Rest in Peace Robin Williams

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Your guess would be wrong. Yes it hurts, like a mother fucker, but if you have any real empathy you come to terms with the fact that YOUR feelings are not more important than theirs were. Death is death. Whether it was from accident, violence or disease makes no real difference. Though we're someone to do violence to a loved one of mine I'd be off to jail for sure.

Yes choosing to check out early is selfish. Everything ultimately is selfish, most people only see selfishness in others however, ya know, cause it's all about them.
He was selfish for not suffering so as to prevent others from suffering? Wishing for someone to continue suffering, so that you don't have to, is pretty fucking selfish now isn't it.

Folks like you gotta learn from experience. When your spouse or kid or lover or best friend drops a house on you your mind will get right.

Like LOVECRAFT. He's from the BIG HUGS CURE ALL school. If you gotta 10 pound tumor a hug will fix it.

 

[PennLady]

Folks like you gotta learn from experience. When your spouse or kid or lover or best friend drops a house on you your mind will get right.

Like LOVECRAFT. He's from the BIG HUGS CURE ALL school. If you gotta 10 pound tumor a hug will fix it.

If that's what you think lovecraft68 thinks, you really haven't been paying attention.

 

[sr71plt]

If that's what you think lovecraft68 thinks, you really haven't been paying attention.

Oh, all that's important to JBJ in his posts is the sound of the words. They don't have to make any sense.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Oh, all that's important to JBJ in his posts is the sound of the words. They don't have to make any sense.

Go succor LC.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

If that's what you think lovecraft68 thinks, you really haven't been paying attention.

You do his speaking for him these days?

 

[Bramblethorn]

Serves me right for saying "never"...

Ok, there are famous examples, but I will still claim that it's unusual.

On the one hand, I've cited a clinical psychologist whose credentials - let's just paste them: "Thomas Joiner grew up in Georgia, went to college at Princeton, and received his PhD in Clinical Psychology from the University of Texas at Austin. He is Distinguished Research Professor and The Bright-Burton Professor in the Department of Psychology at Florida State University. Dr. Joiner’s work is on the psychology, neurobiology, and treatment of suicidal behavior and related conditions. Author of over 385 peer-reviewed publications, Dr. Joiner was recently awarded the Guggenheim Fellowship, the Shneidman Award for excellence in suicide research from the American Association of Suicidology, and the Award for Distinguished Scientific Early Career Contributions from the American Psychological Association, as well as research grants from the National Institute of Mental Health and various foundations. Dr. Joiner is editor of the American Psychological Association’s Clinician’s Research Digest, editor of the Journal of Social & Clinical Psychology, and Editor-in-Chief of the journal Suicide & Life-Threatening Behavior, and he has authored or edited fifteen books, including Why People Die By Suicide, published in 2005 by Harvard University Press. He runs a part-time clinical and consulting practice specializing in suicidal behavior, including legal consultation on suits involving death by suicide." He believes that perceived burdensomeness plays a major part in suicide and has done quantitative analysis on suicide notes vs outcomes to support this.

Against this, I have your assertion that it doesn't.

It still all comes down to his age and experience. The guy had been dealing with this stuff all his life and should have learned enough about himself and the disease to prevent things from getting to a point where suicide became a danger.

This is about as naive as saying "the guy had been living with heart disease for years, he should have learned enough about it to prevent it from getting to a point where heart attack became a danger".

Yeah, self-knowledge helps. In RW's case, I'd guess it helped him get out of his relapse into drinking, and seeking treatment for depression more recently. But it's not a panacea. If you think there is any treatment program guaranteed to prevent people with MDD from committing suicide, go publish it with evidence; it'd probably be worth a Nobel.

According to his friends he had been on a down-slope for a while and looked increasingly haunted, so this wasn't a sudden thing.

One minute you're saying he's a jerk if he killed himself because of "one bad day". The next you're saying somebody who's been sick for a while should've been able to avoid this. It honestly sounds like you've already decided on the verdict you want to reach regardless of the facts.

And yes - he was rich, with an estimated value in excess of $50 mill at his death - and on top of that he had a family and an extensive support system.

If you'd read the Telegraph article I linked, you'd have noted that a large chunk of that estimated value was tied up in a ranch that he couldn't sell, and that he was stressing out about it. People with depression don't tend to sit down and look at a balance sheet and think "I'm still rich by most people's standards, and hey, I'm Robin Williams, even if I went bankrupt I could stay in a different fan's house every night for the rest of my life and eat for free". The fears and the setbacks become huge, the good things become tiny, the field of vision shrinks.

Families and support systems are great, but depression can get in the way of utilising them. People don't want to bother or scare their friends, they feel embarrassed about saying "I feel bad and need help" when they're supposed to be a big awesome celebrity, and sometimes they're scared that if they do ask for help the answer will be no.

In brief: depression fucks up your ability to get the sort of help you need. It's like asking a guy with a broken leg why he didn't walk to the hospital to get it treated.

There is a limit to how bad you are allowed to screw up before losing the moral high ground, and to use an analogy this guy basically died from starvation while sitting in the middle of an all-you-can-eat buffet.

That can happen, if your system isn't capable of processing the food you're eating.

Anyway, unless you have something more than personal opinion to offer about how depression works and how depressives ought to be judged, I think I'm done with this branch of the discussion.

 

[Bramblethorn]

The real pity in my view of this--and completely aside from whether he could/should have avoided going out this way; I have no argument to give the shoulda/coulda of his state of mind--is that now I'll never be able to watch anything he was in without the nagging thought in the back of my mind that he was so conflicted underneath all of this that he committed suicide. His whole body of work is tainted--at least for me, and that's a real shame (for me), because he represented a major pillar of accomplishment and talent in the entertainment industry for me. This contrasts with Lauren Bacall, dying the next day, whose body of work will remain pure in my mind other than the regret that she's no longer here.

It's odd, I don't feel that way about films, but I get it a bit with music. I'm fine with listening to music by artists who are living and by artists who were already dead before I started paying attention, but it feels weird when an artist dies a bad death after I've put them on my playlist. Listening to something like "Man In The Box" knowing how Layne Staley died (long slow suicide via heroin and self-neglect); the guy sang like he was trying to exorcise demons, and evidently it didn't work. Ditto with Cobain and "Heart-Shaped Box". Probably just as well I never got into Amy Winehouse.

It doesn't stop me from listening to them, if anything it heightens the effect, but it certainly colours how I hear them afterwards.

 

[sr71plt]

It's odd, I don't feel that way about films, but I get it a bit with music. I'm fine with listening to music by artists who are living and by artists who were already dead before I started paying attention, but it feels weird when an artist dies a bad death after I've put them on my playlist. Listening to something like "Man In The Box" knowing how Layne Staley died (long slow suicide via heroin and self-neglect); the guy sang like he was trying to exorcise demons, and evidently it didn't work. Ditto with Cobain and "Heart-Shaped Box". Probably just as well I never got into Amy Winehouse.

It doesn't stop me from listening to them, if anything it heightens the effect, but it certainly colours how I hear them afterwards.

And there's Janis Joplin. (Even Cass Elliot. Can't listen to her without the image of her choking on a ham sandwich--and that wasn't self-destructive in quite the same way as most of the others. Although she certainly could have done without ham sandwiches for a good long stretch.) Karen Carpenter too--in the opposite direction from Cass Elliot.

 

[sr71plt]

Go succor LC.

Just wish you weren't so upbeat and perky all the time. Much too Pollyanish for me.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Just wish you weren't so upbeat and perky all the time. Much too Pollyanish for me.

You must be gazing in a mirror.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

On the one hand, I've cited a clinical psychologist whose credentials - let's just paste them: "Thomas Joiner grew up in Georgia, went to college at Princeton, and received his PhD in Clinical Psychology from the University of Texas at Austin. He is Distinguished Research Professor and The Bright-Burton Professor in the Department of Psychology at Florida State University. Dr. Joiner’s work is on the psychology, neurobiology, and treatment of suicidal behavior and related conditions. Author of over 385 peer-reviewed publications, Dr. Joiner was recently awarded the Guggenheim Fellowship, the Shneidman Award for excellence in suicide research from the American Association of Suicidology, and the Award for Distinguished Scientific Early Career Contributions from the American Psychological Association, as well as research grants from the National Institute of Mental Health and various foundations. Dr. Joiner is editor of the American Psychological Association’s Clinician’s Research Digest, editor of the Journal of Social & Clinical Psychology, and Editor-in-Chief of the journal Suicide & Life-Threatening Behavior, and he has authored or edited fifteen books, including Why People Die By Suicide, published in 2005 by Harvard University Press. He runs a part-time clinical and consulting practice specializing in suicidal behavior, including legal consultation on suits involving death by suicide." He believes that perceived burdensomeness plays a major part in suicide and has done quantitative analysis on suicide notes vs outcomes to support this.

Against this, I have your assertion that it doesn't.



This is about as naive as saying "the guy had been living with heart disease for years, he should have learned enough about it to prevent it from getting to a point where heart attack became a danger".

Yeah, self-knowledge helps. In RW's case, I'd guess it helped him get out of his relapse into drinking, and seeking treatment for depression more recently. But it's not a panacea. If you think there is any treatment program guaranteed to prevent people with MDD from committing suicide, go publish it with evidence; it'd probably be worth a Nobel.



One minute you're saying he's a jerk if he killed himself because of "one bad day". The next you're saying somebody who's been sick for a while should've been able to avoid this. It honestly sounds like you've already decided on the verdict you want to reach regardless of the facts.



If you'd read the Telegraph article I linked, you'd have noted that a large chunk of that estimated value was tied up in a ranch that he couldn't sell, and that he was stressing out about it. People with depression don't tend to sit down and look at a balance sheet and think "I'm still rich by most people's standards, and hey, I'm Robin Williams, even if I went bankrupt I could stay in a different fan's house every night for the rest of my life and eat for free". The fears and the setbacks become huge, the good things become tiny, the field of vision shrinks.

Families and support systems are great, but depression can get in the way of utilising them. People don't want to bother or scare their friends, they feel embarrassed about saying "I feel bad and need help" when they're supposed to be a big awesome celebrity, and sometimes they're scared that if they do ask for help the answer will be no.

In brief: depression fucks up your ability to get the sort of help you need. It's like asking a guy with a broken leg why he didn't walk to the hospital to get it treated.



That can happen, if your system isn't capable of processing the food you're eating.

Anyway, unless you have something more than personal opinion to offer about how depression works and how depressives ought to be judged, I think I'm done with this branch of the discussion.

Remind me to send you our gold plated crutches pin and membership card to Wounded Wusses. Engraved on the pin is our motto: WWHAT DO YOU EXPECT FROM A GUY WITH A WOODEN LEG!

 

[sr71plt]

You must be gazing in a mirror.

To the extent that a computer monitor is a mirror, yes. (duh)

(Think you need some new material, big guy)

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

To the extent that a computer monitor is a mirror, yes. (duh)

(Think you need some new material, big guy)

Youre right, time to fuck with you again.

 

[sr71plt]

I doubt that. Your material is so stale that just about everyone who didn't just come in on a raft has you figured out.

 

[StrangeLife]

Against this, I have your assertion that it doesn't.

No, you have my assertion that there exists an adversarial relation between the court system - that is, the people - and the psychiatry. Making an insanity defence stick is not trivial.

This is about as naive as saying "the guy had been living with heart disease for years, he should have learned enough about it to prevent it from getting to a point where heart attack became a danger".

My dad lived with heart disease for many years. This involved always keeping his pills handy, sticking to the diet and exercise program prescribed by his doctor, attending his monthly check-ups, carrying around a charged cellphone at all time, familiarizing himself with the signs of impending problems, keeping a card in his pocket with his essential medical data for the event that he was brought in unconscious, never going to the forest without a companion, quitting the smokes and so on.

It sucks, but it beats the alternative. And as a family man your life is not yours to jeopardise out of neglect.

If you'd read the Telegraph article I linked, you'd have noted that a large chunk of that estimated value was tied up in a ranch that he couldn't sell, and that he was stressing out about it. People with depression don't tend to sit down and look at a balance sheet and think "I'm still rich by most people's standards, and hey, I'm Robin Williams, even if I went bankrupt I could stay in a different fan's house every night for the rest of my life and eat for free". The fears and the setbacks become huge, the good things become tiny, the field of vision shrinks.

He had $50 mill in assets. Thus he must have had serious equity in that farm. But that aside, he should still have been aware of the effect financial stress might have on his condition.

In brief: depression fucks up your ability to get the sort of help you need. It's like asking a guy with a broken leg why he didn't walk to the hospital to get it treated.

No. It's like asking a guy who knows in advance that he has a high chance of breaking his leg to go downhill skiing on the black slope without safety-bindings.

Anyway, unless you have something more than personal opinion to offer about how depression works and how depressives ought to be judged, I think I'm done with this branch of the discussion.

I'm not judging people with depression or anybody else for that matter. But I have a hard time mourning a needless suicide. It was an unworthy ending for a great man.

 

[rippitydoo]

Even if you've been depressed, it's difficult to empathize with another person's unique depression.

But... the ability to provide is a core theme among depression, no matter how it gets twisted by details (at least among teenagers).

I don't have my headphones or earbuds on right now, so I am 100% positive that it's my internal BS alarm going off on this one.

I am well past my teens. That said, I notice most of the shows Dr. Phil does on leeches (or whatever his tech term for them is) are people who are in late teens, or close to it. None of them seem to care about what they are financially costing family & friends, let alone themselves being able to provide for others!

Also, as has already been covered in these threads, Robin had easy access to knowledge that he was improving the lives of many (short- or long-term). He also had access to lots of money he'd been paid in the past (& assured more to come) that would allow him to provide for himself & family, due in large part to the ability he'd repeatedly proven he had to improve the lives of millions of total strangers.

As someone who myself battled depression starting at about age 18 to this very week, let me tell you I for one couldn't give a flying crap if I'm able to get a job, & I've certainly never been on a single date, & also count those things & the fact I've never had a kid among the things that I am perfectly fine with, if not happier because of! (I honestly spent hours this evening at my nephew's soccer practice, so my 2 nephews, my niece, & my sister could all see me, & vice-versa. None of that time cost me or any of the kids anything or made them any money, but it made me for one feel a bunch better.)

Lastly, I wouldn't care if I woke tomorrow to an empty bank account & single figures in my wallet; I've got plenty to eat, read, & do here at home, & if I'm doing OK, I don't care what (if anything) I can provide for anyone else, as that's good enough for me!!

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I doubt that. Your material is so stale that just about everyone who didn't just come in on a raft has you figured out.

Then go fuck yourself and find someone new to play with.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

In this thread you have proved yourself a liar for every time you've had the audacity to mention you've worked in this field.

I'm disgusted with you, I really am.

TIME TO MAN UP LOVECRAFT. SHOW US YOUR CARDS. WHERES YOUR PROOF I'M A LIAR.

DONT BE SHY.

YOU SAID IT, PROVE IT.

YOURE NOT TALKING OUT YOUR ASS RU?

 

[BuckyDuckman]

Guess I'll trudge into this pile of shit. So far, about the most intelligent thing I've read has been this:

This is about as naive as saying "the guy had been living with heart disease for years, he should have learned enough about it to prevent it from getting to a point where heart attack became a danger".

It's easy to surmise that with Robin's seemingly unlimited resources, he should have been able to get the help he needed. To me, that way of thinking reminds of the Eddie Murphy joke about Elvis, "Elvis didn't need to die. He could have paid people to perform hallucinations for him!"

Depression can be a devastating condition with dire consequences deserving our compassion for those stuck in that downward spiral and our sympathy for those closest to that person. Anyone suggesting otherwise is an ignorant pinhead.

Robin was an amazingly talented individual who, quite obviously by his final choice, was deeply troubled, too. That's unfortunate, but I see no reason for his illness to taint his body of work. Genius remains genius regardless of the end result. My advice? Appreciate the work he was able to give us. Perhaps it was fueled by his inner demons or hampered by them. Conjecturing about that aspect of his life has the same value as being a Monday Morning Quarterback.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Guess I'll trudge into this pile of shit. So far, about the most intelligent thing I've read has been this:



It's easy to surmise that with Robin's seemingly unlimited resources, he should have been able to get the help he needed. To me, that way of thinking reminds of the Eddie Murphy joke about Elvis, "Elvis didn't need to die. He could have paid people to perform hallucinations for him!"

Depression can be a devastating condition with dire consequences deserving our compassion for those stuck in that downward spiral and our sympathy for those closest to that person. Anyone suggesting otherwise is an ignorant pinhead.

Robin was an amazingly talented individual who, quite obviously by his final choice, was deeply troubled, too. That's unfortunate, but I see no reason for his illness to taint his body of work. Genius remains genius regardless of the end result. My advice? Appreciate the work he was able to give us. Perhaps it was fueled by his inner demons or hampered by them. Conjecturing about that aspect of his life has the same value as being a Monday Morning Quarterback.

He was a narcissist who awoke one morning and realized his youth, talent, and money were gone.

 

[BuckyDuckman]

He was a narcissist who awoke one morning and realized his youth, talent, and money were gone.

Suicide is the ultimate form of self-criticism.

 

[sr71plt]

Then go fuck yourself and find someone new to play with.

Yeah, I think you ran out of steam too.

(So much for you saying you were fucking with me. Made ya blink.)

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Yeah, I think you ran out of steam too.

(So much for you saying you were fucking with me. Made ya blink.)

NEWS FLASH No one gives a shit what you think.

 

[sr71plt]

JBJ: The poster boy for "can dish it out but can't take it."

 

[RoyceConnors]

I only wish lives were as transplantable as organs were. They could have taken this crybaby loser's life and given it to someone with a Bucket List so they could live their lives long enough to complete it. Then it wouldn't be such a tragic waste of a life.
I wish there was a heaven and I could see the fucktard's face when he sees his father standing there waiting for him. His words would be, "Putz, schlemiel, you insult me and our family with this? How could you do such a thing? I disown you."

As for depression, it's the biggest crybaby crap modern medicine and the big Pharmas have played on. It's life people, it has ups and downs and it isn't all fairy tale perfect. No one said it was going to be easy, but we make what we make out of it due to our own choice and circumstance. Everyone gets depressed, it's part of who we are, but now it's such a big deal because it's all the rage now and gives everyone another excuse to give up and blame something.
I watched men come back from war and have memories of the things they did and saw the depression hit them. I never saw one of them take his life of give up on living the rest of his until they died. We face some dire things in life, but there is always hope and that hope should never be taken away, by anyone, or by yourself.
I face depression every day and have had the thoughts come to me that living like this wasn't worth it any more. There's only so much a mind can take before it snaps and goes irrational, but I never give up the hope that things can get better somehow. I work hard at living everyday and never take one day for granted. I'm as far down the ladder in life as you can get in most cases, but I still have the desire to climb that bastard and make it as far up as I can.

RW was a great comedian and person in his real life, I will always hold him in high regard for his achievements in that. I can't respect him the same now for what he did to end it all.