So when is this "Honest" discussion regarding race relations goint to occur?

[Sean Renaud]

Whatever it costs. The purpose of government is to secure the liberties of the civil society. Those who demonstrate a continued threat to those liberties ought to be put away for life, or put down, one or the two. Why the fuck should we tolerate a known criminal element actively preying on the helpless and weak in society?

The purpose of government is to improve the lives of the governed you ninny. Yes securing the liberties is part of it but this civil society you like to bring up is a construct you refuse to define. I have no problem with putting down threats but in this case the real threats are the rules setting up the program aydou know it.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Why the fuck should we tolerate a known criminal element actively preying on the helpless and weak in society?

Because we have already tried not tolerating it, and the results -- a low crime rate, combined with the world's largest incarcerated population proportionate to the total population -- are even worse than the high crime rate we had to put up with before all this get-tough shit started.

 

[Ishmael]

That's not what I'm saying. Being poor is a path to being a criminal. Being hopeless is too. We can't just pick one factor. Because it's different strokes for different folk. I wish I knew how to explain things. There is a lot of reasons running through my mind, I just can't type them. I'm more of a talker than a writer.

Smooth, that may not have been what you meant but it is what you said. And the path to being a criminal is wanting things that you can't afford whether you need them or not and not being willing to take the time to work for them. There's plenty enough of 'white collar' crime out there being perpetrated by folks that are NOT poor, they just can't control their impulses.

You speak of the 'flash', bling, etc. Over 90% of that shit is going to end up at Goodwill or a landfill in 3 years if not sooner, and people are willing to risk their lives for that? When you sit back and think about do you realize how silly that is? And if that's what it takes to be looked up to in your neighborhood, I'd tell you to get the hell out of the hood.

Invest in yourself, get an education. Whatever interests you, a skilled trade, business, whatever. Buying that crap that passes for flash is only making someone else richer...............and they won't be going to jail for selling it.

Ishmael

 

[Joeybagadonuts]

Whatever it costs. The purpose of government is to secure the liberties of the civil society. Those who demonstrate a continued threat to those liberties ought to be put away for life, or put down, one or the two. Why the fuck should we tolerate a known criminal element actively preying on the helpless and weak in society?

I don't believe that I said that we should allow known criminals to to prey on others. But this gets to the root of what bothers me. You me and everyone else deserve to live without fear of being preyed upon by criminals. But the problem is that all that most people want to know is that a criminal was removed. No one wants to know about the cost or if the government we expect to deal with this problem is dealing with it in a way that makes us all safer or in the end, more vulnerable.

The way, we are doing things now is not only not good for minorities, it doesn't work for anyone. At present, we take people out of society, make them worse and release them back into society. Other than executions for drug dealers, do you have any other solutions to the problem?

 

[Sean Renaud]

Smooth, that may not have been what you meant but it is what you said. And the path to being a criminal is wanting things that you can't afford whether you need them or not and not being willing to take the time to work for them. There's plenty enough of 'white collar' crime out there being perpetrated by folks that are NOT poor, they just can't control their impulses.

You speak of the 'flash', bling, etc. Over 90% of that shit is going to end up at Goodwill or a landfill in 3 years if not sooner, and people are willing to risk their lives for that? When you sit back and think about do you realize how silly that is? And if that's what it takes to be looked up to in your neighborhood, I'd tell you to get the hell out of the hood.

Invest in yourself, get an education. Whatever interests you, a skilled trade, business, whatever. Buying that crap that passes for flash is only making someone else richer...............and they won't be going to jail for selling it.

Ishmael

Are you really not listening that much to the repeated statement that it's a complex combination of socio-economic factors?

As for flash and bling how exactly is that any different from Armani and Versacci? When you sit back and think about it how silly is that I need to show up in a suit to do a desk job where nobody but my coworkers will ever see me? It would be one thing if I was going out in the field or something.

Invest WHAT in yourself. You keep speaking like the privileged upper middle or true upper clase where that's an option.

 

[unregistered]

 

[unregistered]

 

[Joeybagadonuts]

Life in prison for three time losers, death penalty for a fourth, even if committed in prison.

If you had to choose between that and tax brakes for the 1%, which would you choose?

 

[possum123]

Do you differentiate between lawful protesters and the criminals who burn and loot?

I do. Too bad they usually go along with each other.
The lawful protestors will welcome the criminals as it gets more attention that way.
Guess I don't differentiate between them.
My mistake.

 

[unregistered]

 

[Ishmael]

I do. Too bad they usually go along with each other.
The lawful protestors will welcome the criminals as it gets more attention that way.
Guess I don't differentiate between them.
My mistake.

Not necessarily true. The criminals will mix in with the peaceful folks to try to give themselves cover. And the true radicals do it with the goal of inciting the police to over react and thus radicalize a few more to join the 'movement.' It's a tried and true technique, they even teach it as part of the radical demonstration indoctrination. It's a cheap and effective recruitment technique.

Ishmael

 

[Joeybagadonuts]

So anyway, I was saying that Nixon started the alleged drug war as a way to marginalize African Americans.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

We haven't even begun to get tough. It takes 17 years to have the death penalty carried out in my state. It ought to take one trip to the state Supreme Court, one trip to federal court with one habeas corpus claim, and your ass is done.

We need to crank up the production of the many clogged death rows to the level of what we see in Texas at the very least.

Its odd how the litany of common and expected appeals are stretched out over a score of years, when they could be adjudicated at one hearing, as theyre the same appeals all use. But each takes about a year to schedule. Job security for mediocre lawyers.

 

[Ishmael]

So anyway, I was saying that Nixon started the alleged drug war as a way to marginalize African Americans.

Really? You were there? I was.

It was white kids, the baby boomers, doing the weed, LSD, Mescaline, Psilocybin, cocaine, bennies, meth, qualudes, seconol, huffing ethyl chloride, popping amy's, etc. And it wasn't the blacks making it or selling it.

Ishmael

 

[JohnnySavage]

We haven't even begun to get tough. It takes 17 years to have the death penalty carried out in my state. It ought to take one trip to the state Supreme Court, one trip to federal court with one habeas corpus claim, and your ass is done.

We need to crank up the production of the many clogged death rows to the level of what we see in Texas at the very least.

That's true. China is #1 in executions and we are #2. We need to step up our game!

 

[unregistered]

 

[unregistered]

 

[Joeybagadonuts]

Really? You were there? I was.

It was white kids, the baby boomers, doing the weed, LSD, Mescaline, Psilocybin, cocaine, bennies, meth, qualudes, seconol, huffing ethyl chloride, popping amy's, etc. And it wasn't the blacks making it or selling it.

Ishmael

"Look, we understood we couldn't make it illegal to be young or poor or black in the United States, but we could criminalize their common pleasure. We understood that drugs were not the health problem we were making them out to be, but it was such a perfect issue...that we couldn't resist it."

- John Ehrlichman, White House counsel to President Nixon on the rationale of the War on Drugs.
- See more at: http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2...argeting-counter-culture#sthash.5FOJeAjO.dpuf

 

[Joeybagadonuts]

"[Nixon] emphasized that you have to face the fact that the whole problem is really the blacks" Haldeman, his Chief of Staff wrote, "The key is to devise a system that recognizes this while not appearing to." - See more at: http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2...argeting-counter-culture#sthash.dXRqE4UN.dpuf

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Really? You were there? I was.

It was white kids, the baby boomers, doing the weed, LSD, Mescaline, Psilocybin, cocaine, bennies, meth, qualudes, seconol, huffing ethyl chloride, popping amy's, etc. And it wasn't the blacks making it or selling it.

Ishmael

This is old ground.

The Democrats started the war on drugs at the turn of the last century. Nixon just gave it a name, Reagan gave it a catch-phrase and on the local level, outside of the highly urban centers of the nation, it is just as popular with Democrat politicians as it is with Republican because it is a cheap and easy way to show that you are tough on crime, which some people here equate as being tough on the "darkies."

Infantile mindset. My team is better than your team! He did too cross the gaol line! THAT WAS A BAD CALL!!!

 

[Sean Renaud]

That's true. China is #1 in executions and we are #2. We need to step up our game!

Wait, when did we get passed?

Remember during the 90s, it was the brilliant Maxine Waters who claimed that cocaine was a CIA mastermind plot to destroy inner-city black America.

Was she ever proven wrong?

 

[Ishmael]

"[Nixon] emphasized that you have to face the fact that the whole problem is really the blacks" Haldeman, his Chief of Staff wrote, "The key is to devise a system that recognizes this while not appearing to." - See more at: http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2...argeting-counter-culture#sthash.dXRqE4UN.dpuf

Did you read the whole article?

Nixon and his regime were freaked over heroin. They saw every drug, with the possible exception of aspirin, as a gateway drug to heroin use. And heroin was most definitely the drug of choice within the black community. The mob controlled it, the blacks were the market. (I don't know if that is still true today, the heroin use that is.)

But the fact is that the democrats, presidents and congress, have had ample opportunity to correct the law and they haven't. So you can blame Nixon as the originator but there is NO WAY you can hold the democrats blameless in the continuation of that policy. They are just as complicit as he was.

Ishmael

 

[Joeybagadonuts]

Did you read the whole article?

Nixon and his regime were freaked over heroin. They saw every drug, with the possible exception of aspirin, as a gateway drug to heroin use. And heroin was most definitely the drug of choice within the black community. The mob controlled it, the blacks were the market. (I don't know if that is still true today, the heroin use that is.)

But the fact is that the democrats, presidents and congress, have had ample opportunity to correct the law and they haven't. So you can blame Nixon as the originator but there is NO WAY you can hold the democrats blameless in the continuation of that policy. They are just as complicit as he was.

Ishmael

What makes you think that I'm a Democrat? I am contemptuous of most politicians and both major political parties. But the fact remains that it was Nixon and his bias towards blacks that started the alleged war on drugs.

 

[Joeybagadonuts]

but, but, but what about those statements from the Nixon administration admitting to creating the drug war as an a excuse to marginalize African Americans?

Fuck the Democrats who went along with the program. But why not admit that the war on drugs was initiated as a war on blacks by Nixon?

You do know that Erlichman and Haldeman were at the top of the Nixon administration, don't you?

 

[RjThoughts]

but, but, but what about those statements from the Nixon administration admitting to creating the drug war as an a excuse to marginalize African Americans?

Fuck the Democrats who went along with the program. But why not admit that the war on drugs was initiated as a war on blacks by Nixon?

You do know that Erlichman and Haldeman were at the top of the Nixon administration, don't you?

It's a simple case of hero worship. They can't admit that the war on drugs de facto start begun under Dick.