Seeking authors and readers opinion. Please Help

[Fantasy_Inscriber]

Before participating do consider:
This is Not an attempt to prove anyone right or wrong.
This is just to gauge the preference of the target audience on this site.
Please DONOT attack or argue with anyone because of their opinion.
Thank you all.

How important punctuation and grammar is in a story?

I have observed on a number of occasions on this site and many other places that some people stress a lot on using correct punctuation and grammar. And leaving demeaning and discouraging comments. Where as a lot of people (mostly young generation) do not have much regard for these rules.

Is the basic use of some punctuation marks e.g. ( " " , / ?.) is sufficient or the lack of proper use too distracting and uninterpretable?

I do know the reason for their proper use. But for a lot of people writing is not part of their daily life other than a few words written in status updates, comments and filling of forms. Which I must add is greatly assisted by the technology (not accurately sometimes) and that effects their efficiency. Also for some people English is not their first language and proper use of these may not matter to them. As a lot of other languages do not need punctuation.

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cambridge Uinervtisy, it deosn't mettar in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny important tihng is taht the frist and last ltteer be at the rghit place. The rest can be a toatl mess and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Same can be said about the use the of grammar.

Thank you again.

P.S. I always appreciate everyones feedback, whether encouraging and appraisive or apprising errors and discrepancies.

 

[bogusguy]

An occasional foul up isn't a big thing. However, if there are lots, it gets annoying and distracts from the story. I am a reader, not an author...yet.

 

[RejectReality]

You're primarily going to get responses from authors here, and it's going to be almost universally leaning toward the "grammar matters" side.

When you get to the bulk of the readership of Lit who are here for sexual gratification, it doesn't matter as much.

Those people aren't the ones who vote and comment for the most part, though. They're either cleaning up because you succeeded, or clicking "back" because you didn't quite do the trick. It's the smaller group who are reading to warm themselves up or for pure entertainment who end up leaving most of the votes and comments. They, like authors, will lean toward "grammar matters".

 

[sr71plt]

Define "some" and distinguish both between punctuation and grammar and between punctuation marks. It won't take long, for instance, to drop out of a story without verbs and one with dialogue but no quotation marks and/or without periods.

I don't think James Joyce would be read much here.

 

[Sammael Bard]

Before participating do consider:
This is Not an attempt to prove anyone right or wrong.
This is just to gauge the preference of the target audience on this site.
Please DO NOT attack or argue with anyone because of their opinion.
Thank you all.

How important punctuation and grammar is in a story?

I have observed on a number of occasions on this site and many other places that some people stress a lot on using correct punctuation and grammar. And leaving demeaning and discouraging comments. Where as a lot of people (mostly young generation) do not have much regard for these rules.

Is the basic use of some punctuation marks e.g. ( " " , / ?.) is sufficient or the lack of proper use too distracting and uninterpretable?


I do know the reason for their proper use. But for a lot of people writing is not part of their daily life other than a few words written in status updates, comments and filling of forms. Which I must add is greatly assisted by the technology (not accurately sometimes) and that effects their efficiency. Also for some people English is not their first language and proper use of these may not matter to them. As a lot of other languages do not need punctuation.

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cambridge Uinervtisy, it deosn't mettar in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny important tihng is taht the frist and last ltteer be at the rghit place. The rest can be a toatl mess and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Same can be said about the use the of grammar.

Thank you again.

P.S. I always appreciate everyones feedback, whether encouraging and appraisive or apprising errors and discrepancies.

I'm from a younger generation and respect these rules more than my 58 year old professor. Your last remark was a sordid generalisation of my generation which sorta pissed me off.

Anyway, back to the topic....

It depends on the reader whether the punctuation is important or not. A reader less inclined towards grammar wouldn't mind the overuse (or lack thereof) of punctuations in a story. Whereas a well-versed reader will find his/her reading experience disappointing if he/she encounters serious mistakes such as the lack of "?" or a period where it's necessary.

As an author, it's important to make sure that a story is polished before it's published anywhere. Free online websites don't have stringent rules regarding these, so almost anyone can get around it.

Should you ignore the rules if you're aware of it?

If you are aware of the rules and still complain about receive flak, it's your own fault. I'm sorry, but nobody can help you.

If you're not a specialist in these things, you should try on your part to get better if you really respect the art of writing. A language has its own rules and people should respect its boundaries. I agree that "localisation" of a language happens on a large scale, but if you're reaching out to an international audience, you have to follow the standards to avoid stringent criticism.

I'm familiar with the demonstration you've given below.

Yeah, the human brain doesn't need to go through an entire word to make sense of it, but you should remember that people aren't glancing through a story. It isn't an article or a top-secret report that has to be finished quickly without much effort. People are here to enjoy the stories, the feelings and the emotions that are associated with the word themselves. IMO, it'll be more of a mental exercise if people start reading through stories like that, forget about getting off it.

 

[Hypoxia]

This is Laurel's site. Grammar and punctuation matter to Laurel. If you want Laurel to approve your submission, get the orthography right.

 

[KaseE]

A lack of proper punctuation, capitalization, grammar, and spelling is the quickest and easiest way to make sure most educated people will disregard what you write.

 

[Fantasy_Inscriber]

A very good point. I was expecting it though.

I'm from a younger generation and respect these rules more than my 58 year old professor. Your last remark was a sordid generalisation of my generation which sorta pissed me off.

Did not intend to offend. Hence the use of "mosty". Also generalisation isn't really of the members of the generation but the time period and circumstances.

Let's face it, language keeps evolving with the technology. There are different ways to express emotions now such as Emojis and Acronyms like "IMFAO"

Yes, it depends on the reader and some marks are very necessary. Most reader are not here for the most accurate and polished stuff. It's mostly amature stuff.

I myself have criticised people before for this. As at some point I was considered a bit better at it than my peers. I even studies Elective English Literature in college. So when I decided to write a story I thought it'll be a piece of cake.

I have not written more than two paragraphs in last 8 years. Have been using computes, tablets and phones to write any letters/e-mails, which assist you with basic errors. With pen and paper? More than 12 years. So when I started to write I realised I do not possess the same skill as before. Some of the mistakes made me laugh and feel pretty stupid. Also I wrote it on my phone, which did try to do a lot of autocorrect, but isn't as correct as it may think. Oh! and it kept changing the name of my characters. I did try to proofread it but as you know our brain does a very good autocorrect without even letting us know the errors.mspecialy when you already know what you are going to read.

I am looking for someone to edit my story
https://www.literotica.com/s/the-pretty-girl-was-much-more
But it's not that easy.

All i am saying is good to give honest feed back. Pointing out a few errors and discrepancies. but some people leave real demeaning and offending comments. Just because someone isn't abiding buy the rules we have been trained to use for any reason, there's no need to lash out at them.

Specially when you have no intention or any clue how to help. But clearly some people just do not get it.

Please share any ideas you may have to help new authorship??

Thank You

P.S. To the grammar whores. If you have time to be a dick to every other person on every other post, maybe u can utilise it to help a few instead?

 

[CyranoJ]

I can't quite tell if you're looking for an actual discussion or just want to castigate people for caring too much about grammar. For charity's sake I'm going to assume the former, and give you the extra-wordy version of what some other people have already said.

I'm not a great leaver of grammar comments. In fact it's something I never do. But grammar definitely matters, and I'll admit it's kind of a pet peeve for me that linguistics research, such as the Cambridge study you mention in the OP, tends to be rather recklessly misused at times by certain parties who want excuses for a certain level of disinterest in grammar and spelling. Any prescriptivist rules about "proper" writing or speech are necessarily fictions in the bigger picture of language evolution -- but that doesn't make them disposable fictions. They exist to lubricate the communication process and promote ease of reading across a wide variety of dialects. Disregarding those rules makes a writer less credible and trustworthy to an audience, in greater degree the more flagrant the disregard.

Which is another way of saying: if you want your audience's respect as a writer, you have to work at earning it. Learning proper grammar, spelling and sentence composition is one of the basic ways of doing that.

Now, for some purposes frankly you can get away with quite a lot. There are plenty of stories on Lit that are far from perfect as craftsmanship goes, but get by on sheer energy and raunch factor, and more power to 'em. But generally speaking, as a reader I find it a lot easier to read stories where I'm not fighting past bad grammar as an obstacle. I'd guess the best way to avoid getting harsh comments about spelling and grammar is just to learn those skills; and I mean actually learn them, since automatic spell- and grammar-checkers produce bizarre results in the hands of people who haven't. Either that, or switch off public comments.

 

[neci]

110% unacceptable.

until it is

 

[Zeb_Carter]

It depends.

In Narrative...a show stopper.

In Dialog...well that's how the character speaks...no problem.

 

[AwkwardMD]

The mechanics of storytelling are just as important as the story.

"Time to eat kids"

Vs

"Time to eat, kids"

The real question, though, is how much you will care if no one ever notices that you've written a strong, sound piece. If having someone tell you that you have good grammar is what you need to justify using good grammar, then a bit of slacking is probably fine. If bad grammar offends you, that's something different.

 

[Fantasy_Inscriber]

You're primarily going to get responses from authors here, and it's going to be almost universally leaning toward the "grammar matters" side.

When you get to the bulk of the readership of Lit who are here for sexual gratification, it doesn't matter as much.

Those people aren't the ones who vote and comment for the most part, though. They're either cleaning up because you succeeded, or clicking "back" because you didn't quite do the trick. It's the smaller group who are reading to warm themselves up or for pure entertainment who end up leaving most of the votes and comments. They, like authors, will lean toward "grammar matters".

An occasional foul up isn't a big thing. However, if there are lots, it gets annoying and distracts from the story. I am a reader, not an author...yet.

Thanks very much for some nice unbiased views. Hope to hear a few more.

Yet to hear from our "uneducated" readers??

Ill admit it's a of a pet peeve for me that linguistics research, such as the Cambridge study you mention in the OP, tends to be rather recklessly misused at times by certain parties who want excuses for a certain level of disinterest in grammar and spelling.

I meant to use this research to also show what happens when you try to proofread your own story. Because thats the only help most amateur authors are getting, "Read your story before posting".

You are right some stories can get away with the help of energy and raunch factor. Some do turn out to serve the purpose they are intended for. Like to have a quickie. Lol

I have been reading stories here for a very long time. My favourites are the Story Series. But I really enjoy reading the comments a lot too. I like putting aside my own view and see someone else's precispective.

Oh and I would not suggest anyone to switch off public comments. However it would be great if the "educated" ones can give constructive critique I think.

Thank you

 

[sr71plt]

Let's face it, language keeps evolving with the technology. There are different ways to express emotions now such as Emojis and Acronyms like "IMFAO"

Let's face this too: language doesn't evolve for readers anywhere near the pace that authors like to toy with it. And if you don't convey meaning to the reader, you might as well just hammer random characters out on your computer.

Publishers understand this. They also know who buys what they sell. This is why almost all publishers are still using the serial comma and distinguishing comma usage strictly between dependent and independent clauses and between "that" and "which" clauses.

 

[CyranoJ]

it would be great if the "educated" ones can give constructive critique I think.

I'm curious now. Do you mind providing an example of the kind of comment you think is not constructive on this topic?

 

[bogusguy]

I like that analogy!
"time to eat kids!" A tale of cannibalism
"time to eat, kids!" A tale of rugrats mooching off their parents lol

 

[sr71plt]

Were you thinking that the whole thread arose from one "you're storry suks. Git a aditor" comment?

 

[CyranoJ]

I certainly hope not...

 

[Hypoxia]

Punctuation imparts pause, drama, setup, timing. Narrative without punctuation is a monotone -- BOE-rringgg...

Grammar imparts sense and context, spatial, temporal, and emotional, clarifies the who, what, when, where, why, how. Narraive without grammar is meaningless. Oy.

If your orthography sucks, so will your readership. If you don't care that nobody but you will ever read your outpourings then have at it. Hey, it's just mental masturbation. But if you want to actually grab eyeballs and souls, straighten up and write right. Your choice.

 

[legerdemer]

I give authors some leeway and don't expect perfection, BUT too many mistakes are completely distracting. When I read a story or book or watch a movie, I come prepared to immerse myself in that world or situation and want to suspend disbelief. Grammatical mistakes as much as clunky writing pull me out of that. I agree with Hypoxia's comments. I've read stories here, occasionally, that had great plots and characters but we're annoying as hell because of poor grammar and editing. And I'm not claiming immunity from that - I err with the best of them.

BTW, I learned English as a second language in my early teens after moving to the U.S.. I find grammatical and spelling mistakes often stick out farther to (and at) me than to native speakers, which I attribute to when and how I learned English.

 

[JackLuis]

Language matters. The conventions in the reader's mind matter most and their concentration gets broken if you make an egregious error.

Here at Lit, you get a lot of slack as a nube, so an occasional fuck up is sort of expected. But what the hell it's free!

A reader/editor is tough to find. Th VE's here can be very helpful, when you can get one.

Don't take Lit too seriously. It is a place to experiment with failure.

 

[Mister_Chris]

Proper punctuation is extremely important. Proper sentence construction is also important; and the 'flow' has to be interesting. A story must be much more than a chronological list of related facts; it should be fun to read. It should entertain you.

The study you mention demonstrates that it is possible to discern the meaning of a word, even if the word is badly misspelled. But given the prevalence of built in spell checkers, misspelt words are usually the least of your worries. (Unless you speak Real English, and must use American spell checkers. But that's another topic.)

Reading fiction should be entertaining. If I must ferret out the meaning of each word, the process is no longer fun, and I move to another story.

If English is a second language to you, have you considered writing fiction in your native language? Literotica has a broad selection of stories written in other languages. Doing so would allow you to practise your craft without having to cross the 'second language' barrier as well.

Good luck to you - MC

 

[slyc_willie]

I'm getting the impression that the OP has read several nit-picking comments regarding grammar and punctuation on either their own or others' stories and has taken them a mite too seriously.

There is a demographic among the readership here at Literotica -- and on just about every other free-to-post fiction site on the Internet, I'd wager -- that delights in tearing apart the grammar and punctuation in a story. I surmise there are numerous reasons for this, ranging from a desire to beat down a writer in the hopes that they will be affected in some way to a misguided attempt to be helpful. When it comes down to it, I really don't care what their reasons are. We, as authors, must invariably suffer a cadre of imbeciles and fools, as it were.

No single writer, ever, is going to get every little bit of punctuation, grammar or spelling correct all of the time. We are going to have our little and our colossal mistakes here and there. A perfect example of the latter -- for me -- is my story Auld Langsyne. It's riddled with errors. I wrote it in one sitting, under the influence of a bit too much of my favorite beer, and sent it off without really bothering to proof it. I could submit an edit, but really, why bother? It's been there for years.

But I digress. Punctuation, grammar, spelling, plot devices and so forth are all necessary to writing a good story. The more effort you put into it -- and not just the purely rewarding act of crafting a tale borne from your twisted little mind, but also the more academic, and mechanical act of polishing it up -- the better it's going to be received. Even those who don't read a story with an eye for technical details can be jarred by the absence of commas, the wrong use of quotes, dramatically elongated spelling (as in the classic amateur example of "ahhhhh! I'm cuuuummmiiinnnggg!!!!") and difficult to follow run-on sentences.

The effort to follow the modern conventions of writing is one of the hallmarks of a conscientious writer. Notice I did not say "good" -- that is subjective. But by following the relatively simple rules of writing for the modern reader, in other words, adhering to the proper use of punctuation and grammar, a writer is indicating a desire to present his or her creation in a format that is likely to be appreciated by the majority of readers. Honestly, that just makes good tactical sense.

Anything less, frankly, smacks to me of laziness, ignorance, and/or a stubborn refusal to understand on a basic level what it means to deliver whatever message a writer wants their story to convey.

Now, there have been those who buck convention. There are those who don't play by the rules. They are extremely few in number, and for whatever reasons, some of them have become literary darlings. James Joyce. Cormac MacArthy. But for every one of those writers who becomes beloved for their rebellious style, there are thousands of others who are told to "polish your work, kid. You write like an idiot."

Now, on a site like Literotica, you can be forgiven for "writing like an idiot," as long as you follow at least some of the basic tenets of fiction writing. No one is expecting to read T.S. Eliot or Earnest Hemingway here. But that's not to say that grammatical laziness should be forgiven. If you write badly, expect to be called out for it.

Or, at least include a lot of close relatives gratuitously joining in on the action. You'll probably be forgiven, then.

*ducks*

Seriously, it comes down to how a writer wants to portray his or her work. It's a matter of integrity, effort, and pride. If you slough off too much, you're basically telling the reader that you're lacking in at least one of those areas.

 

[oggbashan]

The important thing for me AS A READER is the story. If the characters, set up and plot are interesting and well told, I can ignore even dreadful grammar and punctuation.

If the errors are really frequent and bad I might be tempted to rewrite the story myself - just for my own eyes. I have done that with foreign language stories mangled by translation software.

AS AN AUTHOR, I do not like to find spelling or grammatical errors in my stories. I use Word's spell check as a tool to find errors, but even several read-throughs can miss typos. My writing is in British English and I sometimes get adverse feedback for that. I know my grammar isn't perfect but I don't try to make it precise unless it affects the meaning.

I ought to review and edit my older stories but I have so many that it would be a massive task. I prefer to leave them as they were written and move on.

Summary: I think story-telling is more important than technical details of grammar but every flaw detracts from my enjoyment. A great story will overcome any writing flaw; an average one needs adequate spelling and grammar; and a poor story could have perfect grammar and still get back clicked within seconds.

 

[Handley_Page]

Reader:
I find 'slovenly' writing very distracting from the story and the general rhythm.
It's a bally nuisance to think in one mode and have to change half way.
I like a story that gallops along.
[odd typos excepted]

Author:
I try to have the story in a logical (or humorous, exciting [?] or something) manner and try to persuade the reader to come with me.
[which is probably one of the reasons for my low productivity]