Will there be a cultural/political pendulum swing again?

renard_ruse

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Despite the urban legend that "youth" are naturally liberal culturally and politically, over the past 100 years this has not proved to be the case.

There have been several generational pendulum swings since World War I. The 1920s saw a noticeable trend toward cultural radicalism among the younger generation (I could dig up examples, but not going to waste time doing it). The depression slowed down some of the cultural excesses, but politically society was embracing social democracy and the big government the New Deal through the 30s. Many remained life long supporters of big government and economically liberal policies, though perhaps conservative on cultural issues. These people are almost all dead now.

With World War II and the post-war years, the general population, including the younger generation became much more traditional. Sure, there was the rock n' roll culture of the 50s and young free-spirited rebels, but the majority of youth aspired to a suburban, material lifestyle, nuclear families, strong "gender" differentiation, etc. These so-called "silent generation" mostly worked hard, saved money, and watched the changes in society, often dismayed by them (though of course, many were involved in implementing them as well). Most of these people are now the "very old" (75+).

Then, of course, the much discussed and dissected Baby Boomers came along. Although many of them were actually not the crazed hippie radicals that pop culture has retrospectively assigned to the entire generation, its clear that overall this generation was culturally transformative, embracing drug use, casual sex, long hair, and other things shocking to their elders. While this generation has gravitated more to the right politically over the years, and become a very divided generation in its attitudes as its aged, its still viewed as having been a "liberal" generation when young. They are now the old middle age and younger elderly.

The Boomers were followed by the most awesome generation, the youth from about the mid-70s to the mid-90s, which largely, but not entirely coincides with Generation X (the early and middle parts of the generation, less so those at the tail end). This group was very politically conservative during its youth, many of them having revered Ronald Reagan, who was massively popular among teens and young adults during the 80s. It was moderately more culturally conservative than the Boomers that preceded them, which is evidenced by some of the representations of them in the media at the time (watch Family Ties for instance). Perhaps, in a mirror image to the Boomers, Gen X has become somewhat more liberal as its aged, but remains overall relatively politically conservative.

Of course, we are all familiar with Generation Y ("Millennials"). This generation is the first one to truly fully embrace the radical ideals from the 60s and 70s, and even carry them to further extremes. Its not a stretch to call them the most liberal generation in American history, both culturally and politically. Commentators point to this as proof that liberalism, especially cultural and social liberalism is irreversible. Yet, they conveniently ignore the pendulum swings over the past 100 years and forget the much more conservative youth of the 80s and early 90s.

If one looks at history, it would seem the odds are good there will be some sort of pendulum swing back toward some sort of more conservative attitudes either politically or culturally or both among a young generation in the future (of course, we don't what form that may take or what the issues with be at the time). Yet, one could possibly argue that there's some sort of fundamental change in American or human nature and the era of pendulum swings is over.

I will place my bet on history being a guide, but cycles are not even and may take a while, even a couple more generations, or it may happen any time. I believe it will happen though.
 
If straw men married straw women, what would the straw children be like?
 
It will....like I said I hope the GOP gets total control of the gov in 16...it's the only hope for m'urican liberalism's long term survival.

That is to say the current GOP is so far RW bat shit theocon nutter right now they will crash the fucking country and plunge this fucker in to war because hell or high water they want the US to be 1400's England status.

But at least something other than the current circle jerk of stupid will be forced to GTFO.
 
obama is a fuck up, we need a intelligent person for POTUS. one that understands the world, not a boy in a bubble
 
The flaw in the ointment here is thinking that political opinions fit neatly in a Left-Right, Liberal-Conservative one dimensional range.

For starters, "liberals" in the US aren't liberal in any way that's understood outside the US. The moniker is just a quirk of the Bull Moose split. Democrats are, by and large, Progressives and Socialists. Republicans are Conservatives and Liberals. That's with a pretty, uhm, liberal application of the names.

Anyhoo, what the "youth" believe now is not what they are going to believe in the future: the youth believe what they are told, then they get experience in the real world, and then believe what they want (and then tell their children what to believe).

In the end, societies advance, sometimes faster, sometimes slower. They don't "swing". New technologies make prior social systems obsolete; but we can't just implement any new idea just because it's new (and let's face it, most of the youth of today are not advocating "new" ideas, but simply ideas that they personally haven't seen yet, although the world has). A balance between conservatives questioning the new ideas of Liberals/Progressives is what ultimately leads the country forward.
 
Democrats are, by and large, Progressives and Socialist.

:rolleyes: If only! The Warren-Sanders-Kucinich left-progressive wing is, in fact, not predominant in the party; Obama's and Bill's and Hillary's center-right/neoliberal business-friendly wing is predominant, and has been for decades now.
 
when we get a real POTUS, and American's wake up to the obama debt ... hell, even the salves will go on strike and get jobs. someone has to pay for all that debt obama created
 
the percentage of people attending church has been in decline since the begining of the Industrial Revolution.. the only way this will change is if we enter another dark age
 
:rolleyes: If only! The Warren-Sanders-Kucinich left-progressive wing is, in fact, not predominant in the party; Obama's and Bill's and Hillary's center-right/neoliberal business-friendly wing is predominant, and has been for decades now.
I didn't say leaders, I said Democrats. And just because Obama and the Clintons fall on the liberal side from your point of view, it doesn't mean they are right-wing. After all, you're not exactly center, now, are you? They are fairly progressive by American standards. Of course they have to work withing the existing political culture of the US, which is decidedly liberal.

Actually, yeah, it pretty much is; and to the extent it does change over time, it is unlikely to change in a conservative direction.
Also, what ideas we call "progressive" today pretty much will be the ideas called "conservative" when we're old. You might think that being in favor of gay marriage and against polygamy might be pretty progressive today; but 30 years from now, that might be considered a backwards point of view. Kinda like how our grandparents thought that supporting women's right to vote was pretty progressive, but they're the ones being called conservative dinosaurs today.
 
I didn't say leaders, I said Democrats.

Well, if you're talking about the Dem base, it is still not nearly as left-progressive as you seem to think it is. Your best guide here is the Pew Political Typology. The ones you are thinking of would be the "Solid Liberals," who make up only 15% of the general public and 17% of registered voters. For comparison, the "Steadfast Conservatives," the Tea Party base, make up 12%/15%, but that's still more than the "Business Conservatives," 10%/12%
 
I didn't say leaders, I said Democrats. And just because Obama and the Clintons fall on the liberal side from your point of view, it doesn't mean they are right-wing. After all, you're not exactly center, now, are you?

KO rarely takes into account his hyper left wing communist POV.

They are fairly progressive by American standards. Of course they have to work withing the existing political culture of the US, which is decidedly liberal.

But he is right...they are not very progressive at all, they have been painted as hyper lefty commies by the media but in practice they are little different than the crony capitalist neocons those on the left love to bash.

The US is arguably the LEAST liberal 1st world industrialized nation on the planet.....
 
KO rarely takes into account his hyper left wing communist POV.

I am placing the goalposts where they properly belong, i.e., according to the international standards of the industrialized democracies, by which standards Warren and Sanders and Kucinich and Nader are really not very far to the left at all. There are many such countries, you know, where actual Communist and Socialist and Social-Democratic parties, running under those names, are major players and sometimes get control of the government or join governing coalitions. In international terms, American "progressives" are social democrats, well to the left of liberals and well to the right of socialists and way far to the right of Communists. But, whether through willful ignorance or whether through just plain ignorance or whether through malicious and disingenuous dishonesty, the American RW tends to blur these distinctions and always seems to be looking at the left side of the spectrum through the wrong end of a telescope.
 
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I am placing the goalposts where they properly belong,

Sure....whatever you say....

the American RW tends to blur these distinctions and always seems to be looking at the left side of the spectrum through the wrong end of a telescope.

What's that got to do with the fact that you are ULTRA SUPER DUPER PARTISAN left?

You're the undisputed LW knob bob C&P champion of the internet and no amount of RW dipshittery changes that....

We all know what you're going to post before it ever happens....the further left the better, right = all worlds woes.....salon C&P.....salon C&P....socialism great communism better!!....salon C&P....salon S&P......salon C&P...(D) perfect (R) evil but (C) the best!! .....salon C&P....Salon C&P...

http://media.giphy.com/media/hEwkspP1OllJK/giphy.gif
 
What's that got to do with the fact that you are ULTRA SUPER DUPER PARTISAN left?

My politics are generally those of the Working Families Parties or the Vermont Progressive Party or Canada's New Democrats. This is ULTRA SUPER DUPER PARTISAN left? Seriously?!

We all know what you're going to post before it ever happens....the further left the better, right = all worlds woes.....salon C&P.....salon C&P....socialism great communism better!!....salon C&P....salon S&P......salon C&P...(D) perfect (R) evil but (C) the best!! .....salon C&P....Salon C&P...

Salon is ULTRA SUPER DUPER PARTISAN left? Seriously?! Not even The Nation or Mother Jones or In These Times is ULTRA SUPER DUPER PARTISAN left. That would be The Daily Worker or International Socialist Review or some such. You are not living on the planet with the blue sky, if you look at where I am and see a red one.
 
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Sooo... I'm gonna assume Renard for some inexplicable reason thinks the pendulum currently is tilted leftward?
 
It is interesting that while we use terms like Liberal, or Conservative etc. Those are terms that are only generally understood.

How Conservative is Ted Cruz? In my estimation he is just a slippery lawyer buttering up the least informed part of the electorate to get elected. If he does, he knows that his overlords will reward him, for doing as he will be told. If he doesn't he can ride the rubber chicken circuit for at least 20 years. Like Santorum, who pumps the evangelicals a bit more than Cruz.

How progressive is Hillary Clinton? In my estimation she is just like Obama, a shill for the highest bidder, so she will never breakup the too big to fail banks, or divert half of the Pentagon budget to social development programs like education and infrastructure development.

Rather than estimate the Left-Right placement of pol's we should be asking, which of them will actually attempt to fulfill their campaign promises even if it means not getting re-elected for another term?
 
which of them will actually attempt to fulfill their campaign promises even if it means not getting re-elected for another term?

Not a single fucking one of them....too many commas on the check.
 
I'm still trying to figure out how renard thinks gen-xers were conservatives

the same generation that brought you all night xtc fuelled raves, who essentially built internet porn, the ones that protested apartheid, the ones that listened to grunge and gangsta rap

all his friends worshipped Reagen.. doesnt mean all gen-xers did
 
Well, if you're talking about the Dem base, it is still not nearly as left-progressive as you seem to think it is. Your best guide here is the Pew Political Typology. The ones you are thinking of would be the "Solid Liberals," who make up only 15% of the general public and 17% of registered voters. For comparison, the "Steadfast Conservatives," the Tea Party base, make up 12%/15%, but that's still more than the "Business Conservatives," 10%/12%
I'm talking about the people who favour universal healthcare, free higher education, marriage equality, social equality (putting a ratio between entry-level and CEO pay), people who see equality as more important than freedom.

Look, let's get our definitions clear: a liberal is someone who believes that problems are best solved by letting people choose for themselves. A progressive is someone who believes we can build a better society by creating a social and legal structure to help people achieve their dreams. A socialist is someone who believes that the good of society is more important than what's good for the individual, so we must solve problems by socializing them. A conservative is someone who believes "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". And a communist is someone who believes in a wide variety of interpretation of Marx's theories, which can range from a communitarian view of anarchy to dictatorship of the proletariat.

So, when presented with a problem, say "minimum wage is too low":

- A conservative would be opposed to raising the minimum wage, but would probably be open to it being adjusted for inflation (but is also opposed to inflation, because, you know, price changes).
- A liberal would would be unhappy with the concept of minimum wage, preferring people to enter work contracts of their own free will -ie not forced to work for a less than livable wage, but neither forced to pay an employee more than they are willing to.
- A progressive would want the minimum wage fixed at a "fair" rate, and preferably in a ratio between the minimum wage and the CEO -that way, no one makes too much money, and no one makes too little.
- A socialist would want the minimum wage decided by a popular vote, based on what's best for society, making sure everyone has a "fair share" of the profits each business makes.
- A communist would be opposed to the idea of a minimum wage, believing that people should all share in the wealth of society; this would probably be followed by an exposition on how greed and the pursuit of money has corrupted society.

But he is right...they are not very progressive at all, they have been painted as hyper lefty commies by the media but in practice they are little different than the crony capitalist neocons those on the left love to bash.

The US is arguably the LEAST liberal 1st world industrialized nation on the planet.....
The problem is the US has this unusual definition of "liberal" which always gets in the way of this kind of conversation.

Being progressive is far from being ultra hyper lefty; they're pretty much "left of centre" in most countries. The thing is, following the cold war, being anything genuinely left is pretty much socially unacceptable in the US, so people who believe in stronger progressive, socialists or even communist ideas use a different moniker to identify themselves.

Socialists are just as apt at engaging in crony capitalism as conservatives (or neocons/neolibs); where you are on the political spectrum has no bearing on how willing you'll be to accept campaign donations from someone in exchange for crafting legislation that favors them.

Crony capitalism is not the objective of any political movement; it's the consequence of having people with loose morals in positions of power overseeing a capitalist economy. If you replace a capitalist economy with a planned economy, you'll just have crony "communism"; where people in positions of power craft legislation to benefit people who support them politically.

But I agree: as far as most developed countries go, the US is pretty low on the list of most liberal countries. Ironically, the oft-maligned "socialist" countries of Scandinavia have freer economies and societies than the US.

I am placing the goalposts where they properly belong, i.e., according to the international standards of the industrialized democracies, by which standards Warren and Sanders and Kucinich and Nader are really not very far to the left at all. There are many such countries, you know, where actual Communist and Socialist and Social-Democratic parties, running under those names, are major players and sometimes get control of the government or join governing coalitions. In international terms, American "progressives" are social democrats, well to the left of liberals and well to the right of socialists and way far to the right of Communists. But, whether through willful ignorance or whether through just plain ignorance or whether through malicious and disingenuous dishonesty, the American RW tends to blur these distinctions and always seems to be looking at the left side of the spectrum through the wrong end of a telescope.
Yeah, and not only do I live in one of those countries, I'm politically active as well. So I have a pretty good idea what actual socialism and progressivism stands for as well as works in the real world.

Of course the RW blurs the distinctions, in the same way that the LW blurs the distinctions between conservative and corporatist, being a Republican and the Tea Party, and accusing conservatives of creating/support dictatorships, fascism and being Nazis. Welcome to political activism, where we are more interested in makings sure you don't vote for the wrong guy, than making sure you vote for the right one ;)

As an aside, I can't believe anyone who graduated college in the last eight years, is happy with the job market. Just my feeling, but I think that may play a role in the next few elections.
The other thing is that the US -along with pretty much every other developed country- has a habit of swinging between Republican and Democrat presidencies.

It is interesting that while we use terms like Liberal, or Conservative etc. Those are terms that are only generally understood.

Rather than estimate the Left-Right placement of pol's we should be asking, which of them will actually attempt to fulfill their campaign promises even if it means not getting re-elected for another term?
The thing is, applying labels to certain groups makes it a lot easier to know who to hate. If you're on the left, you hate conservatives because they are holding the country back. If you are on the right, you hate liberals because they are corrupting that which makes the country strong.

The terms need to be generally understood insofar as they identify the "enemy"; "don't vote for him, he's conservative and wants to rape women!" "don't vote for him, he's liberal and wants to get your kid hooked on pot!" Having more definitive understanding of liberal/conservative would force voters to actually think of the their opposing candidate's platform, and that might keep them from being motivated to go vote for who they "should" in order to keep America from falling in the hands of "the wrong people".

Of course, the whole point of that is to keep you focused on why the other side is so bad so you don't notice how screwed up the people you voted for are. Because, in the end, how much you hate the "other side" -as long as you vote for your guy- doesn't matter.

If a bunch of Democrats show up to picket a Republican's office.... do you think the Republican is going to care? Of course not! Those people never have, and never will vote for him. A Democrat congressman who gets a bunch of angry letters from conservative is just going to chuckle and throw them in the trash - because they would never vote for him.

Now, if a bunch of Democrats show up to rally against a Democrat - now that's going to get some attention. Because they will vote for the democratic candidate. Likewise, a Republican is going to pay attention to a bunch of angry letters form conservative constituents, because that means he might lose votes.

The only people who can hold politicians accountable are the people who elected them. I.e. if Obama is doing a bad job, then the only people who can demand he do a better one are Democrats. The only way Republicans are going to have a better candidate is if Republicans bother to vote for one, instead of vote against Hillary.

If you want to make sure your candidate will attempt to fulfill their campaign promises - and make realistic promises in the first place - you have to be willing to not only not vote for them, but willing to vote for someone else if they don't follow through.

As long as you feel that you can't vote for someone else, because that means the "other side" will win ... well, then politicians are just going to keep lying to and riding that gravy train.
 
The meaning of anything is its outcome. Its a simple truth most people don't get. Regardless of how you add the numbers, 4=4.

And whats up is the abandonment of most American institutions, because theyre shit holes. Obama whines about it but his kids don't go to public schools or hang out in public parks, and wont live in projects or ride city buses.

Perfessers are wailing about declining college enrollments, and plenty of colleges are closing their doors, because people get how bogus diplomas are these days. Niggers get sheepskins just for showing up and showing their asses. Faggots make everyone waste time taking aids dance and poetry courses (so theyre not in class alone). And gals load up on any course with LITE appended to the nomenclature: MATH-lite, SCIENCE-lite. When the girls show up so does the shit. Public colleges are shit.
 
Salon is ULTRA SUPER DUPER PARTISAN left? Seriously?! Not even The Nation or Mother Jones or In These Times is ULTRA SUPER DUPER PARTISAN left.

I'll buy that as soon as you admit the American Thinker, FOX and InfoWarz aren't super partisan right.

That's what I thought....;)

Nothing to you is super partisan left...because you're the LW equivalent of vetteman minus the douchey macho bullshit. L=perfect R= evil!! and that's as far as you take it.....

The problem is the US has this unusual definition of "liberal" which always gets in the way of this kind of conversation.

Being progressive is far from being ultra hyper lefty; they're pretty much "left of centre" in most countries. The thing is, following the cold war, being anything genuinely left is pretty much socially unacceptable in the US, so people who believe in stronger progressive, socialists or even communist ideas use a different moniker to identify themselves.

Socialists are just as apt at engaging in crony capitalism as conservatives (or neocons/neolibs); where you are on the political spectrum has no bearing on how willing you'll be to accept campaign donations from someone in exchange for crafting legislation that favors them.

Crony capitalism is not the objective of any political movement; it's the consequence of having people with loose morals in positions of power overseeing a capitalist economy. If you replace a capitalist economy with a planned economy, you'll just have crony "communism"; where people in positions of power craft legislation to benefit people who support them politically.

But I agree: as far as most developed countries go, the US is pretty low on the list of most liberal countries. Ironically, the oft-maligned "socialist" countries of Scandinavia have freer economies and societies than the US.

True.....
 
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