Liz
- Thread starter SuperVC10
- Start date
sr71plt
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Thank you sr71, I forgot to include the link to Part 1.
Here is the link to Part 2.
https://www.literotica.com/s/liz-pt-02
CWatson
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Thanks for the link, SR. =)
Okay, Mr. SuperVC. The first thing I noticed was that you don't use a lot of commas. In fact, we only have to go five paragraphs in to find a paragraph that doesn't have any commas. The result is a great deal of run-on sentences. This is not necessarily a bad thing, mind you; run-ons, though not strictly correct according to the rules of grammar, have slipped into acceptable usage under the auspices of style. However the reason they're not strictly correct is that run-on sentences impair understanding in the same way that not having traffic lights impairs people's ability to drive their cars without injury sometimes death making traffic lights less a "luxury" and more a necessity. (See what I did there? That was a run-on sentence.) The same is true of commas, and indeed of all punctuation. You can communicate without them, but it's much easier with them.
My second problem with the story was its first 12 paragraphs. They are, when you get down to it, not necessary. If the story had started with the actual gallery opening, nobody would have noticed the difference. Sir Lord Baron Martin Taylor or whoever doesn't actually re-appear in the story as of the end of the first chapter (or, for that matter, the second), so, why did you include him? To set the tone? Why? Unless Perry is going to become some sort of deranged stalker towards Ms. Beresford, Taylor sets no useful precedent. And, at the time he becomes important to the story, you could easily drop him in using a flashback. Or, for that matter, Perry could tell Elizabeth a funny story about painting a portrait of an eccentric man. This would accomplish two things in one: the date seems successful and you strap Chekhov's Gun to the wall.
Finally, there's something about your dialogue that just doesn't sit right with me. I'm not sure why, so I've been delaying mentioning it at all. I feel like it isn't reaching the page quite the way you heard it in your head. Part of it might be the commas: when you exclude them, The Reader's assumption is that the character is just talkingveryfastwithoutanypauses. And, since punctuation was invented by Greek playwrights to indicate when the actor should pause, and for how long, The Reader's interpretation happens to be correct. We then need to ask why the dialogue is that way in the first place. The possibilities are that 1) this story is secretly a Gilmore Girls homage, or 2) you wrote the dialogue wrong. And, no offense intended, I'm assuming it's the second, because if this were a Gilmore Girls homage we'd have a lot more women in the story.
So how do we fix this? Well, unfortunately, there's not a handy guide to "getting what's in my head onto the page without losing much in translation"; it's a skill that each writer needs to develop individually. Every person has a unique way of translating spoken words into written, and vice versa; it comes packaged with us at birth, and operates at a level below conscious thought. What you need to do, as a writer, is bring it into conscious thought.
To explore the first, I recommend you read good theatre. Plays are driven solely by dialogue, and for the good ones, the words just leap off the page; you find yourself reciting the play aloud whether or not you intended to. Death of a Salesman is a good one for this, as is Inherit The Wind and Master Harold... and the boys. To explore the second, transcribe dialogue, word for word--nay, sound for sound Stand-up comedians can be the best for this because they just have to get up and talk for 90 minutes, so their verbal idiosyncrasies become a part of the delivery. George Carlin's "Ice Box Man" routine, Bill Hicks' "Non-Smokers" bit, Eddie Izzard's thoughts on "Empires"... If you transcribe these properly, there will be weird spellings, new sounds, odd vowel combinations and punctuation, all over the fucking place. You'll also--at least I hope--laugh a little. =)
I'm excited to see where this story goes. And keep writing! All this stuff is long-term development, things you'll gain a knack for gradually; you don't have to nail it down before you post the next chapter. And I hope you'll post it soon. Your storytelling ability oustrips your writing ability; you know what you want to say but are having trouble saying it. That's a good problem to have--especially since writing ability can be learned and taught, but storytelling cannot. You've got what it takes; now you just need to hone it.
Okay, Mr. SuperVC. The first thing I noticed was that you don't use a lot of commas. In fact, we only have to go five paragraphs in to find a paragraph that doesn't have any commas. The result is a great deal of run-on sentences. This is not necessarily a bad thing, mind you; run-ons, though not strictly correct according to the rules of grammar, have slipped into acceptable usage under the auspices of style. However the reason they're not strictly correct is that run-on sentences impair understanding in the same way that not having traffic lights impairs people's ability to drive their cars without injury sometimes death making traffic lights less a "luxury" and more a necessity. (See what I did there? That was a run-on sentence.) The same is true of commas, and indeed of all punctuation. You can communicate without them, but it's much easier with them.
My second problem with the story was its first 12 paragraphs. They are, when you get down to it, not necessary. If the story had started with the actual gallery opening, nobody would have noticed the difference. Sir Lord Baron Martin Taylor or whoever doesn't actually re-appear in the story as of the end of the first chapter (or, for that matter, the second), so, why did you include him? To set the tone? Why? Unless Perry is going to become some sort of deranged stalker towards Ms. Beresford, Taylor sets no useful precedent. And, at the time he becomes important to the story, you could easily drop him in using a flashback. Or, for that matter, Perry could tell Elizabeth a funny story about painting a portrait of an eccentric man. This would accomplish two things in one: the date seems successful and you strap Chekhov's Gun to the wall.
Finally, there's something about your dialogue that just doesn't sit right with me. I'm not sure why, so I've been delaying mentioning it at all. I feel like it isn't reaching the page quite the way you heard it in your head. Part of it might be the commas: when you exclude them, The Reader's assumption is that the character is just talkingveryfastwithoutanypauses. And, since punctuation was invented by Greek playwrights to indicate when the actor should pause, and for how long, The Reader's interpretation happens to be correct. We then need to ask why the dialogue is that way in the first place. The possibilities are that 1) this story is secretly a Gilmore Girls homage, or 2) you wrote the dialogue wrong. And, no offense intended, I'm assuming it's the second, because if this were a Gilmore Girls homage we'd have a lot more women in the story.
So how do we fix this? Well, unfortunately, there's not a handy guide to "getting what's in my head onto the page without losing much in translation"; it's a skill that each writer needs to develop individually. Every person has a unique way of translating spoken words into written, and vice versa; it comes packaged with us at birth, and operates at a level below conscious thought. What you need to do, as a writer, is bring it into conscious thought.
To explore the first, I recommend you read good theatre. Plays are driven solely by dialogue, and for the good ones, the words just leap off the page; you find yourself reciting the play aloud whether or not you intended to. Death of a Salesman is a good one for this, as is Inherit The Wind and Master Harold... and the boys. To explore the second, transcribe dialogue, word for word--nay, sound for sound Stand-up comedians can be the best for this because they just have to get up and talk for 90 minutes, so their verbal idiosyncrasies become a part of the delivery. George Carlin's "Ice Box Man" routine, Bill Hicks' "Non-Smokers" bit, Eddie Izzard's thoughts on "Empires"... If you transcribe these properly, there will be weird spellings, new sounds, odd vowel combinations and punctuation, all over the fucking place. You'll also--at least I hope--laugh a little. =)
I'm excited to see where this story goes. And keep writing! All this stuff is long-term development, things you'll gain a knack for gradually; you don't have to nail it down before you post the next chapter. And I hope you'll post it soon. Your storytelling ability oustrips your writing ability; you know what you want to say but are having trouble saying it. That's a good problem to have--especially since writing ability can be learned and taught, but storytelling cannot. You've got what it takes; now you just need to hone it.
CWatson thanks for your input. I've always tried to be as realistic as possible with my dialogue but as you've noticed punctuation is a bit tricky for me. I would like to write dialogue as one would hear in a normal conversation. For example "We're goin' to the beach," or "She's somethin' else ain't she?"
The problem I have is whether to write the dialogue with the last letter cut off or not (or write words like "ain't").
I'd love to try and write dialogue as I hear it in my head, complete with pauses much like you may find in a script. The periods denote a pause.
For example, "You'll do it,........oh you'll do it,"
The problem is whether this writing format is acceptable or not.
I'm also trying to be as "English" as possible when writing Elizabeth's dialogue. I'm keenly aware that a Brit speaks differently than I do as an American. I'm trying to capture that. One way I've learned is simply through watching British TV shows. I know there are a multitude of regional accents in the UK but I've chosen one that perhaps is a bit posh.
The problem I have is whether to write the dialogue with the last letter cut off or not (or write words like "ain't").
I'd love to try and write dialogue as I hear it in my head, complete with pauses much like you may find in a script. The periods denote a pause.
For example, "You'll do it,........oh you'll do it,"
The problem is whether this writing format is acceptable or not.
I'm also trying to be as "English" as possible when writing Elizabeth's dialogue. I'm keenly aware that a Brit speaks differently than I do as an American. I'm trying to capture that. One way I've learned is simply through watching British TV shows. I know there are a multitude of regional accents in the UK but I've chosen one that perhaps is a bit posh.
robertreams
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The "periods" as you call it is an ellipsis, properly written dot space, dot space, dot space. It should be used when information is missing from a quote, otherwise ordinary commas will do. Lately it is being used often to indicate a longer than normal pause.
e.g. "We hold these truths. . . That all men," etc.
I would punctuate your sample: "You'll do it. Oh you'll do it!" Unless you meant the first to be a question, It is hard to tell out of context.
Tryin' fer a bit of the king's tongue are ya mi lad? Ain't quite sure I kin 'elp ya.
e.g. "We hold these truths. . . That all men," etc.
I would punctuate your sample: "You'll do it. Oh you'll do it!" Unless you meant the first to be a question, It is hard to tell out of context.
Tryin' fer a bit of the king's tongue are ya mi lad? Ain't quite sure I kin 'elp ya.
sr71plt
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The "goin'" and "somethin'" aren't punctuation issues. And using them for dialogue is fine. The punctuation issue here is that it should be "She's somethin' else, ain't she?" A necessary comma is missing.
Robert's almost got it on his point, except that his example should be "We hold these truths . . . that all men," etc.
The ellipsis has a character space at the beginning too, and "that all men" is part of the original sentence, so "that" isn't capitalized. If what is missing goes into another sentence, the break would need to show this: "We hold these truths. . . . That . . ." (marking the first part ends a sentence by adding a terminal period before the ellipsis).
The example you gave ("You'll do it,........oh you'll do it,") just doubly doesn't happen. Commas aren't used with ellipses, and there's no use in the English language for a string of eight periods.
robertreams
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I concur with Cwatson. There is one paragraph in which you have her period clothing eating ice cream. All because you are afraid of commas. To identify run-ons, look for the word "and". It should not be used to join two thoughts which may or may not hold equal weight. e.g.
QUOTE: "Apparently Martin Taylor had money. (and) Perry was (very) willing to fit a portrait into his busy schedule. or "Because Martin Taylor had money, Perry was willing to work the man's portrait into his busy schedule.
QUOTE: "Apparently Martin Taylor had money. (and) Perry was (very) willing to fit a portrait into his busy schedule. or "Because Martin Taylor had money, Perry was willing to work the man's portrait into his busy schedule.
Okay so look for the "and" in a sentence and substitute either a comma or period in it's place. Gotcha.
