story... good luck!!

 

[Bramblethorn]

I've always found it puzzling that trans men call themselves lesbian at all: perhaps they are being more honest and less frightened of labels than trans women?

It does seem to be quite a common path, though, shifting identification from "butch lesbian" to "trans man". I suspect part of the issue is that we're trying to assign neat little labels and separate out parts of the psyche that are actually interacting with one another in very complex ways.

 

[haurni]

I've heard that changing hormone levels changes emotionality and sensory perception (e.g. sense of smell, etc.). I grant that it could also shift sexual orientation somewhat. Even context can shift one's sexual expression, and the context in which trans people live certainly changes over the course of their lives. Even some supposedly straight crossdressers find themselves becoming more interested in men. But as far as I'm aware there are a lot of trans people whose basic attractions don't change. Human sexuality is complicated and one size does not fit all.

 

[stickygirl]

It does seem to be quite a common path, though, shifting identification from "butch lesbian" to "trans man". I suspect part of the issue is that we're trying to assign neat little labels and separate out parts of the psyche that are actually interacting with one another in very complex ways.

Does it though? Your experience is broader than mine, but some butch lesbians are defiantly anti-men - a conflict in itself for them if they're considering transitioning. Throw into that that some lesbians, butch or otherwise, are vehemently anti trans women.
No size fits all

I've heard that changing hormone levels changes emotionality and sensory perception (e.g. sense of smell, etc.). I grant that it could also shift sexual orientation somewhat. Even context can shift one's sexual expression, and the context in which trans people live certainly changes over the course of their lives. Even some supposedly straight crossdressers find themselves becoming more interested in men. But as far as I'm aware there are a lot of trans people whose basic attractions don't change. Human sexuality is complicated and one size does not fit all.

Yep - I can smell a man downwind from 500m
Context; experience; pressures are have a role to play in modifying our sexual tastes - some men become intoxicated with the idea of shemales

 

[Messier82]

I've heard that changing hormone levels changes emotionality and sensory perception (e.g. sense of smell, etc.).

I'd say that was a given: anyone who's lived with a pregnant woman will verify that changes in smell and taste are commonplace and the emotional changes which accompany pregnancy are common enough knowledge.

It's also fascinating the degree to which the internal organs are moved to accommodate the growing child.

 

[Messier82]

A related article - 6 Things Every Man Who Dates Trans Women Needs to Know.

Having read this article, I can't help but think it should be balanced by the views & experiences of some of the ex-boyfriends. I think all relationships (ie cis and trans) have the potential for the kind of difficulties alluded to by the writer of the article, it's just that the reasons for the difficulties may be less obviously apparent.

 

[stickygirl]

Having read this article, I can't help but think it should be balanced by the views & experiences of some of the ex-boyfriends. I think all relationships (ie cis and trans) have the potential for the kind of difficulties alluded to by the writer of the article, it's just that the reasons for the difficulties may be less obviously apparent.

That's true - I'd love to read something about that.
Please keep your eyes open
mission

 

[Bramblethorn]

Does it though?

I don't know numbers but I've read several accounts following this pattern e.g.:
http://www.pridesource.com/article.html?article=67221
http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wes...e/news-story/eb2be39f1f0b6a67d979a26dabe5efd3

And an ex of mine (the one we've talked about) followed the same path, although I think they're currently at "still working out whether trans man or nonbinary".

Your experience is broader than mine, but some butch lesbians are defiantly anti-men - a conflict in itself for them if they're considering transitioning. Throw into that that some lesbians, butch or otherwise, are vehemently anti trans women.
No size fits all

Yes indeed there are. I haven't heard of people in those categories transitioning. Of course, it may be that the ones who do have decided to break with their past rather than try to reconcile it.

 

[stickygirl]

Good enough and I'll make a mental note of those - they look good together huh?
...but where did the word orchardist come from

 

[Gorza]

I don't know numbers but I've read several accounts following this pattern e.g.:
http://www.pridesource.com/article.html?article=67221
http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wes...e/news-story/eb2be39f1f0b6a67d979a26dabe5efd3

And an ex of mine (the one we've talked about) followed the same path, although I think they're currently at "still working out whether trans man or nonbinary".

Thanks for sharing more articles. There seems to be a significant amount of anecdotal material out there.

Someone working out whether they're a trans man or nonbinary, does show that our gender and sexuality can only exist in a social context. That context so often disempowers us, forcing us to declare the boxes we are in.

Well, if you were to write something, you'd need to sort out the labels, because that article had me very confused!

No, I'm not even thinking of writing it. I know I don't have it in me to write something like this well. I'm putting it out there, and would support anyone who could take this kind of experience and turn it into a good narrative.

I've always found it puzzling that trans men call themselves lesbian at all: perhaps they are being more honest and less frightened of labels than trans women? It's over-simplistic to assume that trans men are a mirror reflection of trans women and in many ways we are more different from each other than we are from cis gender folk. Perhaps we are forced into that position, because underneath we have parallel goals? There's a continual feedback from our patriarchal society ( yes it is patriarchal - get over it ) which undermines the status of trans men and threatens trans women - that's a powerful influence that infuses your psyche at every level. It's a significant component of dysphoria, which is itself a Scotch broth of conflict.

Yeah, I've noticed that. Perhaps it's not so much self-identification as a lesbian, as feeling more comfortable exploring gender and sexuality in that context. I had never thought about the differences in MtF and FtM experiences hardly being held together by a shared struggle for gender identity.

What isn't made clear in the article is if their levels of T were accompanied by the gender confirming physical markers that lead to acceptance. Certainly T affects sex drive and I am certain both groups scrutinise our sexual attraction in an internalised way, but the feedback is a major factor in that. If people in the street or daily life accept you in your correct gender, then of course it boosts your confidence and that gives you the breathing space to explore other aspects of your sexuality.

Beyond the testosterone stuff, I found the psychology more compelling: that a trans man before transition would find sexual attraction to and activity with men make them feel like the woman they know they're not. In that light, a changing body, an increased sex drive and that affirming feedback could make it possible to explore a sexuality that would otherwise be impossible.

I think there is a pattern in both groups that we initially use sex as a means of confirmation and then later unravel our feelings to find a less insecure balance in terms of our sexuality: less denial, more acceptance.

This is a universal: having sex as evidence that we're beautiful and lovable. And many grow to become effectively asexual, because they move beyond the awkward and often ineffective need to affirm one's self with sex.

 

[4yourpleasureiam]

I have not read the article being discussed but going to throw my 2 cents in anyway.

The only criteria I have ever had in dating or friendship was to like the person. If you like them and they like you then you are blessed.

 

[stickygirl]

https://41.media.tumblr.com/629e86cf3966578e392b83460e472b14/tumblr_nu88a45AmA1t1brz9o1_540.png
https://40.media.tumblr.com/7c127f20041e9de9ffc5ea980966a680/tumblr_nu88a45AmA1t1brz9o2_540.png

Tell me about it

 

[Gorza]

Great! That's getting shares.

 

[stickygirl]

Phew - great discussion in a UK govt equalities enquiry. Skip past the introductions to the discussion which is really good.
Focuses on non-binary people who are not part of 'a process' under the UK health service facing discrimination, because the law is not explicit enough.

http://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/4e7f52c6-1357-43f8-98c0-af160b156b40

Also the Irish guy is quite hot because I find smart people hot

 

[haurni]

Your thoughts on this, SG?

"Trans people in the media have surely made significant inroads in this regard recently, but not so much that we can be certain that those who are ignorant of or actively antagonistic toward trans people won’t use Cox’s performance in [the remake of 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'] as evidence of her true gender and assume that she, like Frank, is actually a cross-dressing man, a transvestite, rather than accurately as an actress, a woman who happens to be trans, who is portraying that role."​

I'm inclined to agree with the writer that many people will take this as 'evidence' that trans women are simply crossdressers and therefore men.

 

[stickygirl]

Thanks H

Does Eddie Redmayne regard himself as trans, having played the role of a trans woman in The Danish Girl?
Is Chiwetel Ejiofor considered a transvestite having played the lead in Kinky Boots?
What about Elle Fanning in About Ray? Is she a trans man?

If people haven't got their head round acting, or that Laverne Cox is a woman, then they never will. I understand perfectly the sentiments of he author of that article, but frankly Laverne isn't doing it as a representative of anything apart from her bank balance and why not? Women don't have a long shelf life when it comes to acting.

Having said that, I think she's the wrong choice for the role of Frankenfurter: that role is definitely intended for a man.

ETA
As you may have gathered, I've sort of lost patience with all the hang-wringing going on when one or other public transgender figure burps or scratches their bum. We already face examination and scrutiny every day of our lives, both as women and trans women. Now we have to judge our glamorous peers because their actions may or may not affect public opinion through the media, which at some point will affect the way a trans person is judged in their everyday life.

But you're right - an opinion is demanded. This is not some cis-gender woman media star going through a fifth divorce and struggling with a drugs problem: it doesn't reflect on other women. So why should the reputation of Laverne Cox mean anything to me?

Because it does.

That's what pisses me off.
I don't personally know Laverne, or Caitlyn, or Laura Jane Grace or Lana.
I don't know if they are trustworthy ambassadors of the trans world, but people will judge me based on their actions.

I'm sure trans folk aren't the only group who fnd themselves in a similar situation… maybe sports icons who behave badly *shrugs*

 

[stickygirl]

I've got a please sign, especially if you're from the UK
I'm really shocked by this - magistrates are trying to send a woman to a men's prison

https://www.change.org/p/bath-magistrates-prison-govenor-of-hm-prison-bristol-british-judicial-system-stop-transgender-woman-tara-hudson-from-being-sent-to-an-all-male-prison-in-bristol?recruiter=29161782&utm_source=share_for_starters&utm_medium=copyLink

 

[Messier82]

Saw and signed this petition this morning.

However, as someone who has experienced a sojourn "At Her Majesty's Pleasure" (it was 20 years ago, no cause for concern), here are some relevant bits of info:

1) Being sentenced to three months means she'll serve half - ie six weeks, therefore it's unlikely the petition will be able to move fast enough to achieve anything.

2) She'll have the option to go on Rule 45 (formerly Rule 43), this enables the segregation of vulnerable prisoners from the other prisoners for their own safety. Sure, she'll be on the same wing as sex offenders but it's a safer option. She'll have to suffer a lot of verbal abuse, but that can apply to just about any inmate. At night-time prisons are very, very noisy, lots of shouting out of the windows all night long, she'll want earplugs.

3) Notions about prisoners being raped are probably true for US prisons but not in the UK. Convicted criminals are still basically ordinary people, the media love to demonize them but the reality is really quite banal.
In 18 months inside I only heard about one case where I was convinced this had actually happened and both the victim and the perpetrator were very extreme characters (the victim was an arsonist who had nearly killed an OAP by setting fire to her home and the perpetrator really ought to have been in a secure psychiatric facility).

4) Prison Officers are an overworked bunch, they have a well-defined sense of 'black humour' which means at times they may appear unsympathetic, but by and large they are not an uncaring bunch and none of them will want anything bad to happen 'on their watch'.

5) Certainly this girl will need to have a 'thick skin' for a few weeks but it's not the end of the world and there's no reason anything untoward need happen during her 'porridge time.'

 

[stickygirl]

Thanks for the insight Messier
*sigh*
yea, I've read a report today of a meeting on the back of a UK Parliamentary Transgender Equality Inquiry into this girl's imprisonment - and yes she has been sent to that male prison. Basically the civil servants said that a petition will do nothing and suggested pressing the UN and Human Rights route to try to make change.
The irony is that this enquiry has been called to address exactly this kind of issue but it's still at the taking-evidence stage.
A girl friend suggested having a pre-op trans woman in a women's prison with shared facilities etc might mean the trans woman would have opportunity to rape another prisoner... like duh. I thought this friend had more understanding, but apparently not. She accepts me but sees transgender people as hairy blokes in frocks out to invade women's spaces. Some friend huh? "Oh but you're not like that" ffs. Just when you think things are going ok, a friend will scythe your legs off with their transphobia.

 

[Messier82]

Additionally, the Prison Governors will be all over her case as it has the hallmarks of a being a career-defining issue for anyone connected with it, and PGs are often politically-savvy graduates with their eye firmly fixed on their next promotion.

Sorry to hear the POV of your friend, it's odd the way people maintain general prejudices whilst making exceptions for those close to them. Nowt funnier than folk eh?