Interview with George RR Martin

[PennLady]

This is an internet controversy and nothing more. Jaime and Cersei sex scenes always follow the same dynamic: Jaime initiates physicality, Cersei voices a tepid objection, Jaime persists, Cersei gives in and they fuck. It happens the same way every time, including this time. Go back and look at their prior scenes and you'll see it.

I watched this with my wife, who was outraged that anyone would call it rape. If it was rape, then why was Cersei kissing Jaime and wrapping her leg around him? My sisters made similar points.

I think there are two main reasons why people are so upset about this. First, it "doesn't follow the books." It's true that the scene in the books is far more obviously consensual, and happens as you describe above. I do think the scene in the TV show is much more ambiguous and leans more towards nonconsent, at least.

But I think debating some of these finer points won't get anyone anywhere. For example, her legs -- well, he's bigger than she is and stronger, and he's manhandling her. Her legs only had so many places to go. So was that acquiescence or not?

Anyway, in the book, Cersei puts up token resistance but it's more about the inapproporiateness of the time and place. But as I said in another post, not only was the sex scene different, but so was the entire lead up to the sex.

The problem for some viewers is that they have short attention spans, they have forgotten who Jaime Lanister really is, and they are applying 20th century definitions of rape to the fictional kingdom of Westeros. Where was the outcry when Joffrey beat women, forced them to use evil looking dildos on each other, and he shot one with a crossbow? How about Craster raping generations of his daughters? Cat's crazy sister nursing her 12 year old son--in public? Viserys trading his underage sister for an army (he thought)? I could go on and on. The Jaime/Cersei scene doesn't even crack the top 10 of worst things to happen on this show.

Oh I agree, and this leads me to the second reason I think people are so upset. Jamie was turning into a nice guy, or at least a nicer guy. He was obviously reconsidering his life and his choices and seemed to be becoming the closest thing to a "good guy" this show ever has, after Tyrion.

Joffrey was clearly a black hat, and a psycho to boot, and he never changed or showed signs of changing. Craster also fit firmly into the "bad guy" mold, as did Viserys. Lysa Arryn isn't bad so much as crazy, but she's firmly crazy. When they did awful things, it was "okay" in the sense that we expected such things of them. We expected, or hoped, for more from Jamie, and that is why they're so upset.

 

[AMoveableBeast]

Oh I agree, and this leads me to the second reason I think people are so upset. Jamie was turning into a nice guy, or at least a nicer guy. He was obviously reconsidering his life and his choices and seemed to be becoming the closest thing to a "good guy" this show ever has, after Tyrion.

Ummm, you mean apart from the Starks, Sam, Dany, all of the flawed yet ultimately loyal and compassionate minion characters (Jorah, Joer, Ros, Ser D), the strange but noble exotics (Grey Worm, Shae, A fair amount of the horse lords, Wildlings) and pretty much anyone that isn't a Bolton, a Betrayer, a White Walker, or a Lannister?

The whole redemption of Jamie puts me in mind of the old talk shows where a former heroin addict--who had done reprehensible acts--would come on and talk about being clean for a month and people would applaud like crazy. Meanwhile, a man who'd always done his best and had mostly walked the line would come on and talk about having impure thoughts about his neighbor occasionally and be generally considered the scum of the earth and pretty much get booed off the stage.

People show more compassion and forgiveness for a villain who becomes less of a villain than for a hero who slightly stumbles. Americans love a good comeback story.

Also, I couldn't agree more with softbbw about the relatively overblown nature of this internet outrage. The scene seems basically the same to me, just more dramatic for the premium channel audience. I'm a purist when it comes to my literature, but this just seems like a fan-boy hissy fit.

No offense intended. I am a huge fan of the books, as well. And prefer them to the show.

 

[Cruel2BKind]

Ummm, you mean apart from the Starks, Sam, Dany, all of the flawed yet ultimately loyal and compassionate minion characters (Jorah, Joer, Ros, Ser D), the strange but noble exotics (Grey Worm, Shae, A fair amount of the horse lords, Wildlings) and pretty much anyone that isn't a Bolton, a Betrayer, a White Walker, or a Lannister?

The whole redemption of Jamie puts me in mind of the old talk shows where a former heroin addict--who had done reprehensible acts--would come on and talk about being clean for a month and people would applaud like crazy. Meanwhile, a man who'd always done his best and had mostly walked the line would come on and talk about having impure thoughts about his neighbor occasionally and be generally considered the scum of the earth and pretty much get booed off the stage.

People show more compassion and forgiveness for a villain who becomes less of a villain than for a hero who slightly stumbles. Americans love a good comeback story.

Also, I couldn't agree more with softbbw about the relatively overblown nature of this internet outrage. The scene seems basically the same to me, just more dramatic for the premium channel audience. I'm a purist when it comes to my literature, but this just seems like a fan-boy hissy fit.

No offense intended. I am a huge fan of the books, as well. And prefer them to the show.

Thing is, if G.R.R. had written in the rape scene, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Jezebel wouldn't have written an article about it (unless it was about just the rape on GoT in general) and people wouldn't be so fucking upset.

I mean, yes. A few people who watch the show are angry that the Westeros's luckiest Lannister is getting his rape on, but the non-book-readers are getting fuel and justification by a large and righteously angry group of book-readers. Even G.R.R. claims he had nothing to do with that scene.

The show makers have changed a lot of things from the books, such as omitting or adding characters, having the characters have more interactions, or interactions that weren't in the books, but this change just feels wrong. It was an already violent and already rapey show made from violent and rapey material. So when they change it to make it even MORE rapey, it feels wrong.

 

[PennLady]

Ummm, you mean apart from the Starks, Sam, Dany, all of the flawed yet ultimately loyal and compassionate minion characters (Jorah, Joer, Ros, Ser D), the strange but noble exotics (Grey Worm, Shae, A fair amount of the horse lords, Wildlings) and pretty much anyone that isn't a Bolton, a Betrayer, a White Walker, or a Lannister?

Actually yes. Not that those aren't good guys, or at least better than most, but I don't think people are as invested in them emotionally -- aside from probably Dany and Jon Snow -- as they are in Jamie and Tyrion. The loyal secondary characters are great, but most of them don't have too many arcs of their own, so we relate to them via the others, the ones they serve like Jorah serves Dany.

Jamie is a main character, and he was becoming a better person and then regressed.

People show more compassion and forgiveness for a villain who becomes less of a villain than for a hero who slightly stumbles. Americans love a good comeback story.

Yes, which again is why I think many are upset about the Jamie/Cersei scene. Jamie was becoming a hero, and he stumbled. People don't like that.

Also, has to be said, that whole thing was pretty much ignored in this last episode. Cersei seemed to act no different to Jamie afterwards, at least not to me. She was cold and harsh, but then she has been for a while.

The show makers have changed a lot of things from the books, such as omitting or adding characters, having the characters have more interactions, or interactions that weren't in the books, but this change just feels wrong. It was an already violent and already rapey show made from violent and rapey material. So when they change it to make it even MORE rapey, it feels wrong.

If you don't like the scene, no problem. I'm not saying anyone should like or not like it.

I'm kind of indifferent to it, because it is in a show that I watch and seemed plausible enough to me, and aside from the time I spend watching it, it makes little difference in my life. It may not have been in the books, but that doesn't bothe rme, either. This is what they did, and I can either keep watching or not, and at least for now, I'll keep watching.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I watched this with my wife, who was outraged that anyone would call it rape. If it was rape, then why was Cersei kissing Jaime and wrapping her leg around him? My sisters made similar points.

#1: Sexual assault victims react in all kinds of different ways. Sometimes they don't fit the neat little stereotypes of how victims are supposed to behave. Denial is one coping mechanism - trying to convince themselves it was consensual. Another is trying to get the guy off as quickly as possible, so it'll be over and he won't hurt her.

#2: Even if we pretend for the sake of argument that every rape victim screams and cries throughout... TV shows are written by human beings who don't always do a good job of characterisation. Sometimes because they're bad writers, sometimes because it's not in the show's interests to get it right.

Call me old-fashioned, but in my book when somebody says "no" (repeatedly, at that) pressing on is rape, pure and simple. (Except in a negotiated BDSM context, which I presume this wasn't.)

The problem for some viewers is that they have short attention spans, they have forgotten who Jaime Lanister really is, and they are applying 20th century definitions of rape to the fictional kingdom of Westeros. Where was the outcry when Joffrey beat women, forced them to use evil looking dildos on each other, and he shot one with a crossbow?

Actually, that's a big part of why I stopped watching. My partner still watches, so I pick up bits and pieces here and there, but I find the cruelty and rape fixation just too much.

That said, at least Joffrey's acknowledged as a piece of shit. With Jaime, because he's become something of a sympathetic character, people make excuses for him and try to tell themselves that forcing yourself on a woman who says "no" isn't really rape.

Cat's crazy sister nursing her 12 year old son--in public? Viserys trading his underage sister for an army (he thought)? I could go on and on. The Jaime/Cersei scene doesn't even crack the top 10 of worst things to happen on this show.

Granted Lyssa is screwed up, but...seriously, you're saying breastfeeding a 12-year-old is worse than forcibly having sex with a woman who's saying "no"?

 

[SecondCircle]

I might add as a long time fan that though I cwn see the places where the show has deviated from the books, this has to be the one that has strayed the least from the source material of the ones I have watched.