Opening with Dialog

[MSTarot]

I can't say that I agree with you on this. The first parts of any story has to have one thing. A hook. Something to catch the interest of the reader.

Catch it and hold onto it tightly.

Dialog, the right dialog, is wonderful at that... for a percentage of the readers. How much of a percent varies though. It's personal preference.

I'm going to sound like an old fogey when I say this but I think some of the younger generations are a bit more action driven. They want the race horse out the gate in that very first sentence. They are the go, go, go people. The text on the go culture. Dialog works well for some of them.

A big block of words to start a story is equally a book-killer... to some people.

With the stories I write I do a mixture. Dialog, narrative, exposition. It really depends on the story and what I want to say.

If I want a story to begin with dialog, then that is what will be there. Because "I" wanted it that way.

If it's not popular so be it. It's the story I wanted to tell. I'm not trying to get paid here. There is no agent wanting his part, no publishing house demanding a rewrite. No one to tell me how, when, were, or what the hell I can and will write.

The site can tell me what they wont post. Yes.

The readers can tell me what they don't like. True.

A publishing house can tell me what they wont buy. Oh, absolutely.

But the fact is so long as one person tells me they liked my story (whether it thrilled them or chilled them, teased or taunted, left them hot, or nauseous) I'm more than happy.

Just one.

Because that one person will remember my story. Remember what they felt when they read it. The emotions I stirred.

That is my payment with every Literotica story I write. To grab a heart string (or a G-string) and give it a tug.


{part two of this rant}

What did this or that best selling author do? I could care less. Every word of theirs you have read has been run through a money filter. "Will this make us money?"

There are best selling authors that are terrible. That best selling book is often not their best work. Not even close. It's often nothing but a photocopy of a story they have already written that sold well. The same book, over and over. the same story over and over.

How many authors has it been said of that their first book was their best effort? Why?

Surely they got better with age and learning? They honed their craft? So why is that first book their best? Because they were still in love with writing then, not with the pay check it brings.

They were not trying to sell a story, they were trying to tell one.


Which is all I'm trying to do.

MST

 

[sr71plt]

I probably use it most of the time. I think it works just fine. I go after the readers who want to jump right in and be engaged--and want to be part of figuring the story out.

 

[sr71plt]

A big block of dialog to start a story is equally a book-killer... to some people.

But where did "a big block of dialogue" get introduced into this equation? That wasn't part of the original issue. The issue is any piece of dialogue at all.

I doubt that starting off with a big block of anything is a good idea.

 

[MSTarot]

But where did "a big block of dialogue" get introduced into this equation?

Sorry, that would be my dyslexia putting the wrong words in the wrong place. I had the word exposition in mind and dialog is what my hands typed.



And yes starting a story with a big block of anything is not a great idea.

Unless it's marble and your writing about a sculptor.

 

[JKendallDane]

So do you think this is the only technique one should use sparingly? I mean, if you do in fact use this sparingly, then what about the techniques you're left with? Should you use those sparingly as well?

I don't mean to make it a trademark of mine, or to bore readers, but I find to a great extent I simply can't help starting stories this way. When a story comes to me, or I start putting it together or whatever, it seems that 90%+ of the time, the line I start with is spoken dialogue.

I guess I just don't quite see why one should do this "sparingly," and then -- and I'm probably inferring here -- I wonder what other techniques you think one could or should use more often.

I'm obviously not expressing myself well. Sorry.

I am a voracious reader and tend to get tunnel-visioned into spurts of only reading one author's books for weeks and months at a time. For example, if all of John Grisham's novels used the exact same introductory hook each time, it would become somewhat predictable and boring to me. Same with Clancy, Cussler, Patterson, Gerritsen, Cook, Critchton, et al.

That's not what we run into as much though here at Lit with the typical short stories that are written and posted. Readers pop around to various ones offered by various authors. True, when one author catches their attention sufficiently, they may run through two or three of their stories consecutively, but I doubt if they stay completely focused on one author's collection of works for a month or two at a time, but rather fav the author and come back to check out other stories of theirs later.

If primarily using dialog as your opening works for you both personally and with scoring and feedback from the readers...great! I'm not suggesting a change from what is comfortable for you and isn't broken. It just isn't something that works for me on a large scale due mainly to the way my plot lines tend to run. Plus, I like to mix it up for my regular fan base.

Course maybe I haven't stretched myself enough yet, to prove myself wrong on that.

 

[JKendallDane]

But the fact is so long as one person tells me they liked my story (whether it thrilled them or chilled them, teased or taunted, left them hot, or nauseous) I'm more than happy.

Just one.

Because that one person will remember my story. Remember what they felt when they read it. The emotions I stirred.

That is my payment with every Literotica story I write. To grab a heart string (or a G-string) and give it a tug.

I am soooooo gonna appropriate that if you'll accept as payment!

Just yesterday I had a long phone conversation with a high school friend I had reconnected with after nearly forty years thanks to Facebook. He had read a couple of my stories the night before and brought up the topic of my "smut writing career" by saying: "You're really good and at least it's a few extra bucks in your pocket. How well does that website pay you for your stories?"

I wish I had had your words, MST, to answer with, because they are much better than the one I came up with on the spur of the moment.

 

[TxRad]

If you can open a conversation with dialog, why not a story. A story after all is a conversation with the reader in many ways.

A storytellers point of view.

 

[RoyceConnors]

If you can open a conversation with dialog, why not a story. A story after all is a conversation with the reader in many ways.

A storytellers point of view.

I agree. Like 1st POV or 3rdPOV, it depends a lot on the story and how it's going to be told. The conversation could be the key to it all, or the thread that holds the story together. As long as the conversation isn't dragging on or boring, you shouldn't have any trouble starting off with it. A bit of scene description with it goes a long way in setting it up the way you want it to play out.

 

[TxRad]

I agree. Like 1st POV or 3rdPOV, it depends a lot on the story and how it's going to be told. The conversation could be the key to it all, or the thread that holds the story together. As long as the conversation isn't dragging on or boring, you shouldn't have any trouble starting off with it. A bit of scene description with it goes a long way in setting it up the way you want it to play out.

I've used it in the past to say a lot about the character with very few words. It puts a picture in the readers mind and that's half the battle.

 

[Rozalin_0123]

But the fact is so long as one person tells me they liked my story (whether it thrilled them or chilled them, teased or taunted, left them hot, or nauseous) I'm more than happy.

Just one.

Because that one person will remember my story. Remember what they felt when they read it. The emotions I stirred.

That is my payment with every Literotica story I write. To grab a heart string (or a G-string) and give it a tug.

MST

This is exactly how I felt after writing my story. I tried my hardest to make a quality story, one that wasn't the same rehashed thing despite it being focused on a very tired concept (Succubi). I had little confidence in my writing. Since posting it, I've had 31 people come forward with overwhelming praise in the comments. I even had a couple of authors who frequent the AH contact me saying they really enjoyed my work.

At this point I feel like I won the freakin' lottery

Incidentally, it started with dialog. A very brief exchange between the main character and a bartender I didn't even bother to name.

 

[Swilly]

I just realized I started mine with dialogue too. And I thought I was being so original.

 

[Carnal_Flower]

"Hey Jason, are you serious?"

"What do you mean?"

"I'm not going there!"

"Oh, come on!"

Now that's bad opening dialogue. Dialogue is perfectly fine as long as it begins the story. But just starting randomly with no explanation is assaultive to the reader. I'll click off.

 

[sr71plt]

Of course just because you (or anyone else) just clicks out of something doesn't mean it was a bad story--just one that doesn't satisfy your preferences. I think a good story could be made out of that opening. It's only four short sentences.

Again, for readers who want to engage, they don't need everything (or even a lot) laid out for them from the beginning.

Even though I usually start off with dialogue or in the middle of action, I interlace that with bits and pieces of other "set-up" information. It doesn't have to be pure dialogue even if it's starting with dialogue.

 

[Carnal_Flower]

lol ok . . . call it a personal preference. . . and no, it doesn't mean it's bad.

Of course just because you (or anyone else) just clicks out of something doesn't mean it was a bad story--just one that doesn't satisfy your preferences. I think a good story could be made out of that opening. It's only four short sentences.

Again, for readers who want to engage, they don't need everything (or even a lot) laid out for them from the beginning.

Even though I usually start off with dialogue or in the middle of action, I interlace that with bits and pieces of other "set-up" information. It doesn't have to be pure dialogue even if it's starting with dialogue.

 

[Rozalin_0123]

The first few paragraphs of my story:

"You want to order a drink, or are you going to just sit there all night?"

The female bartender's abrupt outburst snapped Cole from his trance.

"Oh! Yeah, sorry. I'll have a Coke, please."

The bartender gave Cole a peculiar look. "You came to this club to sit at the bar alone, stare at people, and order soft drinks? Not the usual thing attractive men do here on a busy Friday night."

Attractive? Cole never thought of himself as attractive. She wasn't the first to think so, however, whether he knew it or not. He was in his mid 30's, tall, short dark hair, muscular body, and strong jaw with a five-o'clock shadow. Okay, maybe he was attractive, but was it too obvious that he had been spending all his time observing the jam packed dance floor?

"I have to be at work in a few hours. Can't go in hammered, can I?"

The bartender smiled, nodding in agreement. She turned to fetch him a Coke.

Unknown to her, Cole was already at work. A member of Chicago Police Department's Bureau of Detectives, he was investigating a recent series of disappearances of young women in their late teens and early twenties, all of whom were described as very attractive. Their disappearances were believed to be linked to a long running sex trade organization with hubs in major cities around the country. He traced the missing women's last known locations to a night club near Chicago's industrial district.

(More exposition follows)

Not sure if this comes across as bad, but I think it works.

 

[PennLady]

"Hey Jason, are you serious?"

"What do you mean?"

"I'm not going there!"

"Oh, come on!"

Now that's bad opening dialogue. Dialogue is perfectly fine as long as it begins the story. But just starting randomly with no explanation is assaultive to the reader. I'll click off.

That's not bad dialogue, particularly; I'd keep reading. I don't feel it's assaulting me. I have felt far more pummeled by stories that start with a lot of exposition, description, background info, names, etc.

Also I have to say I find your post a little curious. You say dialogue is fine "as long as it begins" the story. Then, "just starting randomly" is bad. Well, isn't it always starting randomly, with characters in the middle of a situation that you don't know about? I think this is a fine start to a story, and it could be continued with some scene setting or other description, or even more dialogue.

So yes, it's a lot to do with personal preference.

 

[sr71plt]

lol ok . . . call it a personal preference. . . and no, it doesn't mean it's bad.

It's . . . just . . . that a whole lot of folks here have a tendency to equate personal preference with "rules for writing."

 

[PennLady]

The first few paragraphs of my story:

"You want to order a drink, or are you going to just sit there all night?"

The female bartender's abrupt outburst snapped Cole from his trance.

"Oh! Yeah, sorry. I'll have a Coke, please."

<snip>

Not sure if this comes across as bad, but I think it works.

It works just fine. I open stories similarly; here's the beginning of "Who Cares what I Wear?"

"Come on, Em. You should come to the party. Everyone's going to be there, and they miss you."

Emily Pearson closed her eyes and tightened her grip on the phone. "I don't know, Sharon. I'm really not in a party mood."

"Em, I know you miss him. I know it's been hard. But you can't hide forever."

"I'm not, I just...I just don't know if I feel like it."

"Okay, you've given me no choice." Sharon adopted a no-nonsense tone and Emily had to smile. "I've been nice, given you lots of time, but I have to draw the line. If you're not at the party by ten o'clock, I'll come and drag you over myself."

Emily chuckled. "You and what army, McLochlan?"

I haven't started a story with just lines of dialogues exchanged with no tags or or other info, but there's no reason you can't.

 

[Carnal_Flower]

Not at all.

"Hey Jason, are you serious?" tells me nothing. It's random. It's throwing me in the midst of a situation and telling me to fend for myself.

""Hey Jason, are you serious?" SAID Jane, as she threw her brother's cell phone at him.

One has no context, characters or explanation. The other does. One is "random," the other is not.

A lot of modern/postmodern works deliberately start with confusion, randomness and no explanation whatsoever. For example, the beginning of Beloved.

Fine. I don't mind it there. I don't like it for the most part in what is supposed to be readable erotica.

That's not bad dialogue, particularly; I'd keep reading. I don't feel it's assaulting me. I have felt far more pummeled by stories that start with a lot of exposition, description, background info, names, etc.

Also I have to say I find your post a little curious. You say dialogue is fine "as long as it begins" the story. Then, "just starting randomly" is bad. Well, isn't it always starting randomly, with characters in the middle of a situation that you don't know about? I think this is a fine start to a story, and it could be continued with some scene setting or other description, or even more dialogue.

So yes, it's a lot to do with personal preference.

 

[PennLady]

Not at all.

"Hey Jason, are you serious?" tells me nothing. It's random. It's throwing me in the midst of a situation and telling me to fend for myself.

Again I suppose we're back to personal preferences, because when I see something like that, I want to know more, and so I keep reading. I would guess -- and I might be wrong -- that the context will be presented shortly and so I will keep reading.

""Hey Jason, are you serious?" SAID Jane, as she threw her brother's cell phone at him.

One has no context, characters or explanation. The other does. One is "random," the other is not.

The straight up, "Hey, Jason, are you serious?" quote does give you information -- there is at least one person (Jason could be talking to himself), and probably two. Jason has done something that has someone questioning his intentions.

I don't see the bit with Jane making it less random or giving it more context than the first example. I've got slightly more information, granted, but that info doesn't tell me anything. Who is Jane? Why is she throwing a phone? And I'm still left with what did Jason do? Is Jane mad at him, or joking with him? I'm still in the middle of a situation with no explanation, fending for myself. I still need to read ahead to find out what's going on, which I'd have to do even without the bit about Jane.

Fine. I don't mind it there. I don't like it for the most part in what is supposed to be readable erotica.

Well, and again, that's fine. We all have our preferences for reading whatever genre. As I said before, I don't like stories that have the "I/you" construction; I'll click right off as soon as I notice it. I also don't like flat out second-person narration.

I'm just saying that as far as opening a story goes, I don't particularly think a line of dialogue or even a conversation, with or without attributions, makes the story more or less readable than another type of beginning.

 

[sr71plt]

That would be an interesting FAWCK contest assignment. Each take that four line "Jason" dialogue as an opener and spin it out into any interesting story.

 

[SamScribble]

I have just finished reading a collection of short stories, about a third of which began with dialogue. And all bar two of the rest began with a first person 'discussion' with the reader - which, as someone has already pointed out, is really just another form of dialogue.

Unusually for me, I went on and read every story - right to the end.

I'm inclined to think that if a dialogue opening doesn't work, it's probably because the dialogue wasn't very well written.

 

[Carnal_Flower]

Perhaps I'm not being clear.

Since I only read Incest, I'll use that.

If I click on a story without a clear tagline, I'm already annoyed. Is it mom/son, dad/daughter, what?

If I then encounter dialogue without relationships specified then I'm really pissed.

Jane and her BROTHER, on the other hand, make it clear. Just voices does not make it clear. I don't know anything.

Throwing a phone says ok, brother and sister are having an argument. That's slim but it's enough of a context for ME, personally to go on.

On the other hand, and perhaps my lame example isn't clear, I run into example all the time of random conversations that drone on and on and all it does is make me mad. Especially when I know it often has to do with someone telling the writer at some time that "dialogue" makes a story good and I think they're trying to impress me or something.

Yes, it's me, and it's subjective. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Again I suppose we're back to personal preferences, because when I see something like that, I want to know more, and so I keep reading. I would guess -- and I might be wrong -- that the context will be presented shortly and so I will keep reading.



The straight up, "Hey, Jason, are you serious?" quote does give you information -- there is at least one person (Jason could be talking to himself), and probably two. Jason has done something that has someone questioning his intentions.

I don't see the bit with Jane making it less random or giving it more context than the first example. I've got slightly more information, granted, but that info doesn't tell me anything. Who is Jane? Why is she throwing a phone? And I'm still left with what did Jason do? Is Jane mad at him, or joking with him? I'm still in the middle of a situation with no explanation, fending for myself. I still need to read ahead to find out what's going on, which I'd have to do even without the bit about Jane.



Well, and again, that's fine. We all have our preferences for reading whatever genre. As I said before, I don't like stories that have the "I/you" construction; I'll click right off as soon as I notice it. I also don't like flat out second-person narration.

I'm just saying that as far as opening a story goes, I don't particularly think a line of dialogue or even a conversation, with or without attributions, makes the story more or less readable than another type of beginning.

 

[sr71plt]

Perhaps I'm not being clear.

Since I only read Incest, I'll use that.

If I click on a story without a clear tagline, I'm already annoyed. Is it mom/son, dad/daughter, what?

I think you're being clear, and as a personal preference, that's fine--for you. I don't have personal preferences that are that narrow and demanding, though--and I try to write to readers who will engage and make discoveries as we trot along together and who don't have narrow preconceived notions of what they expect to read or they will be annoyed at not receiving (which is probably why I don't even bother to look at the keyword list before reading a story). As a reader, I guess I'm more interested in finding new and unexpected material in the story I pick up, not my preconceived notions of what has to be there or I'll be annoyed.

 

[PayDay]

This thread seems like it was started by a high school English teacher.

You can do anything with words and open a story any way you want.

Also: If you are going by the 'rules of English and Writing' (rofl) then it still is a stupid thread.

Why? Open with a quote.