Rest in Peace Robin Williams

[squirrelzo]

Like I said, it's only when they get desperate enough and join a program amd are essentially told like little infants that they HAVE to do this that they "own their own shit." Left on their own they will not.

Then you have never met one in recovery the first step is to sit down and own your shit, to admit you are the one doing this to yourself and others and need to get some help.

In the drunk and drugs they do wallow(or fly on a false perception of wellness brought on by whatever their fix is.) but once on the path that stops.

A tremendous amount of guilt plagues recovering addicts because they can never change what they did or unhurt those they hurt. So they may not always be the cheeriest of people, but its very easy for people to not understand that unless they have lived it or spent their lives around people who have both won and lost that fight.

You're an addict or you're not. For those who aren't saying these people are just weak is blind ignorance, but hey, the internet is a haven for that.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

In this thread you have proved yourself a liar for every time you've had the audacity to mention you've worked in this field.

I'm disgusted with you, I really am.

And youre fulla yourself and shit.

Lemme splain something you to numnutz. I've prolly read 1000 commix in my life, I know a Golden Classics from DC when I see them, and that's bout it. Its doesn't qualify me to offer an opinion beyond what I like and don't like. Same with you, hot shot, you've seen a 1000 depressed people and now youre an expert. Youre a sad fuck....like PILOT.

 

[patientlee]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I'll throw this in. If you've never been depressed, you have no idea how irrational someone's thinking can be. We have no idea what was in his head, but I'm sure he wasn't thinking about his successes or how many would mourn his loss. He probably felt like he was a piece of shit that nobody would miss.

Take depression seriously. In yourself and in others.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I'll throw this in. If you've never been depressed, you have no idea how irrational someone's thinking can be. We have no idea what was in his head, but I'm sure he wasn't thinking about his successes or how many would mourn his loss. He probably felt like he was a piece of shit that nobody would miss.

Take depression seriously. In yourself and in others.

Gimme a break. He wasn't 19, he was 63. He knew what was up and he knew the 911 number. And he knew where detox is located. He got the outcome he wanted and he didn't give a shit about his kids, relatives, and friends. Lets bury him in a wounded wuss blanket.

 

[Trixareforkids]

Gimme a break. He wasn't 19, he was 63. He knew what was up and he knew the 911 number. And he knew where detox is located. He got the outcome he wanted and he didn't give a shit about his kids, relatives, and friends. Lets bury him in a wounded wuss blanket.

Deciding to check out holds no bearing on his feelings for his loved ones. That a suicidal depressive drug addict made it to 63 shows how much those loves ones meant to him. Anyone that has had it or has empathy for those that do live with it on a daily basis would understand that.

 

[StrangeLife]

And I had a similar reaction to yours, I think, when Kurt Cobain died. I wasn't a huge fan, but the music was okay with me. My first thought was, "Wow, too bad." My second thought was, "What a shit for doing that to his wife and kid." And I'm sure many people thought that someone as successful and creative as Cobain was selfish for ending that creativity, and certainly he was another one who had the wherewithal to get help, and access to it.

Suicide? I suspect that Courtney Love is a lot smarter than she looks, and now she's rich too. Hmmm....

...were not thinking rationally or logically about what they were doing. This is part of the "brain not processing properly," or however you might want to phrase it. They were ill, and sometimes, no matter how much medicine or therapy or counseling is available, or how much money you have to avail yourself of treatment, it will not cure you.

It is a crying shame for Williams -- and non-famous people with similar problems -- that there was no one there at that lowest moment, or that he felt there was no other way.

In order for your mental state to be accepted as a defence in a court of law, you have to be in a state of mind where you are unable to separate right from wrong. Like a mall shooter who believes he is fighting aliens or something.

Depression doesn't take you to that level of dissociation. A depressed person who survives a suicide attempt usually rationalizes it later with "It felt like my best/only option at the time". His/her logic might be twisted but is still based on a knowledge that suicide is wrong. In that moment it's just the most attractive and easy way out. It's no different than a junkie robbing a gas station to get money for a fix - knowing it's wrong and will hurt others, but doing it because it's the easy way of getting rid of the pain.

 

[rippitydoo]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I'll throw this in. If you've never been depressed, you have no idea how irrational someone's thinking can be. We have no idea what was in his head, but I'm sure he wasn't thinking about his successes or how many would mourn his loss. He probably felt like he was a piece of shit that nobody would miss.

The same way that self-contradiction proves you weren't thinking properly/clearly when you posted it.

I have been depressed to the point of attempts in the past (only one was over a decade ago), so I know how someone's thinking can be. However, I also know that even the knowledge of "how irrational someone's thinking can be" doesn't mean it will be exactly that degree of (ir)rationality in the next depressed person.

I also know that thinking you're a piece of crap nobody would miss is thinking about how many would/will mourn your loss... You just believe that number to be 0, meaning while your depression means that your life isn't worth anything to you, you also believe it has the same (lack of) value to everyone else on the planet.

 

[Sonichu]

Even if you've been depressed, it's difficult to empathize with another person's unique depression.

But creature comforts are creature comforts, and the ability to provide is a core theme among depression, no matter how it gets twisted by details (at least among teenagers).

 

[CrissySnow]

I suffer from depression. Let me say this no matter how much money I have or the world in my hands I will never feel happy. It's a mental illness not just feeling sad all the time. No it's actually mentally exhausting and can turn into physical damage if left untreated. I feel like there's not enough love in the world. I wish he could have gotten better help. Rip RW.

 

[patientlee]

The same way that self-contradiction proves you weren't thinking properly/clearly when you posted it.

I have been depressed to the point of attempts in the past (only one was over a decade ago), so I know how someone's thinking can be. However, I also know that even the knowledge of "how irrational someone's thinking can be" doesn't mean it will be exactly that degree of (ir)rationality in the next depressed person.

I also know that thinking you're a piece of crap nobody would miss is thinking about how many would/will mourn your loss... You just believe that number to be 0, meaning while your depression means that your life isn't worth anything to you, you also believe it has the same (lack of) value to everyone else on the planet.

I stand by my point. Someone who hasn't been depressed has no idea how irrational a depressed person's thoughts can be.

 

[StrangeLife]

I suffer from depression. Let me say this no matter how much money I have or the world in my hands I will never feel happy. It's a mental illness not just feeling sad all the time. No it's actually mentally exhausting and can turn into physical damage if left untreated. I feel like there's not enough love in the world. I wish he could have gotten better help. Rip RW.

I have the deepest respect for Robin Williams talent and achievements and I am definitely not trying to belittle the impact of clinical depression. However, as JBJ pointed out previously, we are dealing with a grown man who had battled this issue for most of his life. He probably knew more about living with depression than most people, and could have prepared for a situation like this. It's a serious illness, but it's treatable with a high success rate.

And in the US it does make a substantial difference if you have sufficient financial means. No, of course money can't buy you happiness - I get that - but imagine being severely depressed and being a single mom in a trashy two room apartment with four kids who has to work double shifts in McDonalds and still not be able to afford premium care. So while money can't cure a depression, it can certainly alleviate the collateral effects.

So I feel sorry for his wife and kids, but if he actually hanged himself in a belt because he had a bad day, I cannot respect him for that. As a family man you have no right.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Deciding to check out holds no bearing on his feelings for his loved ones. That a suicidal depressive drug addict made it to 63 shows how much those loves ones meant to him. Anyone that has had it or has empathy for those that do live with it on a daily basis would understand that.

I'm guessing you've never had a loved one kill themselves. It makes for a bad day that lasts the rest of your life. Suicide is about as narcissistic as you can be.

 

[Bramblethorn]

In order for your mental state to be accepted as a defence in a court of law, you have to be in a state of mind where you are unable to separate right from wrong. Like a mall shooter who believes he is fighting aliens or something. Depression doesn't take you to that level of dissociation.

Actually, yeah, it can do...

A depressed person who survives a suicide attempt usually rationalizes it later with "It felt like my best/only option at the time". His/her logic might be twisted but is still based on a knowledge that suicide is wrong. In that moment it's just the most attractive and easy way out. It's no different than a junkie robbing a gas station to get money for a fix - knowing it's wrong and will hurt others, but doing it because it's the easy way of getting rid of the pain.

This isn't correct. A lot of depressives who commit suicide do so in the belief that it's better for their loved ones than hanging on - they underestimate their value to others and the trauma their death will cause. The concept's termed "perceived burdensomeness"; here is an article that discusses it, by a psychologist with very solid credentials in the area. It also notes that those who succeed in killing themselves - as opposed to the survivors you're describing - are more likely to be those with high levels of perceived burdensomeness.

In other words, many suicides are acting under a lethally mistaken belief that leads them to think they're doing the right thing.

I have the deepest respect for Robin Williams talent and achievements and I am definitely not trying to belittle the impact of clinical depression. However, as JBJ pointed out previously, we are dealing with a grown man who had battled this issue for most of his life. He probably knew more about living with depression than most people, and could have prepared for a situation like this. It's a serious illness, but it's treatable with a high success rate.

He did. He sought treatment. It didn't save him. That happens sometimes.

And in the US it does make a substantial difference if you have sufficient financial means. No, of course money can't buy you happiness - I get that - but imagine being severely depressed and being a single mom in a trashy two room apartment with four kids who has to work double shifts in McDonalds and still not be able to afford premium care. So while money can't cure a depression, it can certainly alleviate the collateral effects.

Being well-off actually tends to increase the risk of suicide. Being poor is not a risk in itself, but losing a lot of money is... and that's exactly the scenario RW was in. As per the Telegraph article I linked above, he was having serious financial troubles.

I expect he would still have been stinking rich compared to you and me, but then he wouldn't have been comparing himself to you and me. More likely he'd have been comparing to the younger, more successful guy he used to be.

So I feel sorry for his wife and kids, but if he actually hanged himself in a belt because he had a bad day, I cannot respect him for that. As a family man you have no right.

This wasn't because of one bad day. He had a long history of depressive illness and it looks as if this particular episode had been going on for months, during which time he did seek treatment.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Did LoveCraft the troll flee for a little succor from PILOT?

Where RU loser man?

 

[Trixareforkids]

I'm guessing you've never had a loved one kill themselves. It makes for a bad day that lasts the rest of your life. Suicide is about as narcissistic as you can be.

Your guess would be wrong. Yes it hurts, like a mother fucker, but if you have any real empathy you come to terms with the fact that YOUR feelings are not more important than theirs were. Death is death. Whether it was from accident, violence or disease makes no real difference. Though we're someone to do violence to a loved one of mine I'd be off to jail for sure.

Yes choosing to check out early is selfish. Everything ultimately is selfish, most people only see selfishness in others however, ya know, cause it's all about them.
He was selfish for not suffering so as to prevent others from suffering? Wishing for someone to continue suffering, so that you don't have to, is pretty fucking selfish now isn't it.

 

[squirrelzo]

As you so often do, you assume your experience with things makes you the only expert.
Ive had plenty of experience with addictions,.addicts,.depression in family members. And Im guessing I've come to very different conclusions than you have.

I dont see addicts as weak. I don't stand outside and judge like a school marm. i also don't see it as some disease that just happens to visit these poor souls. Like their saints or martyrs or something. Just for the record I feel that way about depression as well which I have a lot more experience with. Oh, "depression" just happens to fly out of nowhere and land on me. How did that happen? I know this goes against the grain of most thinking nowadays.

Not a fan of 12 Step programs either. If they work for some, great! There are other ways as well.

I find the alkies Ive known to be uniformly self-pitying and extremely narcissistic. Their addiction doesn't make me look over these traits, anymore than they'd bother me less in a sober person.

Then you have never met one in recovery the first step is to sit down and own your shit, to admit you are the one doing this to yourself and others and need to get some help.

In the drunk and drugs they do wallow(or fly on a false perception of wellness brought on by whatever their fix is.) but once on the path that stops.

A tremendous amount of guilt plagues recovering addicts because they can never change what they did or unhurt those they hurt. So they may not always be the cheeriest of people, but its very easy for people to not understand that unless they have lived it or spent their lives around people who have both won and lost that fight.

You're an addict or you're not. For those who aren't saying these people are just weak is blind ignorance, but hey, the internet is a haven for that.

 

[StrangeLife]

Actually, yeah, it can do...

Serves me right for saying "never"...

Ok, there are famous examples, but I will still claim that it's unusual.

This isn't correct. A lot of depressives who commit suicide do so in the belief that it's better for their loved ones than hanging on - they underestimate their value to others and the trauma their death will cause. The concept's termed "perceived burdensomeness"; here is an article that discusses it, by a psychiatrist with very solid credentials in the area. It also notes that those who succeed in killing themselves - as opposed to the survivors you're describing - are more likely to be those with high levels of perceived burdensomeness.

In other words, many suicides are acting under a lethally mistaken belief that leads them to think they're doing the right thing.



He did. He sought treatment. It didn't save him. That happens sometimes.



Being well-off actually tends to increase the risk of suicide. Being poor is not a risk in itself, but losing a lot of money is... and that's exactly the scenario RW was in. As per the Telegraph article I linked above, he was having serious financial troubles.

I expect he would still have been stinking rich compared to you and me, but then he wouldn't have been comparing himself to you and me. More likely he'd have been comparing to the younger, more successful guy he used to be.

This wasn't because of one bad day. He had a long history of depressive illness and it looks as if this particular episode had been going on for months, during which time he did seek treatment.

It still all comes down to his age and experience. The guy had been dealing with this stuff all his life and should have learned enough about himself and the disease to prevent things from getting to a point where suicide became a danger. According to his friends he had been on a down-slope for a while and looked increasingly haunted, so this wasn't a sudden thing. And yes - he was rich, with an estimated value in excess of $50 mill at his death - and on top of that he had a family and an extensive support system.

There is a limit to how bad you are allowed to screw up before losing the moral high ground, and to use an analogy this guy basically died from starvation while sitting in the middle of an all-you-can-eat buffet.

If he had died in a kinky sex-game David Carradine style I would have respected him more...

 

[TxRad]

Don't you just love how a troll can turn a memorial thread into a feeding frenzy. Just what he wanted boys and girls. He could care less about anyone one way or the other. Just stirring up the pot and inviting a few friends from the GB.

Don't feed the troll, even if he is our pet troll.

 

[sr71plt]

The real pity in my view of this--and completely aside from whether he could/should have avoided going out this way; I have no argument to give the shoulda/coulda of his state of mind--is that now I'll never be able to watch anything he was in without the nagging thought in the back of my mind that he was so conflicted underneath all of this that he committed suicide. His whole body of work is tainted--at least for me, and that's a real shame (for me), because he represented a major pillar of accomplishment and talent in the entertainment industry for me. This contrasts with Lauren Bacall, dying the next day, whose body of work will remain pure in my mind other than the regret that she's no longer here.

 

[PennLady]

The real pity in my view of this--and completely aside from whether he could/should have avoided going out this way; I have no argument to give the shoulda/coulda of his state of mind--is that now I'll never be able to watch anything he was in without the nagging thought in the back of my mind that he was so conflicted underneath all of this that he committed suicide. His whole body of work is tainted--at least for me, and that's a real shame (for me), because he represented a major pillar of accomplishment and talent in the entertainment industry for me. This contrasts with Lauren Bacall, dying the next day, whose body of work will remain pure in my mind other than the regret that she's no longer here.

That's true. It's hard for me to watch or listen to things sometimes after I know what's befallen a performer.

 

[JKendallDane]

The real pity in my view of this--and completely aside from whether he could/should have avoided going out this way; I have no argument to give the shoulda/coulda of his state of mind--is that now I'll never be able to watch anything he was in without the nagging thought in the back of my mind that he was so conflicted underneath all of this that he committed suicide. His whole body of work is tainted--at least for me, and that's a real shame (for me), because he represented a major pillar of accomplishment and talent in the entertainment industry for me. This contrasts with Lauren Bacall, dying the next day, whose body of work will remain pure in my mind other than the regret that she's no longer here.

I see it in just the opposite way.

Every time I watch any of his movies now, I will be in awe that he not only was able to pull off roles and truly make them his own like no other actor could have, but also managed to do it while fighting off so many different demons.

 

[PennLady]

I see it in just the opposite way.

Every time I watch any of his movies now, I will be in awe that he not only was able to pull off roles and truly make them his own like no other actor could have, but also managed to do it while fighting off so many different demons.

I think I'll try to adopt this when I can.

 

[sr71plt]

I think I'll try to adopt this when I can.

Either way, it has your thoughts of the performer intruding into the performance. I don't see that as good either way.

 

[PennLady]

Either way, it has your thoughts of the performer intruding into the performance. I don't see that as good either way.

I think our thoughts on the performer are almost always there. It's hard to get away from celebrity news, for example. I read some, I admit, but I don't make much effort and even just a headline gives you some info you may or may not want. So it's kind of there whether I read it voluntarily or just saw the headline.

And I think it could be argued that if you were thinking of, say, how a performer like Robin Williams did such brilliant comedy despite his problems, you could be enhancing your enjoyment of the performance. Like so many things, it's different for each individual.

 

[StrangeLife]

Don't you just love how a troll can turn a memorial thread into a feeding frenzy. Just what he wanted boys and girls. He could care less about anyone one way or the other. Just stirring up the pot and inviting a few friends from the GB.

Don't feed the troll, even if he is our pet troll.

Ah yes - whatever would we do without a convenient stamp to put on people who dare express an opinion? Makes life so much easier...