Does the minimum wage kill jobs?

[4est_4est_Gump]

Even proponents say, it kills jobs:

The economic case against minimum wage laws is simple. Employers pay a wage no higher than the value of an additional hour's work. Raising minimum wages forces employers to dismiss low productivity workers. This policy has the largest affect on those with the least education, job experience, and maturity. Consequently, we should expect minimum wage laws to affect teenagers and those with less education. Eliminating minimum wage laws would reduce unemployment and improve the efficiency of markets for low productivity labor.

There are a few economists who have been leading the charge for higher minimum wages. Some of these economists have obvious ideological leanings. Economists connected with the Left -orientated Economic Policy Institute and the Clinton Administration have concocted a rational for minimum wage increases. According to these economists higher wages make employees more content with their jobs, and this leads to higher worker productivity. Thus workers will be worth paying a minimum wage once their employers are forced to pay these wages. Of course, if this were true — if employers could get higher productivity out of less educated and experienced workers by paying higher wages — they would be willing to do this without minimum wage legislation. But the economists who make this case claim to have empirical evidence that proves them right. Economists David Card and Alan Krueger have published studies of the fast food industry indicated that small increases in the minimum wage would cause only minor job losses, and might even increase employment slightly in some instances. These studies by Card and Krueger show only that a small increase in minimum wage rates might not cause much of an increase in unemployment. Such studies ignore the fact that the current level of minimum wages are already causing significant unemployment for some workers.

The economic case for minimum wage increases has gained some ground with public and even professional opinion. Even some free market leaning economists, like Steven Landsburg, have conceded that minimum wages increases do not affect employment significantly.[2] Landsburg notes that critics of minimum wage laws emphasize that they have a disproportionate effect on teens and blacks. But he dismisses these critics because "minimum wages have at most a tiny impact on employment … The minimum wage kills very few jobs, and the jobs it kills were lousy jobs anyway. It is almost impossible to maintain the old argument that minimum wages are bad for minimum-wage workers."

http://mises.org/daily/2130

 

[RobDownSouth]

cool story, ziggy.
unfortunately you're not an economist. and many venerated and world-renowned economists disagree with your simplistic little breakdown. so maybe it's not as "fucking basic" as you would like to think.

"Wow, you sure refudiated HIM, Pete!" he said, his voice drippin' with sarcasm.

 

[pete]

"Wow, you sure refudiated HIM, Pete!" he said, his voice drippin' with sarcasm.

and yet its completely true.
its folly to present a simple anecdote and assume it addresses the entirety of a complex issue such as this. and then to so with condescension is an ignorant approach.

 

[RobDownSouth]

and yet its completely true.
its folly to present a simple anecdote and assume it addresses the entirety of a complex issue such as this. and then to so with condescension is an ignorant approach.

Oh, well, if it's TRUE...then...then...THAT'S DIFFERENT!

I agree with you actually that "Fallacy of the Small Sample" (known as "anecdata" here) deserves to be ridiculed. I, in turn, was ridiculing your nebulous "appeal to authority" hoo-ha. "Many experts say...."

Works both ways, no?

 

[pete]

appeal to authority would apply if i'm asserting a position, i'm only rebutting with an accepted premise. there's no dispute that experts do disagree with his position.

 

[RobDownSouth]

appeal to authority would apply if i'm asserting a position, i'm only rebutting with an accepted premise. there's no dispute that experts do disagree with his position.

Many experts would say that you are incorrect. There's no dispute about that.

Hey.....this is fun!

 

[KingOrfeo]

appeal to authority would apply if i'm asserting a position, i'm only rebutting with an accepted premise. there's no dispute that experts do disagree with his position.

But, there is; see the OP.

 

[AllyRose]

Even proponents say, it kills jobs:


http://mises.org/daily/2130

... But he dismisses these critics because "minimum wages have at most a tiny impact on employment … The minimum wage kills very few jobs, and the jobs it kills were lousy jobs anyway. It is almost impossible to maintain the old argument that minimum wages are bad for minimum-wage workers."

 

[NeverEndingMe]

why does your kind strive to be 'earning' min wage?


why not get off your lazy horse and find a path to a real job?

are all of your kind this fucking stupid?

From The Nation:

The Score: Does the Minimum Wage Kill Jobs?

Mike Konczal and Bryce Covert October 8, 2014 | This article appeared in the October 27, 2014 edition of The Nation.

Throw a rock into the punditsphere and you’ll hit someone arguing that minimum-wage increases kill jobs. We shouldn’t boost the wage, these people argue, because companies will hire fewer of the lowest-paid workers—the very workers who are supposed to be helped. Meanwhile, social movements like Fight for 15 demand a higher minimum wage in order to raise the living standards of these workers.

To a degree, the relationship between the minimum wage and employment is still debated among economists. When thirty-eight of them were polled last year, they were split as to whether a $9 hourly wage would cost jobs, with about a quarter unable to say one way or another. The debate pits the Congressional Budget Office, which found that a $10.10 wage would reduce employment by 0.3 percent, against economists like David Cooper, who found that a higher minimum wage would support the creation of 85,000 new jobs.

So which is it: Does raising the minimum wage boost living standards for workers, or does it kill jobs for those who need them most?

Taking stock of all the conflicting research on the topic suggests the former: employment is unlikely to suffer from a higher wage. In 2009, Hristos Doucouliagos and T.D. Stanley published a paper that reviewed sixty-four studies and found that when the studies’ findings were averaged out, the impact of raising the minimum wage on employment was close to zero. Also, the most statistically precise studies were the likeliest to find no impact. Increasing the wage by 10 percent could reduce employment by a mere 0.1 percent.

Critics suggest that employers of low-income workers will replace them with machines if their labor becomes more costly. But in the real world, businesses are run by human beings who make a range of choices. Bosses often respond to higher labor costs not by cutting workers, but by requiring workers to be more efficient. They may reduce bonuses for higher-paid employees. They could pass the cost on to customers through higher prices, although a review of academic papers found that a 10 percent wage increase raised prices by no more than 0.4 percent. Most important, employers are likely to find that a higher wage reduces costly job turnover among trained workers. Higher wages also put more money into workers’ pockets—to the tune of some $30 billion—which would then be spent at these businesses.

[bar graph]

Real-world evidence is reassuring. In 2010, three economists looked at 1,381 counties over sixteen years, finding that minimum-wage hikes had no effect on employment. Other economists looked at every state-level minimum-wage increase over twenty-five years at times when unemployment was already high and found no evidence of an effect on job creation. Yet another group looked at the effect of state-level increases on teenagers—canaries in the coal mine of low-skilled employment—and found zero impact on their jobs.

Even this year, the thirteen states that raised their minimum wages on January 1 have experienced higher employment growth than those that didn’t. Washington, the state that has boasted the highest minimum wage for fifteen years, had a job-growth rate 0.3 percentage points above the national rate. It’s impossible to draw a clear line of causation from a higher minimum wage to job growth, but the hikes clearly did not torpedo local economies. Across the board, there’s little reason to think that a higher wage would decimate job growth and good reason to think it could give the economy—and workers—a boost.

THE SCORECARD

Myth: The minimum wage is a living wage.

Reality: One full-time minimum-wage job used to be able to keep a family of three above the poverty line. Now it can’t keep a single parent above the poverty line.

Myth: Mostly teenagers in short-term jobs make the minimum wage.

Reality: Nearly 90 percent of the workers who would be affected by a minimum-wage hike are older than 20, and 28 percent of them are parents.

Myth: Minimum-wage jobs like fast food are just entry points to better-paid careers.

Reality: In the minimum-wage fast-food industry, there are far fewer managerial positions to move into than in other industries, and few franchise ownership opportunities.

THE GLASS IS:

half-full: Ten states have passed minimum-wage increases this year, five above $10 an hour.

half-empty: Congressional Republicans have blocked a federal minimum-wage increase three times over the past three years despite supporting one under President George W. Bush.

 

[unregistered]

 

[Balladeer08]

I'm pretty sure there's a lot more to life than being really, really, ridiculously good looking. And I plan on finding out what that is.

Try witty. That would be much more unique these days. A non-venomous, non-hateful, just fun and maybe silly witty.

One of the reasons I doubt mathematics is that if you put two half-wits together, you don't get a wit.

(As far as I know, that is an original observation. When I proof-read this, I thought it was pretty good.)

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

... But he dismisses these critics because "minimum wages have at most a tiny impact on employment … The minimum wage kills very few jobs, and the jobs it kills were lousy jobs anyway. It is almost impossible to maintain the old argument that minimum wages are bad for minimum-wage workers."

Every one of those jobs killed was a teenager or minority who did not get that first opportunity to prove to an employer that they were more valuable than minimum wage. That person will not be deemed qualified to earn a higher rate of pay now having no experience to prove to an employer that they are even worthy of being considered for the position, for no one else wanted to employ them. Any job lost, while maybe meeting your, or some Socialist of the Chair's, definition of the subjective "lousy," might very well be to one in dire need, a lifeline, the first rung on the ladder to success.

This is why cherry-picking a single line out of a complete analysis is not your friend. It makes you look like supporting your ideology is more important that having an open mind.

 

[ZiggyTheHutt]

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/6sn82w/sam-brownback-s-conservative-kansas-experiment

To follow up, here's an example of stupid right-wing nonsense actually playing out in all its unadulterated idiotic glory. An example of supply-side foolishness. Here are Republicans and businessmen telling you exactly what I've been saying- in this case, reducing taxes doesn't create jobs.

See, right-wing nutters, when businessmen make more money, they put it in their pocket. When you give them tax breaks, and they're already successful and profitable, all that money goes into their pocket. They do not hire new people.

The farmer in the video put it so simply even you can understand it- why hire people that you don't need? And, that money that would have been spent on, let's say, schools, disappears. And that causes a crisis.

And then, of course, when your roads and school systems turn to utter shit, the people decide well, let's get rid of that fucking moron we elected and put someone who understands how to run a government back in charge of a government.

But hey, maybe it will work if you do it even harder next time. If you stuff cash into rich people's pockets long enough, maybe eventually some of it will spill out onto the ground, and someone might pick it up and spend it someday instead of stacking it neatly on top of their own personal money pile.

Oh, what silliness when people think that they can have opinions about things like mathematics. Subtract millions of dollars from an economy and hire zero new people, and only in right-wing idiotland does this translate into a win for society.

See, I can understand a rich selfish dope supporting this nonsense, but I can't understand how you convince a bunch of dumb, impressionable bible-thumping bigots.... oh wait, I think I just figured it out. It's because they're fucking stupid.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Every one of those jobs killed was a teenager or minority who did not get that first opportunity to prove to an employer that they were more valuable than minimum wage. That person will not be deemed qualified to earn a higher rate of pay now having no experience to prove to an employer that they are even worthy of being considered for the position, for no one else wanted to employ them. Any job lost, while maybe meeting your, or some Socialist of the Chair's, definition of the subjective "lousy," might very well be to one in dire need, a lifeline, the first rung on the ladder to success.

This is why cherry-picking a single line out of a complete analysis is not your friend. It makes you look like supporting your ideology is more important that having an open mind.

The unintentional irony here is breathtaking.

 

[unregistered]

 

[kbate]

"You cannot make a man worth a given amount by making it illegal for anyone to offer him anything less. You merely deprive him of the right to earn the amount that his abilities and situation would permit him to earn, while you deprive the community even of the moderate services that he is capable of rendering. In brief, for a low wage you substitute unemployment. You do harm all around, with no comparable compensation."

Henry Hazlett

Go Google!

 

[doctor_insanus]

If you go paying these welfare queens a living wage, John Galt III will have to settle for that 320-foot superyacht, instead of the 350-foot model he deserves.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Henry Hazlett was an acolyte of Ayn Rand and a buddy of the discredited Louie Von Mises. As such, his views are disqualified from serious discussion.

 

[unregistered]

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Ziggy has no concept of market pressure and profit margin.

Zero.



That type of economic illiteracy is scary because it is shared by so many of the unwashed low-information voting types, not a one who would be better off in a Socialism or a Communism while the people they hate the most would still manage to thrive and prosper, probably even more under a system where they truly share power with the government.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Yet with all that "economic literacy" you routinely boast about, you've been singularly unable to obtain fulltime employment for the majority of this year.

How do you a-splain this apparent disconnect? Hmmmm?

 

[NeverEndingMe]

Yet with all that "economic literacy" you routinely boast about, you've been singularly unable to obtain fulltime employment for the majority of this year.

How do you a-splain this apparent disconnect? Hmmmm?

if only, a pile of shit, like you Bob, can actually hire someone will blow my socks off. Your kind has no idea what it takes to employe a person.

basically, I think you live in a 1 bedroom section 8 apt.

 

[Adre]

AJ and Miles have both referred to the unwashed this morning. Are you guys especially clean, or this that code for 'you're a little better than everyone else?'

 

[NeverEndingMe]

AJ and Miles have both referred to the unwashed this morning. Are you guys especially clean, or this that code for 'you're a little better than everyone else?'

again, another 'obama' coward.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

AJ and Miles have both referred to the unwashed this morning. Are you guys especially clean, or this that code for 'you're a little better than everyone else?'

http://americanthinker.com/2014/10/the_left_avows_its_ungodly_love_of_filth.html