FREE Community College! Yay!

[Ishmael]

Or so it would seem.

Free Community College.

This idea is based on a TN effort, and while superficially good the results of what is happening in TN are not in. And as usual, the devil is in the details.

Most of the criticism cited in the article fall into the "not enough money" category and I particularly like the criticism that the program might benefit the less needy more. No "Igor's goat" in that criticism.

The part that bothers me is the quote, "Community colleges must also adopt “promising and evidence-based institutional reforms” to improve student outcomes." Apparently not being satisfied with co-opting the public schools the Feds now want to exert control over the Community Colleges. The size of the bureaucracy that will be required to oversee and administer this proposal can only be imagined.

There is one part that I do like and that is, "To be eligible, community colleges would have to offer academic programs that fully transfer credits to local public four-year colleges and universities or training programs with high graduation rates that lead to in-demand degrees and certificates." Of course the 'gotcha' there is in the "in demand" clause and the outcome will all hinge on how "in demand" is defined.

And then there is the part about no one knowing how much this will actually cost.

Ishmael

 

[RobDownSouth]

Sing along with Ish:
EDUCATION BAD!

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Educators Bad!

 

[JohnnySavage]

I think it's a good idea.

The Elder Mr. Savage was a local politician. When he was Boss Hog, he set up a deal with the local community college that anyone who graduated from either of the two local high schools with a GPA of 3.5 could attend the college for free (to the student).

As I recall, the college was paid a bounty for each student, which was paid for from a 1% tourist tax. It was (and is, I assume) a good program because the kids got certificates in computers, or mechanics or agriculture... some went on to a 4-year college because of the guaranteed admission program the 4-year schools have with the community colleges.

 

[Ishmael]

I think it's a good idea.

The Elder Mr. Savage was a local politician. When he was Boss Hog, he set up a deal with the local community college that anyone who graduated from either of the two local high schools with a GPA of 3.5 could attend the college for free (to the student).

As I recall, the college was paid a bounty for each student, which was paid for from a 1% tourist tax. It was (and is, I assume) a good program because the kids got certificates in computers, or mechanics or agriculture... some went on to a 4-year college because of the guaranteed admission program the 4-year schools have with the community colleges.

I'm not arguing that it's a bad idea, but not so hot on the Federal level. The example you brought up is a local example has virtue in that is that if things start to go south the problem can be dealt with quickly on the local level. And ALL of the local taxpayers have a vested interest.

Once you promote something like this to the Federal level dealing with any problems that arise become damn near an impossibility. Far too many 'special' interests get their fingers in the pie. And there are the politicians that get special boons for their states at the expense of taxpayers who have no dog in the hunt. These sort of programs take on the aspect of a cash cow more than any real benefit to the public.

Keep it local.

Ishmael

 

[JohnnySavage]

I'm not arguing that it's a bad idea, but not so hot on the Federal level. The example you brought up is a local example has virtue in that is that if things start to go south the problem can be dealt with quickly on the local level. And ALL of the local taxpayers have a vested interest.

Once you promote something like this to the Federal level dealing with any problems that arise become damn near an impossibility. Far too many 'special' interests get their fingers in the pie. And there are the politicians that get special boons for their states at the expense of taxpayers who have no dog in the hunt. These sort of programs take on the aspect of a cash cow more than any real benefit to the public.

Keep it local.

Ishmael

I don't disagree with any of that.

The problem will be.. as soon as the community colleges see that they are going to get some federal money for warm bodies, they are going to find bodies and raise their prices. Exactly what happened with the Universities

 

[Busybody]

hopefully they will learn usefull stuff

and not

Black studies

Cunt studies

and related


Degenerate shit

 

[yossi]

I don't know if Christie has since chucked this program out the window, but when I was in high school NJ STARS was created, and allowed for all high school students who graduated in the top 20% of their class to attend the local community college for free. (Classes and fees were covered, books were not.) I like the idea of the government investing in the higher education of the population.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Or so it would seem.

Free Community College.

This idea is based on a TN effort, and while superficially good the results of what is happening in TN are not in. And as usual, the devil is in the details.

Most of the criticism cited in the article fall into the "not enough money" category and I particularly like the criticism that the program might benefit the less needy more. No "Igor's goat" in that criticism.

The part that bothers me is the quote, "Community colleges must also adopt “promising and evidence-based institutional reforms” to improve student outcomes." Apparently not being satisfied with co-opting the public schools the Feds now want to exert control over the Community Colleges. The size of the bureaucracy that will be required to oversee and administer this proposal can only be imagined.

There is one part that I do like and that is, "To be eligible, community colleges would have to offer academic programs that fully transfer credits to local public four-year colleges and universities or training programs with high graduation rates that lead to in-demand degrees and certificates." Of course the 'gotcha' there is in the "in demand" clause and the outcome will all hinge on how "in demand" is defined.

And then there is the part about no one knowing how much this will actually cost.

Ishmael

They're saying that it's going to "save" us money. They always say that and it's always a lie!

mad:

 

[lovetoread]

I don't know if Christie has since chucked this program out the window, but when I was in high school NJ STARS was created, and allowed for all high school students who graduated in the top 20% of their class to attend the local community college for free. (Classes and fees were covered, books were not.) I like the idea of the government investing in the higher education of the population.

This is still in effect.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Why stop there?


Free education for everyone. It's a right, like health care...

 

[PeteHulbert37]

So Uncle Sam will forgive 2 years worth of my outstanding student loans. Sweet! That will really help me out. Ya know, maybe this entitlement stuff ain't so bad.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Why stop there?


Free education for everyone. It's a right, like health care...

An educated populace scares you to your glibertarian core.

The more educated people are, the less likely they are to buy into your Randian fictions.

 

[sufisaint]

I would support it if only for those with a 3.0 or better, or a propation semester getting at least a 2.5, and completely merit based admissions... but we all know it really just another democratic buy votes give away that will hire more government lparasites...

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

So Uncle Sam will forgive 2 years worth of my outstanding student loans. Sweet! That will really help me out. Ya know, maybe this entitlement stuff ain't so bad.

Did you not take up employment in the Public Sector?

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

I don't disagree with any of that.

The problem will be.. as soon as the community colleges see that they are going to get some federal money for warm bodies, they are going to find bodies and raise their prices. Exactly what happened with the Universities

This is true. If you want the cost to escalate, government is the answer.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

I would support it if only for those with a 3.0 or better, or a propation semester getting at least a 2.5, and completely merit based admissions... but we all know it really just another democratic buy votes give away that will hire more government lparasites...

The high schools would just inflate grades.

 

[Bidin~Time]

This is not the same, but I'll connect it. WV has a Promise scholarship program for kids who score composite 22 on ACT and minimum score of 20 on Math, Science, Reading and English. It pays for all tuition. I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with are the kids who quit school or are asked to leave without achieving a degree. Those kids should be required to pay back all money given them through the program. The same with any similar type program such as the type in the OP. If they leave school due to lack of interest or poor grades all money would have to be repaid.

 

[RobDownSouth]

This is not the same, but I'll connect it. WV has a Promise scholarship program for kids who score composite 22 on ACT and minimum score of 20 on Math, Science, Reading and English. It pays for all tuition. I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with are the kids who quit school or are asked to leave without achieving a degree. Those kids should be required to pay back all money given them through the program. The same with any similar type program such as the type in the OP. If they leave school due to lack of interest or poor grades all money would have to be repaid.

Well, I'll disagree. People leave college all the time for a variety of reasons. The state should have no right to ask for their money back, as a student has no right to ask for his/her money back if he/she does not graduate.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

This is not the same, but I'll connect it. WV has a Promise scholarship program for kids who score composite 22 on ACT and minimum score of 20 on Math, Science, Reading and English. It pays for all tuition. I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with are the kids who quit school or are asked to leave without achieving a degree. Those kids should be required to pay back all money given them through the program. The same with any similar type program such as the type in the OP. If they leave school due to lack of interest or poor grades all money would have to be repaid.

Are you saying, perchance, that a lot of kids are simply not, or were never going to be college material despite all of our good intentions?

 

[RobDownSouth]

Are you saying, perchance, that a lot of kids are simply not, or were never going to be college material despite all of our good intentions?

Some students make this determination for themselves. Better than they make that decision, rather than relying upon people such as yourself to make their decision for them.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Or we could just do what we do when we need skilled welders in NYC...send to Ireland and Trinidad where they're trained at taxpayer expense and avoid having to invest anything in local education. Win win.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Or we could just do what we do when we need skilled welders in NYC...send to Ireland and Trinidad where they're trained at taxpayer expense and avoid having to invest anything in local education. Win win.

What happened to the vaunted unions and the training programs we're always being lectured on...

 

[Bidin~Time]

Are you saying, perchance, that a lot of kids are simply not, or were never going to be college material despite all of our good intentions?

I'm saying they've been coddled to, to the point they don't know what the hell they want. I could introduce to kids who flunked out or partied so much their gpa dropped below the required (2.5, i think) and one young lady who dropped out after she decided she didn't like her room mate. That sort of ridiculousness and shenanigans needs to have consequences, I favor making them pay back the money.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

I'm saying they've been coddled to, to the point they don't know what the hell they want. I could introduce to kids who flunked out or partied so much their gpa dropped below the required (2.5, i think) and one young lady who dropped out after she decided she didn't like her room mate. That sort of ridiculousness and shenanigans needs to have consequences, I favor making them pay back the money.

I look at it as further coddling...

Everyone knows that it takes a BA now to get a part-time flippin' job.



We have to make that free unless we're going to support them on welfare after only two years...