Basis of non-con/reluctance

[Addicted2Writing]

Evening all. I have a question. I write strictly BDSM and have started another story that is outside that realm.

While there is taste of BDSM in it, it is not the main theme. Basically she is held with the promise of rescuing her family. In the meantime they soon discover they are 'soul mates.' But...

My issue comes ... what is considered non-consent? I don't do the whole rape scene, which in my mind non-con is. Being held against one's while under false pretenses is as non-con as I want to write. And, the few non-con I've read revolve heavily in BDSM, which this story isn't based upon, and I want to stay away from.

The female lead is very strong, and she doesn't roll over just because he says so and magically loves having sex with him and begs for it. That's what I've read from other fics that I feel mine is a little different, and has left me confused.

So, basically, are there any rules to non-con? And ...
What is considered 'lame' in the non-con world?

I would appreciate others' thoughts. Thanks!

A2w

 

[lovecraft68]

Evening all. I have a question. I write strictly BDSM and have started another story that is outside that realm.

While there is taste of BDSM in it, it is not the main theme. Basically she is held with the promise of rescuing her family. In the meantime they soon discover they are 'soul mates.' But...

My issue comes ... what is considered non-consent? I don't do the whole rape scene, which in my mind non-con is. Being held against one's while under false pretenses is as non-con as I want to write. And, the few non-con I've read revolve heavily in BDSM, which this story isn't based upon, and I want to stay away from.

The female lead is very strong, and she doesn't roll over just because he says so and magically loves having sex with him and begs for it. That's what I've read from other fics that I feel mine is a little different, and has left me confused.

So, basically, are there any rules to non-con? And ...
What is considered 'lame' in the non-con world?

I would appreciate others' thoughts. Thanks!

A2w

Well I think you're okay because the non consent section is actually nonconsent/reluctance. So I think your tale could fall more towards reluctance.

basic difference is in reluctance, its okay the girl(or guy) does not want to do it, but there is something in the mix, blackmail etc...in your case her family's safety. So she will go through with what her capture wants, but he is not physically forcing her. She has a choice, albeit not much of one, but choice means consent and you are off the hook for actual non consent.

Now if a girl has no choice she is bound and raped that is non consent. You're not touching that from your description.

The category is divided a little, because NC and reluctance are very different. But I think you'll do okay it seems those stories do better score wise than the flat out rape stories.

 

[Addicted2Writing]

Lc

Okay, I think I was confusing myself between the two. Thanks for your clarification.

I didn't know if rape is a big thing in that category, but I have somewhat of a following so if they can handle a woman being bound and flogged, they can handle a little "You're bringing my family. I owe you."

It is hard when I write with a little bit of a few categories. I appreciate your thoughts.

 

[lovecraft68]

Okay, I think I was confusing myself between the two. Thanks for your clarification.

I didn't know if rape is a big thing in that category, but I have somewhat of a following so if they can handle a woman being bound and flogged, they can handle a little "You're bringing my family. I owe you."

It is hard when I write with a little bit of a few categories. I appreciate your thoughts.

You're right.

Also the BDSM crowd generally-from my experience-frowns upon rape because far too often people who do not understand BDSM lump it under rape so if your BDSM crowd follows you should be okay as you are writing it.

 

[slyc_willie]

So, basically, are there any rules to non-con? And ...
What is considered 'lame' in the non-con world?

I would appreciate others' thoughts. Thanks!

A2w

The titillation that comes from Non-Con/Reluctance stories stems from, I believe, the aspect of total or near-total control over someone who would rather not be having sex with you (for whatever reasons), but then "comes around." It's a domination thing (which is why so many people associate BDSM with Non-Con, I think).

The stories I've written for Non-Con are actually more to the reluctant side of things. They depict situations in which one person is given a choice of sex, or something unpleasant. In one, I have a young woman who causes an accident, and she begs the guy whose car she hit to not report the damage because she would then lose her license. Long story short, she has to have sex with him for him to agree. In another, I have a young woman not old enough to buy beer (she's under 21 but over 18) agree to give a blowjob in exchange for the beer.

In both situations, there isn't much the woman enjoys from the encounter, but there are a few hints here and there that maybe -- just maybe -- she might have enjoyed some part of it. The stories apparently push the right buttons for the readers of that category, if I can believe the ratings. I suspect the reasons are that the stories weren't rape fantasy or rape play, with the female character doing the literary equivalent of winking to the camera at the end. In both situations it was a guy in control of a reluctant female, and he gets to have his way without caring if she got any enjoyment out of it. That, I think, is one of the main central themes that readers of Non-Con look for: "I got mine, bitch, and fuck you if you liked it or not."

I wrote those stories as exercises for myself, mainly. I "get" the rape fantasy, though I personally don't have any. I've never asked my wife to pretend to be a stranger that I meet in a dark alley and coerce her into sex. But I think I understand the allure of it. What I think would ruin a non-con story for devotees of the genre would be an obvious "Yeah, she really wanted it all along and was just pretending to hate it" ending. The domination has to be complete.

 

[allamagione]

Wow, Willie, get out of my head! You summarize the appeal of the category well, at least the way I enjoy it.

For me, it's all about power — one person exercising it over another in order to take their pleasure at the other's expense.

The latter is the most important part, and my favorite noncon builds an illusion that the expense is real. The illusion is shattered if the woman* begins to blatantly enjoy herself or if it turns out to be only a rape fantasy or roleplay. A noncon story also loses its edge for me if the woman takes revenge; at that point, it feels like a morality tale rather than a sexual fantasy (although revenge does seem to be a popular request from commenters in that category). But my real squick in this category is romance — the coerced falling in love with the person coercing them. I understand Stockholm syndrome, but romance in this category always feels unrealistic to me.

*It could be a man instead, but in my fantasies, the person who is forced is always a woman, probably because I am a woman who fantasizes about being forced despite having no wish to experience it in real life. To be clear, I think rape and coercion are despicable in real life.

 

[Addicted2Writing]

Alla and Willie

Thanks for your thoughts. They've helped tremendously. "S" definitely dominates "M" but w/out D/s toys and such.

What my other concern was how quickly "M" turns and gives in to "S." This will be only about six chapters, very quick in the Lit world, but still. They've been 'dreaming' of the other, and "M" has been secluded for three years, so she gives herself to him as a way to forget everything. There is no Stockholm to it at all. She may or may not run away ... wait! I don't want to give too much away! lol

I think I'm on the right path, tho, and I guess I won't know until I finish it and post it.

Again, thanks to everyone for your thoughts!

 

[slyc_willie]

What my other concern was how quickly "M" turns and gives in to "S." This will be only about six chapters, very quick in the Lit world, but still. They've been 'dreaming' of the other, and "M" has been secluded for three years, so she gives herself to him as a way to forget everything. There is no Stockholm to it at all. She may or may not run away ... wait! I don't want to give too much away! lol

I think I'm on the right path, tho, and I guess I won't know until I finish it and post it.

Again, thanks to everyone for your thoughts!

What you've described here is something of a conundrum. M and S have been "dreaming" of one another, which makes me think there is already a sense of strong mutual attraction. In a Non-Con scenario, that can cause some problems, since, in effect, M (the victim) already wants S in some way.

The way to reconcile that problem would be for S's sexual desires to be outside M's comfort zone. In other words, M thinks of S in a romantic way, while S thinks of M as something beneath him, to be taken, controlled, and subjugated. That's the dividing line between BDSM and Non-Con. In BDSM, S would be careful not to go too far. In Non-Con, he wouldn't give a shit. It's all about his pleasure. M is just a device, a tool.

M could give in fairly early, if she thought that by doing so would get her away from S. Maybe he gives her a false promise of freedom if she acquiesces to his demands . . . only to keep her afterward, because she was so dutiful. He doesn't want her to give in so easily; he wants to find her breaking point, that place where she really does not want to go, and then shove her into that place, screaming and kicking. Only then would S feel like his control is complete.

Just some thoughts.

 

[slyc_willie]

Wow, Willie, get out of my head! You summarize the appeal of the category well, at least the way I enjoy it.

*It could be a man instead, but in my fantasies, the person who is forced is always a woman, probably because I am a woman who fantasizes about being forced despite having no wish to experience it in real life. To be clear, I think rape and coercion are despicable in real life.

On my submissions, I think I've gotten more feedback from women than men. It baffles me that so many women have rape/control fantasies. I don't think less of any woman who harbors such fantasies, but it does make me wonder.

Years ago, I had a lover who wanted me to spank her, slap her, call her all sorts of derogatory names during sex. I played to her fantasies -- sort of -- but not to the extent that she wanted. Until one night, when I'd had a very frustrating day at work, then a few beers upon coming home . . . the combination of factors led to a very unusual evening. I called her up, told her to come over . . . she was out with friends and at first tried to explain she couldn't make it, until I demanded that she come over, as soon as she could, "you filthy fucking whore" . . . and she was there about fifteen minutes later.

I've never been so rough with a woman during sex. I slapped and spanked her, pulled her hair, called her a "cunt" and "whore" and shoved her down into the mattress on my bed and . . . well, you get the idea. It was the only time in my life I can truthfully say I used a woman for sex, and I only justify that night through the fact that she literally screamed a half-dozen orgasms and more.

I, personally, did not have an orgasm that night. And I never had sex with her again. But that evening gave me a few insights into the rape fantasies of women. It was both an enlightening and sobering experience.

 

[Addicted2Writing]

ok

What you've described here is something of a conundrum. M and S have been "dreaming" of one another, which makes me think there is already a sense of strong mutual attraction. In a Non-Con scenario, that can cause some problems, since, in effect, M (the victim) already wants S in some way.

The way to reconcile that problem would be for S's sexual desires to be outside M's comfort zone. In other words, M thinks of S in a romantic way, while S thinks of M as something beneath him, to be taken, controlled, and subjugated. That's the dividing line between BDSM and Non-Con. In BDSM, S would be careful not to go too far. In Non-Con, he wouldn't give a shit. It's all about his pleasure. M is just a device, a tool.

M could give in fairly early, if she thought that by doing so would get her away from S. Maybe he gives her a false promise of freedom if she acquiesces to his demands . . . only to keep her afterward, because she was so dutiful. He doesn't want her to give in so easily; he wants to find her breaking point, that place where she really does not want to go, and then shove her into that place, screaming and kicking. Only then would S feel like his control is complete.

Just some thoughts.

So, maybe S is the only one that had the dream? What I've gotten so far is he sends out a rescue for her family but doesn't tell her. Therefore, she has to submit to his every whim. Only then will he send someone? Should she try to escape? I was planning on her to do just that.

Also, I want no D/s as her 'out of comfort zone' because I'm already working on one where she's new to it. I don't really want S to control M. Just hold her 'hostage' until she falls for him. Hm mm, my creative wheels are churning!

Ugh...I've got 60 pages thus far. Maybe I rushed it.

 

[allamagione]

On my submissions, I think I've gotten more feedback from women than men. It baffles me that so many women have rape/control fantasies. I don't think less of any woman who harbors such fantasies, but it does make me wonder.

Obviously I can't speak for all women with rape fantasies, but for me, it's a result of deep-rooted and often paralyzing shame over sexuality. You learn from a young age — from your mother, from your preacher, from your community — that sex is dirty and shameful, and only bad girls and sluts enjoy it. Is it really so perplexing that you can then only get off by fantasizing about being called a bad girl and a slut? In the media, in our culture, men attempt to control and dictate female sexuality. Is it truly so boggling that this would result in women turning this around for their own pleasure? Having the fantasy actually feels like a way of regaining control.

The Catch-22 is that society frowns on rape fantasies. So your solitary outlet for the shame you feel only ends up causing you more shame. It's why most of my own erotica lives safely in my mind rather than on the page. I dread what people will think of me. I feel that I must be an abomination to my own gender for having these fantasies.

 

[allamagione]

So, maybe S is the only one that had the dream? What I've gotten so far is he sends out a rescue for her family but doesn't tell her. Therefore, she has to submit to his every whim. Only then will he send someone? Should she try to escape? I was planning on her to do just that.

Also, I want no D/s as her 'out of comfort zone' because I'm already working on one where she's new to it. I don't really want S to control M. Just hold her 'hostage' until she falls for him. Hm mm, my creative wheels are churning!

Ugh...I've got 60 pages thus far. Maybe I rushed it.

If it helps, I think alternating POVs work well in this type of scenario. In reluctance (as opposed to the all-out noncon that Willie's describing), so much of the fantasy depends on the characters acting in a way that conflicts with what they are feeling on the inside.

So you have the woman, who for some reason must resist her captor's advances despite her attraction to him. And you have the man, who must be stern and unbending on the outside despite more tender feelings he might have for her on the inside.

To answer your original question... yes, this is quite popular in the category! Take your time with the internal conflict, and it should do well.

 

[lovecraft68]

Obviously I can't speak for all women with rape fantasies, but for me, it's a result of deep-rooted and often paralyzing shame over sexuality. You learn from a young age — from your mother, from your preacher, from your community — that sex is dirty and shameful, and only bad girls and sluts enjoy it. Is it really so perplexing that you can then only get off by fantasizing about being called a bad girl and a slut? In the media, in our culture, men attempt to control and dictate female sexuality. Is it truly so boggling that this would result in women turning this around for their own pleasure? Having the fantasy actually feels like a way of regaining control.

The Catch-22 is that society frowns on rape fantasies. So your solitary outlet for the shame you feel only ends up causing you more shame. It's why most of my own erotica lives safely in my mind rather than on the page. I dread what people will think of me. I feel that I must be an abomination to my own gender for having these fantasies.

Now I wonder, don't you think this is changing now?

I don't know how old you are, but that "sex is dirty" mentality instilled by a mother to a daughter is out of the 60's and down. Maybe the 70's....

But my point is it is no longer the case. Girls my daughters age (early twenties) have not been raised that sex is shameful or something you do as a "wifely chore" these days porn is every where women are not ashamed by their sexuality anymore. Unfortunately its the other extreme with story after story of 15 year old high school girls pulling trains and having BJ parties.

So what I am saying is women may still have rape fantasies, but if they are no longer brought up with the "shame" aspect so what do you think it is now? I feel its just simple lack of control. A powerful (and in fantasy a good looking man or men) is forcing you to do these things. I equate it with the "submissive gene" so to speak found in submissives. I am not comparing BDSM to rape, but I think its along those lines the difference is rape is without consent.

The non con section is a landmine category. There are reluctance stories like what the OP is discussing and then there are what I call "rape light" stories where the women miraculously and ridiculously start to enjoy it. That's out there, but so are 46ddd boobs and 12" cocks so its a porn unreality, but its fiction and we accept it. So okay she came and it went from "Don't! Stop!" to "Hey, I said don't stop!"

Then there are the flat out extreme no holds barred rape stories that are nothing short of cringe worthy. They are supposedly not allowed here, but the site is full of them. So NCR is a hard category unless you enjoy every level of it and what I find interesting is from some feedback and scores I have seen the extreme stories get hit pretty hard which makes me shake my head seeing the name of the category, but I guess the readers don;t like too much reality thrown into the fantasy.

 

[allamagione]

But my point is it is no longer the case.

OK!

You're right. I must be imagining it.

I'm delusional as well as disturbed.

 

[lovecraft68]

OK!

You're right. I must be imagining it.

I'm delusional as well as disturbed.

I didn't say at all, but I think its a philosophy that is losing ground so to speak. Women's sexuality has come a long way since all that Catholic nonsense was forced on young girls. Hell back then women were told it was okay for guys to cheat on them as long as they brought home a paycheck and mowed the lawn.

Times, they be a changin.

 

[allamagione]

Then there are the flat out extreme no holds barred rape stories that are nothing short of cringe worthy.

I know this is probably futile, but I wish you would step back and look at the language you are using. It's extremely hurtful to women with these fantasies.

This is the shaming I am speaking of. It's more sinister nowadays because it's the attempted regulation of sexual fantasy, which no one can control. So the cycle continues.

 

[lovecraft68]

I know this is probably futile, but I wish you would step back and look at the language you are using. It's extremely hurtful to women with these fantasies.

This is the shaming I am speaking of. It's more sinister nowadays because it's the attempted regulation of sexual fantasy, which no one can control. So the cycle continues.

I am saying "cringe worthy" from the point of view of a male who thinks rapists are the biggest cowards that walk this earth next to child molesters.

When a woman with rape fantasies thinks a story is hot then its through her fantasy life and nothing she would ever truly want to happen. Its just that hot dirty "shameful" thought

And perhaps you could do me a favor? Stop using shameful, fantasies are not shameful they are healthy. If you were taught they were it was by someone misleading you who were most likely mislead themselves. No fantasy is shameful. Putting them into reality could be depending what they are, but the key word is fantasy.

There are as many men squicked by rape stories as women and I think its because they think as I do, what kind of man does that or even gets off to the portrayal of it? But unlike the women who like them as fantasy the men who really enjoy them have more than a little potential to go act on them.

That is what makes them cringe worthy. Its not the story as meaningless words of fiction its the feelings those words instill in the minds of a sick fuck.

And I am not going to run down long list of R/L experience with this or get into the fact my wife deals with victims of Rape and has for over a decade. I am learning the only time reality is accepted here is if it agrees with the individuals opinions, then its truth, if it does not its BS.

 

[slyc_willie]

So, maybe S is the only one that had the dream? What I've gotten so far is he sends out a rescue for her family but doesn't tell her. Therefore, she has to submit to his every whim. Only then will he send someone? Should she try to escape? I was planning on her to do just that.

Also, I want no D/s as her 'out of comfort zone' because I'm already working on one where she's new to it. I don't really want S to control M. Just hold her 'hostage' until she falls for him. Hm mm, my creative wheels are churning!

Ugh...I've got 60 pages thus far. Maybe I rushed it.

I think allamagione, as a member of your target audience, has mentioned some good things already. I wouldn't have thought that any sort of romance in Non-Con would work, but apparently it can.

However, I personally think the aspect of her trying to escape would be a good thing to include. Not only does that graphically display her unwillingness to succumb to S, but it also sets up in the reader's mind the idea that something "deliciously nasty" is going to happen to her as punishment.

 

[allamagione]

However, I personally think the aspect of her trying to escape would be a good thing to include. Not only does that graphically display her unwillingness to succumb to S, but it also sets up in the reader's mind the idea that something "deliciously nasty" is going to happen to her as punishment.

Agreed. It would also offer a chance to ratchet up the tension on S's part. I'm thinking of the internal conflict he would feel if he's already began to fall for her at this point. He would feel like he has to punish to her, but part of him might be fighting against that, too.

I enjoy a good reluctance story as much as all-out noncon, and I think many readers of that category do as well (in fact, some prefer it). Romance is tricky to pull off in a NC story, but it can be done. I think of goldeniangel's "Being the Maid" as an excellent example of that — although she did have the word count to make it work. If you don't have the word count to make it believable, I think it's imperative that you give the reader a peek into the captor/tormenter's mind, so we can see there's more at play than sadism and a desire to control.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

Agreed. It would also offer a chance to ratchet up the tension on S's part. I'm thinking of the internal conflict he would feel if he's already began to fall for her at this point. He would feel like he has to punish to her, but part of him might be fighting against that, too.

I enjoy a good reluctance story as much as all-out noncon, and I think many readers of that category do as well (in fact, some prefer it). Romance is tricky to pull off in a NC story, but it can be done. I think of goldeniangel's "Being the Maid" as an excellent example of that — although she did have the word count to make it work. If you don't have the word count to make it believable, I think it's imperative that you give the reader a peek into the captor/tormenter's mind, so we can see there's more at play than sadism and a desire to control.

I was surprised by how well romance is received in the Noncon/Reluctance category. My most popular story (Deep Undercover) is the kind of non-rapey, give her a choice between bad alternatives style of Noncon with a huge romance thrown in. The female readers' response to the story was overwhelming, especially when they did not like how I chose to end it. The lesson I learned is that there is a huge female readership for Noncon, and they especially enjoy stories centered around a romance.

 

[Addicted2Writing]

Lots of good advice

Wow! Your comments are very thought provoking (I'm not touching the 'rape' discussion, though).

While they are helpful and very, very appreciated, I'm afraid I might have to start from 'scratch' (at 60 pages done thus far, I'm not sure how that will go. lol)

soflabbw: Romance is inevitable in my fic, but I always go overboard with it -- like, mushy crap. For this, though, I want to stay away from that. It's that infamous 'crossing the line' I always have trouble with.

alla: Oh, S will definitely have some internal conflict. I mean, most men do, right? (Just as us women do--don't flame me, please ) I am drawn to characters that are cold and aloof that eventually come around to actually be good guys.

willie: Oh, yes, don't get me wrong. M isn't going to want to be there, but I don't want her to 'fall for him' too quickly, either. That's the line I have trouble with...does she give in and enjoy it (apparently a big no-no in reluctance, or fight all the way (that's rape to me). AND I LOVE your comment of M reaching her breaking point, but in this case I'm not sure she even has one.

 

[squirrelzo]

You really need to do all of humankind a favor and spare us your theories about female sexuality.

You know Ive suspected your recent rampage against the rape culture and "misogyny" of lit wasn't all it was cracked up to be. How could someone who writes the female characters you do profess to care so much about women? It makes absolutely no sense. Thanks for confirming all my suspicions.

For all your whining, when confronted with a real woman being open and emotionally honest and vulnerable, you respond with ignorance, arrogance, dismissal, hostility, and patronizing condescension, and lookin for a fight. No, it's not about women, just like porn is not about women.

You've got some personal beef with rapists. Fuck if I know why, but whatever it is Im sure it involves your ego.


Well if you'll excuse me I have a hot, delicious rape fantasy to get to. Me and 5 horny sailors who've been at sea for 9 months. Ive been teasing and teasing them in a bar and now it's time to pay the price.

I am saying "cringe worthy" from the point of view of a male who thinks rapists are the biggest cowards that walk this earth next to child molesters.

When a woman with rape fantasies thinks a story is hot then its through her fantasy life and nothing she would ever truly want to happen. Its just that hot dirty "shameful" thought

And perhaps you could do me a favor? Stop using shameful, fantasies are not shameful they are healthy. If you were taught they were it was by someone misleading you who were most likely mislead themselves. No fantasy is shameful. Putting them into reality could be depending what they are, but the key word is fantasy.

There are as many men squicked by rape stories as women and I think its because they think as I do, what kind of man does that or even gets off to the portrayal of it? But unlike the women who like them as fantasy the men who really enjoy them have more than a little potential to go act on them.

That is what makes them cringe worthy. Its not the story as meaningless words of fiction its the feelings those words instill in the minds of a sick fuck.

And I am not going to run down long list of R/L experience with this or get into the fact my wife deals with victims of Rape and has for over a decade. I am learning the only time reality is accepted here is if it agrees with the individuals opinions, then its truth, if it does not its BS.

 

[robertreams]

I would say only this: Remember it is often the slave that rules the master! The one thing the sadist can never say to the masochist is NO!

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Now I wonder, don't you think this is changing now?

I don't know how old you are, but that "sex is dirty" mentality instilled by a mother to a daughter is out of the 60's and down. Maybe the 70's....

But my point is it is no longer the case. Girls my daughters age (early twenties) have not been raised that sex is shameful or something you do as a "wifely chore" these days porn is every where women are not ashamed by their sexuality anymore. Unfortunately its the other extreme with story after story of 15 year old high school girls pulling trains and having BJ parties.

So what I am saying is women may still have rape fantasies, but if they are no longer brought up with the "shame" aspect so what do you think it is now? I feel its just simple lack of control. A powerful (and in fantasy a good looking man or men) is forcing you to do these things. I equate it with the "submissive gene" so to speak found in submissives. I am not comparing BDSM to rape, but I think its along those lines the difference is rape is without consent.

The non con section is a landmine category. There are reluctance stories like what the OP is discussing and then there are what I call "rape light" stories where the women miraculously and ridiculously start to enjoy it. That's out there, but so are 46ddd boobs and 12" cocks so its a porn unreality, but its fiction and we accept it. So okay she came and it went from "Don't! Stop!" to "Hey, I said don't stop!"

Then there are the flat out extreme no holds barred rape stories that are nothing short of cringe worthy. They are supposedly not allowed here, but the site is full of them. So NCR is a hard category unless you enjoy every level of it and what I find interesting is from some feedback and scores I have seen the extreme stories get hit pretty hard which makes me shake my head seeing the name of the category, but I guess the readers don;t like too much reality thrown into the fantasy.

I lived thru the 60s and don't recognize the world you imagine; I find todays world more restrictive and perilous than the 60s or 50s really were. Going further back folks were downright libertine, with no age limits.