How to be okay with a bisexual polyamorous spouse

[jfowl19830]

Okay, so first off I'd like to introduce myself. My name is John. I've frequented this forum on and off for a few years now. I've come to find that some of you are probably the most sexually enlightened people and some of the most understanding when someone has a real question that they would like help with. I honestly can't think of a group of people more equipped to help me with my current situation. So, my wife and I got married about 7 years ago and have been having difficulties on and off throughout our marriage. One of these difficulties has been her sexuality and how much she's been hiding it. As you can gather from the title, she is bisexual. When we got married she explained it away as kind of just an "experimental phase," but nothing that she was interested in doing at the moment. Well, over the past few years she's had sexual relationships with a few women, and I've tried being okay with it, but it always turned into more of an emotional and sexual relationship than her just fooling around with them. I'm not going to lie, it made me pretty jealous, especially when it was always first starting out with this new person because my wife tends to have the "shiny new toy" effect. She spends more and more time with them and less and less with me and our physical intimacy tends to fade during these times. Well, the last one ended and I kinda thought she was done with that for a while with all the stress it caused our marriage and the fact that she got extremely hurt by this other girl. Well, about a month ago I happened to find out that she was having another relationship with a new girl. It was different this time because, being military and far away from home, we kind of found another family that became our new "away from home" family. Our kids got along and we all got along great. I had even opened up to the wife in this couple about some things that we had gone through with the past and how much it hurt me when she kept these relationships a secret, and she listened and even promised me one night that I had nothing to worry about with her and she wasn't bisexual at all and that they were just really good friends and related to each other really well and that she would never do that me. Well...turns out they did. I approached my wife about it, with her friend present. We had a very long talk about her hiding it and her sexuality and her fears of being outed to her family. I offered, that if she wasn't bisexual but was, in fact, a lesbian, that i would never hold it against her. However, it would be unfair to continue a marriage with me and deprive me of finding someone that could love me. I offered my full support in whatever she had to deal with that might come along with coming out and she cried for a long time (as well as her "girlfriend"(and i parenthesize because she can't really explain to me what she is) sitting in the back crying). The night ended with her telling me that chooses us and our marriage (as well as some pretty great sex following going to bed...definitely didn't see that coming). Well a few days later she tells me that for us to work, I need to be okay with her and her "friend" still remaining close friends. Well, what she actually meant was different than what I thought it meant. She has since explained that she chose us as a constant, and that wherever I go, she will always follow. I thought she meant just friends, thats it. Being that it was what I thought, and it turned out different, I got pretty jealous, as she was still cuddling and what not and being the exact same way as before I had found out about them. This peaked in a huge argument and she's given me an ultimatum....be okay with this side of her, or end the marriage. Now, I love this woman to death and we have two beautiful little girls that adore the both of us. I'm torn as to what to do, because I'm afraid that if I agree its going to be all give from me and all take from her, her way or the highway. I've read a few articles and I WANT to be able to do it, I just am not quite sure how. How to deal with an arising jealousy from within, and maybe what kind of boundaries, if any, I should request from her, at least while I get used to the idea. I've thought of asking, for starters, that she never ever hides one of these relationships from me again. Another thing, is that I want her to try to, at the very least, equalize how much she puts into the relationships, instead of the fading affection that has been present (such as the 3-4 months at a time we go without any sex or physical intimacy). Also, that it will NEVER EVER be another guy (I'm willing to go through all this working on myself because of her bisexuality and trying to best as understanding as i possibly can, but that one I CANNOT deal with). Those along with some other things that I feel like she can do better to help me learn to accept all of this (such as stop with bringing up divorce or us not working every single time we get into an argument). Keep in mind, I want very much to be with my wife, when we're good, we're great. I just have a hard time keeping my mind from racing to the worst that she's seeking affection elsewhere because of a shortcoming on my end. I've been known to be sensitive in the sense that I my feelings can be easily hurt (Ive been reading about whats referred to as "highly sensitive people" and am beginning to think I may fit quite well into that classification). All that being said, thank you for reading, please offer me whatever advice you can.......and be easy on me ;-)

 

[coati]

John,

I'm not sure if your title is fully descriptive of your wife. My impression of a true polyamorous person is that the sum of their relationships ends up enhancing the intimacy of each one, and does not, as you indicate, cause physical intimacy to fade in the original relationship. Probably most people can only focus on one intimate relationship at a time. Maybe it will take a while for that shiny new toy effect to wear off.

I do not have any advice. You seem like a thoughtful person who has the ability to express what you are thinking and feeling without flying off the handle, and you are already considering what your boundaries are. That's what it takes to work through these situations.

Coati

 

[fire_breeze]

Okay, so first off I'd like to introduce myself. My name is John. I've frequented this forum on and off for a few years now. I've come to find that some of you are probably the most sexually enlightened people and some of the most understanding when someone has a real question that they would like help with. I honestly can't think of a group of people more equipped to help me with my current situation. So, my wife and I got married about 7 years ago and have been having difficulties on and off throughout our marriage. One of these difficulties has been her sexuality and how much she's been hiding it. As you can gather from the title, she is bisexual. When we got married she explained it away as kind of just an "experimental phase," but nothing that she was interested in doing at the moment. Well, over the past few years she's had sexual relationships with a few women, and I've tried being okay with it, but it always turned into more of an emotional and sexual relationship than her just fooling around with them. I'm not going to lie, it made me pretty jealous, especially when it was always first starting out with this new person because my wife tends to have the "shiny new toy" effect. She spends more and more time with them and less and less with me and our physical intimacy tends to fade during these times. Well, the last one ended and I kinda thought she was done with that for a while with all the stress it caused our marriage and the fact that she got extremely hurt by this other girl. Well, about a month ago I happened to find out that she was having another relationship with a new girl. It was different this time because, being military and far away from home, we kind of found another family that became our new "away from home" family. Our kids got along and we all got along great. I had even opened up to the wife in this couple about some things that we had gone through with the past and how much it hurt me when she kept these relationships a secret, and she listened and even promised me one night that I had nothing to worry about with her and she wasn't bisexual at all and that they were just really good friends and related to each other really well and that she would never do that me. Well...turns out they did. I approached my wife about it, with her friend present. We had a very long talk about her hiding it and her sexuality and her fears of being outed to her family. I offered, that if she wasn't bisexual but was, in fact, a lesbian, that i would never hold it against her. However, it would be unfair to continue a marriage with me and deprive me of finding someone that could love me. I offered my full support in whatever she had to deal with that might come along with coming out and she cried for a long time (as well as her "girlfriend"(and i parenthesize because she can't really explain to me what she is) sitting in the back crying). The night ended with her telling me that chooses us and our marriage (as well as some pretty great sex following going to bed...definitely didn't see that coming). Well a few days later she tells me that for us to work, I need to be okay with her and her "friend" still remaining close friends. Well, what she actually meant was different than what I thought it meant. She has since explained that she chose us as a constant, and that wherever I go, she will always follow. I thought she meant just friends, thats it. Being that it was what I thought, and it turned out different, I got pretty jealous, as she was still cuddling and what not and being the exact same way as before I had found out about them. This peaked in a huge argument and she's given me an ultimatum....be okay with this side of her, or end the marriage. Now, I love this woman to death and we have two beautiful little girls that adore the both of us. I'm torn as to what to do, because I'm afraid that if I agree its going to be all give from me and all take from her, her way or the highway. I've read a few articles and I WANT to be able to do it, I just am not quite sure how. How to deal with an arising jealousy from within, and maybe what kind of boundaries, if any, I should request from her, at least while I get used to the idea. I've thought of asking, for starters, that she never ever hides one of these relationships from me again. Another thing, is that I want her to try to, at the very least, equalize how much she puts into the relationships, instead of the fading affection that has been present (such as the 3-4 months at a time we go without any sex or physical intimacy). Also, that it will NEVER EVER be another guy (I'm willing to go through all this working on myself because of her bisexuality and trying to best as understanding as i possibly can, but that one I CANNOT deal with). Those along with some other things that I feel like she can do better to help me learn to accept all of this (such as stop with bringing up divorce or us not working every single time we get into an argument). Keep in mind, I want very much to be with my wife, when we're good, we're great. I just have a hard time keeping my mind from racing to the worst that she's seeking affection elsewhere because of a shortcoming on my end. I've been known to be sensitive in the sense that I my feelings can be easily hurt (Ive been reading about whats referred to as "highly sensitive people" and am beginning to think I may fit quite well into that classification). All that being said, thank you for reading, please offer me whatever advice you can.......and be easy on me ;-)

Welcome to this side of Lit

One word of advice, though, to making your stay here much easier: paragraphs are your friend. It's very difficult to read this one block of text and not have the lines jumbled up. So paragraphs, buddy.

I looked at your posting history. You discuss sharing your wife:

well...like the very first post of this topic said, im also up for chatting with another husband about wife sharing or even just a hung stud to chat/trade pics/mutual masturbation/or even cam to cam if ur down...

well...the last two photos got removed...so heres a link to view them

http://www.keepandshare.com/photo/364442/my-wife?fv=y&ifr=&vo=lt

hi yall...we're kinda new to this...but kinda wanna see what kinda reaction wed get...shes 21 and we've always fantasized about having a threesome with another guy...i guess we just wanna see what you guys think about her body and we'd like to know(in as much detail as ur willing to provide) what ud like to do to her body...the dirtier the better...so...here goes..

So I'm a bit confused as to how you want to establish the no-man rule when you discuss this, including jacking off to other man. There seems to be a bit of an inconsistency with regards to seeing other people...

IF! This is an honest request, here's what I wrote before checking your posting history:

I think you and your wife need to sit down and figure out certain things: what does having a close friend mean, exactly? Why does she mean by opening up the relationship? What are the boundaries? If you are her primary, what does that mean to you and to her? There are a multitude of discussion points that you should talk about and clarify. In order for any type of relationship to work, whether it is mono, poly, intimate, romantic, friendship, business, whatever, you need to have communication in order to make sure you understand each other and are on the same page.

Cheating, for many people, is when you lie and hide. Even poly couples can cheat when they lie and hide about their relationships. You may give your blessing for her to have girlfriends but you don't want to hear about it and that is still not cheating. But when it's direct lying... well. There are some wonderful Litsters who are polyamorous who will be able to offer some concrete advice, but from what I understand, poly is about enhancing and giving, not getting your rocks off. It's also about absolute trust and communication.

And forget what some articles tell you how everyone or every man is deeply ingrained to be poly. That's bullshit. Some people are simply hardwired to be monoamorous, others polyamorous, just as some people are hardwired to be dominants, others submissives. You're hardwired to be mono. Your wife says that she's poly. Both are okay.

You have every right to sit down with her and discuss the parameters of your relationship and what is okay with you both. If not, you will grow to resent her, and that will spell huge trouble in the future. Also, while I understand that you have two children, please remember that they will model their future relationships after what they see. Will they see a mutually loving, respectful, communicative couple in a stress-free environment, or will they see their parents under tremendous amount of stress, feeling resentment and jealousy. Children are phenomenally perceptive and will pick up on it, so you can try to hide it all you want, but they will know.

And this is just me, but ultimatums are a huge red flag. But I'm not married with children, so what do I know?

Good luck

 

[SweetErika]

John, if your situation/post is legit, I'd strongly suggest finding a LGBT and Poly-friendly therapist to work with. There are sites that list such therapists online; good therapists will also be happy to interview and discuss their experience in those realms with you, refer you to colleagues who specialize in LGBT and consensual nonmonogamy, etc.

It sounds like you and your wife have a shitload of issues to work through and trust to rebuild before you can move forward with your relationship(s). Poly is a tough road for even those relationships with the strongest foundations.

If you'd care to shed light on your previous posts, you'll probably get more specific advice. Those of us who have been here for awhile have been burned one too many times by members who seemingly have genuine questions and a history of contradictory posts that we didn't think to view until after we'd spent a bunch of time and effort trying to help.

 

[NightL]

I have tried three times to read your anxiety slab of text - just can't do it.

If you can write that much without taking a breath you are not ready. Since I have not read the BLOCK I can't really say what you are not ready for, but you are just not ready. Drop it, leave it alone, think about all the pretty flowers in the garden and preoccupy yourself with anything other than what you were trying to write about. It is just not going to work for you.

 

[Bramblethorn]

(Like the others have said: paragraph breaks are your friend!)

I'm not going to lie, it made me pretty jealous, especially when it was always first starting out with this new person because my wife tends to have the "shiny new toy" effect. She spends more and more time with them and less and less with me and our physical intimacy tends to fade during these times.

Sounds like NRE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_relationship_energy

One of the myths of polyamory (and I say this as somebody who's been poly for, um, 12 years I think?) is that well-adjusted people don't get jealous. I don't mind the idea of my partner being with somebody else, but I definitely get unhappy when my own relationship suffers as a result. Not that I expect to monopolise my partner's attention, but I expect a certain level of attention, and it sounds like you're not getting what you need. I think just about anybody would be unhappy in that situation, especially since this isn't what you signed up for.

However, it would be unfair to continue a marriage with me and deprive me of finding someone that could love me. I offered my full support in whatever she had to deal with that might come along with coming out and she cried for a long time (as well as her "girlfriend"(and i parenthesize because she can't really explain to me what she is) sitting in the back crying). The night ended with her telling me that chooses us and our marriage (as well as some pretty great sex following going to bed...definitely didn't see that coming). Well a few days later she tells me that for us to work, I need to be okay with her and her "friend" still remaining close friends. Well, what she actually meant was different than what I thought it meant. She has since explained that she chose us as a constant, and that wherever I go, she will always follow. I thought she meant just friends, thats it. Being that it was what I thought, and it turned out different, I got pretty jealous, as she was still cuddling and what not and being the exact same way as before I had found out about them. This peaked in a huge argument and she's given me an ultimatum....be okay with this side of her, or end the marriage. Now, I love this woman to death and we have two beautiful little girls that adore the both of us. I'm torn as to what to do, because I'm afraid that if I agree its going to be all give from me and all take from her, her way or the highway.

That's certainly a concern, from what you've said.

IME making polyamory work requires trust, honesty, and good communication skills, and so far it doesn't sound as if those are present. In your situation I would want a good understanding of why my partner had lied to me before, and reason to believe it wasn't going to happen again. She needs to be willing to talk through this stuff with you - a poly-friendly counsellor would be a really good idea if you can find one. If she's not able to do that, then as hard as it may seem, it's probably better for everybody if you try for an amicable breakup - which might be tough on your kids, but it's better than growing up with parents who don't trust or respect one another.

Even if she's willing to do all that - you will need to figure out whether polyamory is something you can live with. Some people just aren't wired for it. I've seen people talk themselves into agreeing to poly when their heart wasn't in it, and it's not a good situation. And you probably won't be able to tell at the moment whether you're a "not cool with poly EVER" or just "not cool with this particular situation" person.

If I were you, I might tell her something like "If you will promise these things (communication, honesty, working through counselling together etc etc) I will give this a try and see if it's something I can live with". But I wouldn't be promising that yet.

If you haven't found it already, I'd recommend "More Than Two": https://www.morethantwo.com/ It has some good thoughts on poly relationships.

How to deal with an arising jealousy from within, and maybe what kind of boundaries, if any, I should request from her, at least while I get used to the idea. I've thought of asking, for starters, that she never ever hides one of these relationships from me again.

Absolutely.

Another thing, is that I want her to try to, at the very least, equalize how much she puts into the relationships, instead of the fading affection that has been present (such as the 3-4 months at a time we go without any sex or physical intimacy).

I don't think "equalise" is quite the word here - you don't want to get into the sort of situation where you're keeping spreadsheets on who's getting 10% more affection than who. Identify what your needs are and let her decide whether she's capable of meeting those; don't focus on how much somebody else is getting.

(That said, when one partner isn't getting enough, reminding them of how much you're giving the other partner is a Really Bad Idea.)

Also, that it will NEVER EVER be another guy (I'm willing to go through all this working on myself because of her bisexuality and trying to best as understanding as i possibly can, but that one I CANNOT deal with).

This is what poly folk refer to as the "One Penis Policy". I'd encourage you to think carefully about your reasons for this. Some of the common reasons guys ask for an OPP rule in a poly relationship:

- They believe a female-female relationship is less "real" and less of a threat to their own than another guy would be. I think your own experience has already shown you this isn't true.
- They're afraid of catching The Gay by proxy. However that works.
- They're afraid that it'll hurt their own social status if people find out "their" woman is sleeping with another guy. Being insecure about that sort of thing generally isn't a good omen for a poly relationship.

Those along with some other things that I feel like she can do better to help me learn to accept all of this (such as stop with bringing up divorce or us not working every single time we get into an argument). Keep in mind, I want very much to be with my wife, when we're good, we're great. I just have a hard time keeping my mind from racing to the worst that she's seeking affection elsewhere because of a shortcoming on my end. I've been known to be sensitive in the sense that I my feelings can be easily hurt (Ive been reading about whats referred to as "highly sensitive people" and am beginning to think I may fit quite well into that classification).

Honestly, I don't think you'd need to be "highly sensitive" to feel hurt and insecure about this situation, from what you've described of it.

 

[GiggLeGasm]

Please don't think I'm taking your situation lightly when I compare what you're going through to a classic case of sibling rivalry.
She's essentially said to you, "I love you so much that I want another lover too"

It's normal for you to be jealous of them.
It's normal for you to be curious about them.
It's normal for you to be angry at them.

The reason I find it so similar is that the two of you don't seem to have the habit of lovingly discussing your plans before acting upon them. Instead, it's this child-like habit of being impulsive and then toying with the emotional side of the action. Would you ever treat your children this way? Would you treat your best friend this way? If I was in your situation, I would wonder why she isn't giving the girlfriend the ultimatum instead of her lifelong partner/spouse. In either case, ultimatums rarely open the lines of communication. It's something we do with children, which is kind of how this relationship is being played out.

 

[simplegirl]

Cheating is cheating, regardless of whether it's with the same sex or not. So yeah, I'd be upset, angry, betrayed, jealous, .... It sounds like she's using her bi-sexuality to excuse this. Bisexual or not, you do have a right to a monogamous relationship if you desire one. Just because she's bisexual doesn't mean she HAS to have to female sexual relationship in your lives. Secondly, she's resorting to emotional blackmail to force you to accept this. This smacks of lack of respect for you, your feelings and your marriage. It's going to take BOTH of you to save your marriage. I think before any extra relationships enter the equation, you two need to work on stabilizing your marriage before including other people and then only when you're strong enough and expectations and boundaries are clearly established. She may say she wants to save the marriage, but it's her actions that will tell the real story.

I would suggest counseling. You also need to look deep inside yourself and see where you want your marriage to go.

 

[Que]

Since YOU are not polyamorous, and SHE didn't include that little tidbit in the bargain you simply have an unfaithful spouse. She his it and of course these things have an emotional component and those sexual and emotional energies are going into someone else. Why wouldn't you be jealous, you are diminished by her actions

Not to be crude, but put it in this context: My wife really liked a lot of random dick back in the day but when she promised to love honor and cherish she said her days of promiscuity were over, just a phase. Since then she has creeped around with several men and says that she needs strange dick to make herself complete.

By the way. She knows how to make excuses and cover her tracks for an assignation with a woman. It is the same process for when she decides she needs a particular man.

 

[desertslave]

Bramblethorn gave you some excellent information and insight. I just feel compelled to repeat on portion. A genuine poly relationship requires openness, honesty and communication. I strongly believe that those are the key differences between poly and plain old cheating. If she is lying and sneaking around without your knowledge, it's NOT poly. Perhaps she's chosen dishonesty to try to avoid drama and jealousy, but ultimately that's going to be the results she gets by not being honest.

Taking a different angle, if you truly wish to continue the marriage but are willing to agree to her bi/poly side, then you both need to work on your own side of the relationship, so you can grow a stronger degree of trust with each other. You clearly need to be able to know she will always return to you, and she needs to know that her needs will be accepted. And your relationship needs to be solid enough that you don't feel threatened by her girlfriends. This is something that she needs to understand and fulfill for you.

Good luck!

 

[nfrrdscnnr1]

thinka about

Think about trying to change her behavior with rules and guidelines. It hasn't worked in the past and it won't work in the future. She is what she is and that's the way it's going to be--unless and until she decides she needs to change and obtains help from a therapist to do so--and then it might not be possible.
Been there done that (with me trying to follow rules to "fix" a problem) and the pattern just didn't change.
As cruel as it seems, in my view you either decide to accept her behavior and end the marriage. It will, BTW, be better for your children to end the marriage than for the two of you to continue with the tension and angst as things now stand.

 

[suckonsimon]

I want to second what simplegirl has written above.

I want to acknowledge, regarding your past posts which have been quoted, that I do explorations of my fantasies here on lit as if for real, knowing full well that I can enjoy them that way without moving any closer to expressing them in real life. For me, it's important that my wife knows that I do that, else even that would feel like cheating to me but I know that's not where all litsters are, or can ever be.

I want to echo what query has suggested when he quoted vows, and to add another phrase which belongs in there: "forsaking all others, be faithful to him/her as long as you both shall live". Those of us who married, that's what we vowed to and it remains the backcloth to conversation with our spouse about where we are at in our love and commitment to one another.

 

[jfowl19830]

Thank you...

First off, thank you for your responses. I apologize for the run on paragraph as I was just trying to get my thoughts down as quickly as possible. Another thing, regarding my past posts, my wife and I used to explore our sexuality together and thats where most of that stemmed from, its never actually been acted upon as we both felt that it was more of an "in the moment" kinda thing. That being said, i would kindly ask that you please disregard prior posts as a basis for the current situation, which has come around from her dishonesty. Our fantasy talk had always included the both of us in those situations. Since then, she's taken upon herself to act on them solo.

We've had quite a few fights over the years about all this, mostly stemming from my jealousy. But as you all have stated, my jealousy is completely understandable. I'm not sure of the right questions to ask to her before we go down this path. If i even decide to do that. You all are right that our relationship is far from being solid and trusting. But she has what she has now and I don't think shed be willing to quit it in order to work on us. She's asking me to try to be okay with it, even though she says she doesn't really know what this is with this other woman. She says it hasn't gone to sex this time (thank god, because she also disclosed one night that this other woman has herpes)...its just deeply emotional. I'm somewhat inclined to think that she's more on the side of being lesbian than bisexual, but has a paralyzing fear of what that would mean as far as how her family would react and treat her.

She has refused to try counseling, she doesn't believe in it. We tried it once and the counselor was kind of a prissy bitch and didn't offer any valuable advice or insight. With that said, when we talk, its just me and her, and she has a tendancy to only be able to take a little bit of that at a time (not very good at the communication thing). So what are some acceptable boundaries for me to ask for? I don't want to be asking something of her that would be considered impossible standards.

On a side note, one of the reasons (other than the fact that I love my wife dearly despite her hurting me so much) that I want things to work, are because of our little girls. I'm active duty and currently (possibly) up for a commission if I get accepted to the program I've applied to, which would basically mean a full 20 years on active duty (I'm at 7). I know that is an extreme rarity for a judge to grant majority custody to a service member and if they do, the first deployment that almost always gets revoked and given to the other parent. I cannot stand the thought of losing those girls and being a very minimal part of their life for the next 13 years. So please don't just act like its a simple solution to just leave her and move on.

So how should I approach our "big talk" and maybe what are some things to do to keep her at ease but help her understand that I have needs as well that, at the current moment, are not being met?

 

[Kitty]

Simply put:

there is literally no way to be okay with it.

Good luck with everything.

 

[suckonsimon]

JF, here's two totally unrelated responses to your latest to us:

A suggestion from you to her:
"Darling, I need to ask you to imagine, over the next few days, how it would be for you if you made and kept a promise to me that from now on I was going to be your one and only in terms of intimacy and sexual fulfillment, and then tell me, utterly honestly to yourself and to me, how imagining that felt for you."

And ...

A comment from me as a child of a broken marriage who from the age of 10 until 21 saw my father no more than twice a year as we ended up living in different countries: My dad remained emotionally present to me through those years, in a way which still is formative for me, forty years after his death when I was twenty one. I can feel his kiss on my cheek right through my teenage years when we met and when we parted. I kept and still read his letters to me. I have told my children and their children the stories of the things we did together. I know many many men who have nothing like the pride in their dad with whom they lived all their formative years, as I have in mine.

I know in my heart that one principal reason he had the contentedness and love of life about him which so infected me, was that his marriage of misery was over. I hate to think how miserable he would have been, and all of us would have been, if my parents stayed together "for the sake of the children".

What your lovely girls need from you is a dad who is alive with fulfillment, and un-bowed by misery - the kind which may crash like tidal waves over a man who attempts to hang on in there in a situation which will only damage him.

 

[desertslave]

I want to echo what query has suggested when he quoted vows, and to add another phrase which belongs in there: "forsaking all others, be faithful to him/her as long as you both shall live". Those of us who married, that's what we vowed to and it remains the backcloth to conversation with our spouse about where we are at in our love and commitment to one another.

I would respectfully point out that not all vows contain the same words or are made with the same intent. We had a very simple JP ceremony, no religious overtones, and we knew in our own outlook that there was some flexibility involved, within agreed parameters.

Simply put:

there is literally no way to be okay with it.

Good luck with everything.

And I have to disagree with this, as well. Many people are wired monogamous but not everyone. Master has played with others with my knowledge and consent, and I have played with others with his knowledge and consent. It was all okay. He has also played online with others, without my knowledge or consent, and that was most definitely not okay. It was something we both had to work on.

We've had quite a few fights over the years about all this, mostly stemming from my jealousy. But as you all have stated, my jealousy is completely understandable. I'm not sure of the right questions to ask to her before we go down this path. If i even decide to do that. You all are right that our relationship is far from being solid and trusting. But she has what she has now and I don't think shed be willing to quit it in order to work on us. She's asking me to try to be okay with it, even though she says she doesn't really know what this is with this other woman. She says it hasn't gone to sex this time (thank god, because she also disclosed one night that this other woman has herpes)...its just deeply emotional. I'm somewhat inclined to think that she's more on the side of being lesbian than bisexual, but has a paralyzing fear of what that would mean as far as how her family would react and treat her.

<snipped>

So how should I approach our "big talk" and maybe what are some things to do to keep her at ease but help her understand that I have needs as well that, at the current moment, are not being met?

First, I would suggest that you work on an ongoing dialog instead of one "big talk," especially if she has trouble handling it wholesale. IMO the first thing you need to ask for is honesty on her part. If she doesn't know, herself, what she is looking for or finding with this other woman, it may also help her to help herself focus.

I want to make a side comment here about jealousy. I've recently been dealing with this myself, and it's reaffirmed my belief that jealousy comes about when one is insecure in their relationship. If you don't truly know where you stand with your wife, and feel that you've been excluded from her thoughts and actions (which is clearly true) then you are being denied the kind of security that you might otherwise both nurture. This, in turn, denies you the opportunity to allow her to have relationships with others while knowing that your own relationship with her isn't being threatened.

It is not an easy balance to maintain, and virtually impossible without honesty. I think that's the seed of all of this. I'm wondering (no answer expected, except to yourself) if she was non-monogamous in pre-marriage relationships. Or if she was betrayed in the past in some deep way. I'm wondering if she is testing your relationship (maybe without even realizing she is doing so) because of some disappointment or habit from her past.

Just a few thoughts.

 

[Bramblethorn]

She has refused to try counseling, she doesn't believe in it. We tried it once and the counselor was kind of a prissy bitch and didn't offer any valuable advice or insight.

Some counsellors are crappy, especially with polyamory involved. My partner and I had to go through a couple of bad ones before we found one with a helpful mindset. But if she won't do that, it'd be reasonable to put the ball in her court: "we need to restore trust and communication, just making more promises isn't going to cut it, so how do you propose we do that?"

With that said, when we talk, its just me and her, and she has a tendancy to only be able to take a little bit of that at a time (not very good at the communication thing). So what are some acceptable boundaries for me to ask for? I don't want to be asking something of her that would be considered impossible standards.

I can't really tell you what to ask for; it comes down to figuring out what you need here. If it turns out that what you need is impossible for her to give, that doesn't mean you don't need it.

But some things that might be helpful:

- IME "don't ever fuck up" is not a realistic strategy for a relationship; it's far more important to understand that fuckups do happen and have a healthy way to deal with them and repair the damage. In particular, even if she does decide to work on honesty and communication with you, that may be a gradual process; you may want to agree on how to handle it if she does slip, without treating that as license to ignore the agreement.

- Whatever boundaries you set, try to base them on tangible stuff that is within your and her conscious power. A lot of poly people try to set rules like "you can sleep with other people but don't fall in love" and then find out that hey, sometimes when you sleep with somebody you end up falling in love anyway!

- Safe sex: agree on the rules here, and I don't just mean "we'll practice safe sex". Be specific about it, e.g. "barriers to be used always, including for oral".

- Whatever you agree on, write it down.

Side note: assuming you're US military, you may want to be aware of the rules on adultery in case they're relevant to your present or future situation. http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/a/adultery.htm

And I forgot to say before, good luck with all this.

 

[Kitty]

And I have to disagree with this, as well. Many people are wired monogamous but not everyone. Master has played with others with my knowledge and consent, and I have played with others with his knowledge and consent. It was all okay. He has also played online with others, without my knowledge or consent, and that was most definitely not okay. It was something we both had to work on.

Consent. Of course. But the OP clearly is not fully embracing the "polyamorous part." Meaning the OP isn't "wired" to be that way and is facing some dilemmas. In that case, the OP can never naturally accept it. It would have to be, convincing oneself to compromise their native values to fulfill someone else's radical desires. That is just wrong. But you are lucky to be a in a mutual situation.

 

[SweetErika]

First off, thank you for your responses. I apologize for the run on paragraph as I was just trying to get my thoughts down as quickly as possible. Another thing, regarding my past posts, my wife and I used to explore our sexuality together and thats where most of that stemmed from, its never actually been acted upon as we both felt that it was more of an "in the moment" kinda thing. That being said, i would kindly ask that you please disregard prior posts as a basis for the current situation, which has come around from her dishonesty. Our fantasy talk had always included the both of us in those situations. Since then, she's taken upon herself to act on them solo.

Thank you for responding to our questions about your previous posts in a reasonable, explanatory manner.

I'm not sure of the right questions to ask to her before we go down this path. If i even decide to do that.

I think it'd behoove BOTH of you to read up on polyamory and get some sort of a basic foundation, working language, ideas and suggestions from your research. Finding an online poly support group/network can be really helpful as well. Listen to the good AND bad outcomes, see if poly is workable for you, personally. That's the first step my husband and I took, and it helped for us to be on the same page before we moved forward.

Given your history, a big question you might ask is whether your wife is capable of being 100% open and honest about her feelings and relationship information. Some people aren't for a variety of reasons, even when they have a supportive partner/no reason to hide things or lie.

You all are right that our relationship is far from being solid and trusting. But she has what she has now and I don't think shed be willing to quit it in order to work on us.

In my opinion and experience, these are your major issues. Poly requires honesty (even when it's extremely uncomfortable) and is a balancing act. I would never, ever devote time to a secondary relationship when my marriage wasn't solid. In fact, I have consciously chosen monogamy for the past 5 years because my marriage/family has required all of my time and attention to work. So, maybe there's another point of discussion for you two: Is she willing to back off/take a hiatus from a secondary relationship to work on your marriage if you two are having trouble and headed down a road that will ultimately lead to divorce?

She's asking me to try to be okay with it, even though she says she doesn't really know what this is with this other woman. She says it hasn't gone to sex this time (thank god, because she also disclosed one night that this other woman has herpes)...its just deeply emotional.

Does that bother you, that she has a deeply emotional connection with someone else?

Like others have said, I don't think you can create rules or limits on emotions. They're not tangible, or something people can change or avoid. Many couples certainly have rules regarding time (e.g. "One date night or overnight per week/month with the secondary partner"), but I've never heard of a poly couple successfully putting rules on the emotional depth of a relationship. Those who do set themselves up for disappointment and failure, quite frankly.

In my experience, it's quite typical for women to connect with each other on different emotional levels. *I* certainly don't just want a light friendship + sex with another woman, ever. I want to connect emotionally, have a deeper friendship, and then if we also have a sexual connection, connect sexually as well. Sex with other women is more of an emotional/connected experience than sex with men for me. Also, just having a man present while I'm having sex with a woman totally changes the dynamic and experience for me; it doesn't allow me to feel that special connection that I enjoy so much. I don't know why that is, but it's been an important factor for me to recognize and discuss with my husband.

So, if you move forward, you may just have to take her connection with other women for what it is, and focus on the connection you have with your wife when you're together vs. being concerned about how she's feeling/connecting with another woman.

I'm somewhat inclined to think that she's more on the side of being lesbian than bisexual, but has a paralyzing fear of what that would mean as far as how her family would react and treat her.

Well, I think all you can do with that is decide whether you want to be in a relationship with someone who might be more on the lesbian side of the spectrum. I know that I've moved a couple of notches toward that side in the past few years for a host of reasons, although I certainly still find men attractive. I'd hypothesize that when some bisexual women become moms, the more nurturing and emotional side of other women may become more attractive. These days, I spend most of my life nurturing my young son and husband, yet I don't get a whole lot of that kind of TLC in return, so sure I'm even more attracted to other nurturers (most of whom happen to be other women) than I was when I didn't have a kid.

So what are some acceptable boundaries for me to ask for? I don't want to be asking something of her that would be considered impossible standards.

Again, I think researching poly and considering what's critical and desirable for you to be happy will help you answer this. I think it's utterly reasonable to have boundaries regarding time, safer sex and STI testing, pregnancy (if either of you were ever to have a partner of the opposite sex), what info will & won't be shared (some want every detail, others want more of a don't ask/don't tell policy), what each of you agree to if/when there's a problem in your relationship, whether there will be veto power (and in which situations that might apply, e.g., can you veto her having any type of sexual contact with a partner who has an STI, or is interested in someone who is involved in something that you have a fundamental moral objection to?), how you'll work around your kids, time you will devote to your marriage, how you'd deal with lying/cheating behaviors, meeting secondary partners, what to do if one of you would like to change a rule... well, I'm sure you get the picture. Some of those are more 'what ifs' than rules, but I think both are important to discuss, agree upon and abide by.

On a side note, one of the reasons (other than the fact that I love my wife dearly despite her hurting me so much) that I want things to work, are because of our little girls. I'm active duty and currently (possibly) up for a commission if I get accepted to the program I've applied to, which would basically mean a full 20 years on active duty (I'm at 7). I know that is an extreme rarity for a judge to grant majority custody to a service member and if they do, the first deployment that almost always gets revoked and given to the other parent. I cannot stand the thought of losing those girls and being a very minimal part of their life for the next 13 years. So please don't just act like its a simple solution to just leave her and move on.

Divorce is never a simple solution, especially when there are kids involved. Often it's the best option for everyone when a couple can't find common ground, but that still doesn't make it easy. Honestly, I'd suggest talking to a good family law attorney who has a lot of experience with service members, just so you have a good idea of your options and likely outcomes if your marriage doesn't work out. If you can, you might see if you can get your wife's thoughts on this, too - what does her picture of co-parenting look like if you both decide it's not best to stay married? Anyway, it's a possible outcome you need to investigate, given your wife's history.

Another thought that I'd advocate investigating is the possibility of you having other relationships. What IF your communication and sexual relationship with your wife doesn't improve? Would you two be able to remain married, yet in an entirely open relationship, where you're both free to have your physical and emotional needs met elsewhere?

 

[monoblanco]

John, take this for whatever it's worth...

Based on your various posts, it's clear that your wife has betrayed you. She has lied and been disloyal. You have every right to be not only jealous, but also furious. You said she hid things from you, went behind your back, deceived you.

It seems to me that she doesn't deserve and has not earned the love and respect (and maybe trust?) that you clearly have for her.

One person mentioned childishness and I think that's absolutely accurate. What I hear from you, is that she wants what she wants and expects you to deliver (or accept) and she is far less concerned with helping to find a way to ALSO give you what you want and need. In spite of the fact that she made a commitment to a family WITH YOU just like you did.

That doesn't sound to me like an adult relationship. And it definitely doesn't sound like a committed marriage. Monogamous or otherwise.

Of course, we haven't heard her side of things and there's almost certainly more going on here than just what you've described, but it sounds like you've gone well beyond trying to meet her halfway and she hasn't even come close.

Fidelity is negotiable (for some people). And it sounds like you're trying to work through that.

But loyalty is not. What I hear in your posts is that she has been disloyal. To you. To your marriage. AND therefore, to your children.

She gave you an ultimatum.

How would she react if you were to stand up for yourself and give her one?

How will she react years from now when her children do?

 

[DeceptiveSpeed]

Another book I'd recommend is 'The Ethical Slut' that helped my wife and I a lot when we started dabbling in swinging and poly. Also some of Dan Savage's Lovecasts as well. Good luck.

 

[Que]

First off, I'd like to introduce myself. My name is John. I've frequented this forum on and off for a few years now. I've come to find that some of you are probably the most sexually enlightened people and some of the most understanding when someone has a real question that they would like help with. I honestly can't think of a group of people more equipped to help me with my current situation.

So, my wife and I got married about 7 years ago and have been having difficulties on and off throughout our marriage. One of these difficulties has been her sexuality and how much she's been hiding it. As you can gather from the title, she is bisexual.

When we got married she explained it away as kind of just an "experimental phase," but nothing that she was interested in doing at the moment. Well, over the past few years she's had sexual relationships with a few women.

I've tried being okay with it, but it always turned into more of an emotional and sexual relationship than her just fooling around with them. I'm not going to lie, it made me pretty jealous, especially when it was always first starting out with this new person because my wife tends to have the "shiny new toy" effect. She spends more and more time with them and less and less with me and our physical intimacy tends to fade during these times.

The last one ended and I kinda thought she was done with that for a while with all the stress it caused our marriage and the fact that she got extremely hurt by this other girl.

About a month ago I happened to find out that she was having another relationship with a new girl. It was different this time because, being military and far away from home, we kind of found another family that became our new "away from home" family. Our kids got along and we all got along great. I had even opened up to the wife in this couple about some things that we had gone through with the past and how much it hurt me when she kept these relationships a secret, and she listened and even promised me one night that I had nothing to worry about with her and she wasn't bisexual at all and that they were just really good friends and related to each other really well and that she would never do that me.

Turns out they did. I approached my wife about it, with her friend present. We had a very long talk about her hiding it and her sexuality and her fears of being outed to her family. I offered, that if she wasn't bisexual but was, in fact, a lesbian, that i would never hold it against her. However, it would be unfair to continue a marriage with me and deprive me of finding someone that could love me. I offered my full support in whatever she had to deal with that might come along with coming out and she cried for a long time (as well as her "girlfriend"(and i parenthesize because she can't really explain to me what she is) sitting in the back crying).

The night ended with her telling me that chooses us and our marriage (as well as some pretty great sex following going to bed...definitely didn't see that coming).

A few days later she tells me that for us to work, I need to be okay with her and her "friend" still remaining close friends. Well, what she actually meant was different than what I thought it meant. She has since explained that she chose us as a constant, and that wherever I go, she will always follow. I thought she meant just friends, thats it. Being that it was what I thought, and it turned out different, I got pretty jealous, as she was still cuddling and what not and being the exact same way as before I had found out about them.

This peaked in a huge argument and she's given me an ultimatum....be okay with this side of her, or end the marriage.

I love this woman to death and we have two beautiful little girls that adore the both of us. I'm torn as to what to do, because I'm afraid that if I agree its going to be all give from me and all take from her, her way or the highway.

I've read a few articles and I WANT to be able to do it, I just am not quite sure how. How to deal with an arising jealousy from within, and maybe what kind of boundaries, if any, I should request from her, at least while I get used to the idea. I've thought of asking, for starters, that she never ever hides one of these relationships from me again.

Another thing, is that I want her to try to, at the very least, equalize how much she puts into the relationships, instead of the fading affection that has been present (such as the 3-4 months at a time we go without any sex or physical intimacy).

Also, that it will NEVER EVER be another guy (I'm willing to go through all this working on myself because of her bisexuality and trying to best as understanding as i possibly can, but that one I CANNOT deal with).

Those along with some other things that I feel like she can do better to help me learn to accept all of this (such as stop with bringing up divorce or us not working every single time we get into an argument). Keep in mind, I want very much to be with my wife, when we're good, we're great. I just have a hard time keeping my mind from racing to the worst that she's seeking affection elsewhere because of a shortcoming on my end.


I've been known to be sensitive in the sense that I my feelings can be easily hurt (Ive been reading about whats referred to as "highly sensitive people" and am beginning to think I may fit quite well into that classification). All that being said, thank you for reading, please offer me whatever advice you can.......and be easy on me ;-)

I reformatted to, I hope, make it easier for people to find salient points. I made bold the things that I think people may want to comment on, and that you may want to consider. Tried not to lean my edit either way.

One thing that stood out to me is our passivity.

I don't know your back-ground or the way you present to other people. I don't know if the sensitivity you describe (and that is apparent anyway) is of the "wear it on your sleeve" openly sort of thing, or if you tend to internalize (bottle it up.)

No matter what you decide, my gut says that for whatever reason, you are not in a place emotionally that you can make a healthy decision about this or probably a lot of things. No matter how this goes, I can tell you with confidence that there will be pain involved and you do not seem equipped to deal with that. Reaching out here is a good sign that you are open to getting help.

You are asking for help with a specific symptom. The stress your wife's chosen behaviors and her way in relating to you are putting you under stress. That is not the underlying problem in my view.

There are reasons that you were attracted to this particular woman and why you still are. Some of those things might be healthy, some of those things might not be. The problem, I think, is one of self-esteem. Is that more apparent because you are raw, now? Sure. But I suspect the problem predates her, and if you do not seek quality help, that problem will remain when and if she is gone.

It affects how she interacts with you and in ways that are not important at the moment the level of attraction she feels for you. One can be gentle, sensitive, compassionate, and still be a strong person and demonstrate that strength.

You mentioned the military so I am guessing you have to internalize a lot of this. You need to find a counselor for you. try a session with ore than one if you feel unable to open up completely to the counselor as you have here. You need to start building a better, stronger you. Work on giving yourself permission to have hobbies or interests that fulfill you and do not involve her. She more than has her me time and at a minimum should support any activity that fulfills you.

I would strongly advise against any sort of arrangement where you are free to browse also, because for one it will ad layers of emotion you are not ready for and two, in your fragile state you will experience a lot of rejection. I am very glad to be long past that phase myself. It does get better.

You work on you. Lift weights, runs, build or repair some manly stuff. Become the best, most interesting person you can be. Do it for you, regardless the eventual outcome. Maybe it has an effect on how she sees and appreciates you, maybe not. If this ends you want to be ready and able to find and attract women that suit you with confidence.

Women, generally speaking, grieve the loss of the relationship while in the relationship. Hence the stereotype of the gay divorcee no pun intended. You have suggested feelings of culpability in the decline of your marriage. This is normal, probably healthy to look at, and may or may not be at all true. The relationship you describe is dying on the vine, and your wife is both growing in her own way and will be ready to go at anytime, leaving your dumbstruck if she does.

You need to be prepared. Get healthier. Get some boundaries in place, that means on your end. What you will tolerate in silence, what you will not. Not to be defeatist but ask around, find the best two divorce lawyers. Pay each of them $50 for a consult. Pay in cash, do not leave any records around. Find out what your rights are as a father in your state and what sort of financial arrangements are fair and appropriate for your kids in case the worst. She has used divorce threats as a weapon. She has thought about it. You need to calmly know what that looks like at a time when you, yourself are not contemplating it. Find out about fees and have that amount available to you at a moment's notice and never bring it up.

Look at your finances with a critical eye. Start a system of her account, your account and a joint account. Practice being fair. Who should contribute what? If you are the sole breadwinner, place the portion that is needed for the family in the joint account, split the remainder into his and hers to do as you each please to practice that.

Also, start flirting. You need the practice and it improves your vibe with your wife. You need to start to believe that you are a man with options. It will build confidence and confidence is sexy.

 

[Felix_Jones]

Seriously man. Get a divorce, they're expensive because they're worth it.

 

[jfowl19830]

Sorry I've been absent for a few days, but thank you all for the sound advice. I wish I could say I know what to do now, but I still have a lot to think about before I make any major decisions. But before I go, if anybody even knows, is there a database of non traditional marriage type counselors? She's refused regular marriage counseling, but if they specialized in these types of relationships maybe she would reconsider...I mean, if there's even one in the relative area. Thanks for all that you guys do and have a merry Christmas and happy new year.

 

[NightL]

Check out sex therapists in your area. They will have trained in relationship counselling as well yet likely to be a little more open to non-traditional relationships.

Perhaps make an appointment for yourself first and discuss with the therapist your aims, goals, then evaluate them against what you believe your partner's may be and what degree of compromise you would willingly accept. With a little more knowledge of your own wishes and that of the therapist then go back to your partner. You could suggest she attends by herself first as well. Clarify your thoughts for the future individually before coming together seeking compatibility and discussing support or compromise.