Votes aren't that important. BUT...

[TxRad]

But to a large degree, that's what it is. There is one GM category, and one Lesbian category for readers who want those stories of same-sex couples to go to.

Look, Pilot does have a point. It's far easier, if you want to read hetero sex, to avoid the kinds of hetero sex you don't like and find the ones you do, because of all the categories. If I don't want to read incest, I don't click on it. Or BDSM or whatever. If I want a het romance, I just go to Romance, and there it is.

But for GM, or Lesbian, readers, it's not so simple. For the most part, they have to sort through the entire GM or Lesbian category. Much is made of keywords and tags, and no doubt they are useful, but they aren't the whole solution. I have never used them to find stories, that I can think of. I don't know how many readers do. And why should someone who wants to read a Lesbian or GM story have to comb through the whole category to find the kink (or lack thereof) that they like?



I think a lot of the problem here is what you're used to. Over at SOL, there are no categories. There are tons of tags. If you want to read a lesbian sf bdsm story featuring incest and romance and anal and whatever the hell else, you can see by the tags if it's what you want. That also takes away the struggle many Lit authors have when they have various themes but have to pick one that trumps the others, even if it doesn't really.

Lit is set up by categories, which is limiting in many ways, but it's the way it's set up and no doubt most regular users are used to it. But a user from SOL or a similar site might come here and find Lit's setup restrictive, and be peeved that they can't more easily find a story they'd read.

It might also help, as some have said, if the keyword tags were at the beginning of a Lit story, or at least on the first page, instead of the last one.

Sorry to say this since everything you say is right on but no one cares one way or the other. This thread is being used to attack Pilot and nothing else.

No one cares about the GM category or anything constructive. Maybe you and one or two others but the rest is pure and simple fifth grade bullshit.

 

[PennLady]

Sorry to say this since everything you say is right on but no one cares one way or the other. This thread is being used to attack Pilot and nothing else.

No one cares about the GM category or anything constructive. Maybe you and one or two others but the rest is pure and simple fifth grade bullshit.

Yeah, probably. Couldn't help myself, though.

 

[_Lynn_]

Yeah, probably. Couldn't help myself, though.

Just for the record, I agree with your previous post.

 

[PennLady]

Just for the record, I agree with your previous post.

Why, thanks.

 

[SecondCircle]

Pennladys response? That's exactly the response I was looking for. She provided insight and a different perspective that I myself hadn't thought about. Her response was carefully worded, not rude or offensive toward anyone, and was put in a way that was thoughtful and helped stimulate thought in the discussion we're having at the moment. Why do the differences of our opinions have to seem like taking up gang colors? I'm open minded, and can sympathize with most viewpoints. Thanks to PennLady, I can examine the opposite perspective more clearly, without having to feel like we are at one another's throats. (Tips hat to the Lady. ...I don't have a hat. I'm making the motion.)

On her point, as well as Pilot's, I can see where it could be a hassle to have all those sub categories buried in the GM category. Especially for a submitting author. It does limit that author to THAT category. Pilot has said he doesn't believe that's a conspiracy against same sex. We know that. It's just the eh, side effect? of having a category system. And as JKendall pointed out, it isn't causing just outright hellfire and pandemonium. Most GM readers seem content, but of course it's what people are used to I suppose.

I personally don't think any of us are at any kind of horribly unbearable stress when reading and posting here. We still submit to our audience, and they show up here to read everyday. They may vote. They rarely speak. And there will always be those that abuse whatever system that may be in place that was meant to help. But I still think it works.

 

[lovecraft68]

Sorry to say this since everything you say is right on but no one cares one way or the other. This thread is being used to attack Pilot and nothing else.

No one cares about the GM category or anything constructive. Maybe you and one or two others but the rest is pure and simple fifth grade bullshit.

And the same people never care that the biggest fifth grader on the site has run off newb and established lit author both in his quest to always shove his shit down people's throats.

His whining and bitching are not about the homo/hetero rivalry he wished existed. It is not about the fairness of anything. Everyone here writes under the same rules and gets the bad with the good.

he froths and bitches because he feels his work is held back because of category placement

No one else complains in that category, not that I have seen as far as votes/views/comments

You people can delude yourselves all you want that Pilot cares about anything but himself, but truth is if he had a sea of red H's a boat load of comments won contests and was ruling top lists....

All would be well.

His sniping and griping is jealousy-and jealous of what? Who the hell know-and his stubborn refusal to believe that people here do not trip over themselves to genuflect to his stories.

A good friend of mine came here awhile back, I begged him to come post his work here and come to the AH. he did and was run into the ground by that asshole.

So as far as I am concerned Laurel runs a free speech forum which gives Pilot the right to be snarky lying cyber bullying fraud.

And gives me the right to continue to expose his shit and give him every bit of what he gives others and more.

Don't like it there is iggy my friends.

Pilot has no choice to be here because no moderated forum chat board would tolerate him.

he will always be here because he has no where else to go.

Me? I'm here for ambiance and to enjoy giving back what I've been given by the biggest troll on this forum.

 

[JKendallDane]

Pennladys response? <snip>

On her point, as well as Pilot's, I can see where it could be a hassle to have all those sub categories buried in the GM category. Especially for a submitting author. It does limit that author to THAT category. Pilot has said he doesn't believe that's a conspiracy against same sex. We know that. It's just the eh, side effect? of having a category system. And as JKendall pointed out, it isn't causing just outright hellfire and pandemonium. Most GM readers seem content, but of course it's what people are used to I suppose.

I can agree with her comments, and even with some of pilot's to a point. Her mention of having the keyword tags at the beginning of a story certainly has merit, and it made me think of the one change that could easily solve a lot of the problem, if in fact one exists.

Adding the link for search (which also gets you to the 'advanced search' function) to the top of each of the category hub pages...right alongside the "browse all (whichever category) stories"...where it can easily be seen and accessed. Then if you want to find gay male stories with leathermen and twinks or only straight romances that include BDSM and dinosaurs or those numerous but somewhat elusive bisexual stories spread across all the categories, you simply click and add the tags you want to get results for.

I don't know if the GM readers fall into the "content" column...perhaps they are just smarter than the average bear and use the search function to find their picnic baskets.

 

[lovecraft68]

Well maybe incest should be sub categorized

Mother/son

Daddy/daughter

bro/sis etc....

Non human werewolves/vamps'/zombies/ cat people etc....

Group- 3 way 4 way orgy gang bang, pulling trains/running trains...

Fetish- watersports feet latex....

you get the point there are kinks within kinks and fetishes within fetishes(actually fetish may very well be the broadest category here)

The categories are basic guidelines and people have to find their way from there.

In addition to key word tags being good with your title and tag line can go a long way towards letting a reader know what's in your story.

The one thing I will and have in the past agreed on with Pilot is the "bisexual category poll" seems like a mean tease and I feel there was never any intent behind it.

 

[LazyAssReader]

And the same people never care that the biggest fifth grader on the site has run off newb and established lit author both in his quest to always shove his shit down people's throats.

His whining and bitching are not about the homo/hetero rivalry he wished existed. It is not about the fairness of anything. Everyone here writes under the same rules and gets the bad with the good.

he froths and bitches because he feels his work is held back because of category placement

No one else complains in that category, not that I have seen as far as votes/views/comments

You people can delude yourselves all you want that Pilot cares about anything but himself, but truth is if he had a sea of red H's a boat load of comments won contests and was ruling top lists....

All would be well.

His sniping and griping is jealousy-and jealous of what? Who the hell know-and his stubborn refusal to believe that people here do not trip over themselves to genuflect to his stories.

A good friend of mine came here awhile back, I begged him to come post his work here and come to the AH. he did and was run into the ground by that asshole.

So as far as I am concerned Laurel runs a free speech forum which gives Pilot the right to be snarky lying cyber bullying fraud.

And gives me the right to continue to expose his shit and give him every bit of what he gives others and more.

Don't like it there is iggy my friends.

Pilot has no choice to be here because no moderated forum chat board would tolerate him.

he will always be here because he has no where else to go.

Me? I'm here for ambiance and to enjoy giving back what I've been given by the biggest troll on this forum.

Again, off the wall, but what does it matter?

Look at all the crazy racist shit that gets slung here it makes me roll me eyes, but I stay out of it, because end of the day I'm never going to say anything that will change them.

That's why I don;t argue in general on chat boards and even for the most part in r/l

Think about it of you think say white and I think say black what is either one of us ever going to say that will make the other go "hey, you know..."

People are deep seeded in their beliefs and fighting that is a waste of energy.

That's just my opinion and if someone makes my eyes roll to that point there is always iggy

ROFLMAO

 

[LazyAssReader]

Can someone name all the authors that were supposedly ran off the board?

 

[sr71plt]

I expect we'll see the eyes pop out of Lovecraft's head at any moment as he rolls around and foams at the mouth. Can a guy get any crazier?

 

[Laurel]

But to a large degree, that's what it is. There is one GM category, and one Lesbian category for readers who want those stories of same-sex couples to go to.

Look, Pilot does have a point. It's far easier, if you want to read hetero sex, to avoid the kinds of hetero sex you don't like and find the ones you do, because of all the categories. If I don't want to read incest, I don't click on it. Or BDSM or whatever. If I want a het romance, I just go to Romance, and there it is.

But for GM, or Lesbian, readers, it's not so simple. For the most part, they have to sort through the entire GM or Lesbian category. Much is made of keywords and tags, and no doubt they are useful, but they aren't the whole solution. I have never used them to find stories, that I can think of. I don't know how many readers do. And why should someone who wants to read a Lesbian or GM story have to comb through the whole category to find the kink (or lack thereof) that they like?



I think a lot of the problem here is what you're used to. Over at SOL, there are no categories. There are tons of tags. If you want to read a lesbian sf bdsm story featuring incest and romance and anal and whatever the hell else, you can see by the tags if it's what you want. That also takes away the struggle many Lit authors have when they have various themes but have to pick one that trumps the others, even if it doesn't really.

Lit is set up by categories, which is limiting in many ways, but it's the way it's set up and no doubt most regular users are used to it. But a user from SOL or a similar site might come here and find Lit's setup restrictive, and be peeved that they can't more easily find a story they'd read.

It might also help, as some have said, if the keyword tags were at the beginning of a Lit story, or at least on the first page, instead of the last one.

Lit was created as a static site in 1998, then moved to a MySQL-powered system around 2001 - long before things like easily navigated/linked Tagging and Keywords were a thing. The size of our archive (I think 100,000+ stories now) and readership make radical changes difficult. We are slowly slowly moving in a direction away from Categories - which, as you said, are extremely bulky things - and towards navigation via things like Search, Tagging, and reader-powered things to be announced later.

We spent last year rebuilding/documenting the underbelly of the site, as well as getting the structure/concept of the whole shebang down. Additionally, we radically rebuilt the Literotica Android App. Mobile reading is a huuuuge thing. People want to read on their phone - particularly things they don't want others to know they are reading.

Everything takes way longer than you all and I would like, but things will happen. Slowly.

 

[alwayswantedto]

<deleted>

 

[Bramblethorn]

Lit was created as a static site in 1998, then moved to a MySQL-powered system around 2001 - long before things like easily navigated/linked Tagging and Keywords were a thing. The size of our archive (I think 100,000+ stories now) and readership make radical changes difficult. We are slowly slowly moving in a direction away from Categories - which, as you said, are extremely bulky things - and towards navigation via things like Search, Tagging, and reader-powered things to be announced later.

Ah, this is good to hear. I think a beefed-up search/tagging system would address most of my gripes.

So then... how do you have a bisexual story? A true one? A straight guy experimenting with another guy? Guy+Guy fits GM too well. Those stories I've seen at GM and do well. Two girls that are bisexual? Technically that's a Girl+Girl story. Fits Lesbian sex better, and THAT is well received there as well.

So what then? Are "Bisex Category" stories just two bisexual people? A series where a guy has sex with his wife in one chapter and his boyfriend in the next?

Or a story where a character has sex with two different people on separate occasions in the same chapter. Or where bisexuality is a major plot element and it makes sense to categorise the story by overall theme instead of confusing readers by putting individual chapters in different places.

(Also... maybe GM readers are cool with a bit of M-F content, but from some of the comments I've seen in LS, posting M-F content there is likely to get a hostile reaction.)

As far as there being like twenty hetero categories and only one of each same sex category, I don't really see it as a disadvantage. When you say it like that it makes you think "huh. That is kinda unfair to a submitting author."

But... it's the way that makes sense to me. I mean, what are we gonna do? Add Gay Romance and Lesbian BDSM and Gay Horror and Gay Erotic Couplings and Lesbian Loving Wives? Just a whole other half of Lit dedicated to same sex categories for every scenario?

As a reader, I would be fucking BAFFLED. There would be so many split ends that they stop becoming categories and are TAGS.

If it's just "too many categories" that's bugging you here, how would you feel about making room for more queer categories by scrapping half of the existing categories? Or is there something special about straight readers & writers that really needs that extra detail?

Anyway, the categories are primarily for readers, that they might read in their chosen niche. Each category does a good job of harnessing the main elements of the story.

Male+Male. GM. I wanna read a romance involving two men. Easiest found in GM. Click.

Yep - but you need to get past a fair bit of non-romance content in that category to find what you're after. Readers looking for straight romance don't have that problem.

Femdom? Bdsm.

That's great if you're into het femdom. If you're into lesbian D&S, it's much less obvious where to look for it - and whichever category you pick, you have to filter through lots of other stuff that doesn't meet your requirements.

 

[SecondCircle]

I think the categories work from say a basic bare bones standpoint. Sort of a shortcut to the "main element" of a story. That's not to say the system is just absolutely perfect. For the GM dilemma, it'd be cool to have a readership one day where we don't need a GM or LS category. Those stories could just fit right along with the other categories beside the Het material. That would take a readership that's not going to be offended by gay or les stories if they come across them. Looking at the tags or having said tags at the beginning of the work like someone pointed out could help that along.

But reaching out and grabbing the original topic, how does that affect the votes in GM and Les categories? (I'm not saying it doesn't I'm actually asking a question here, in hopes someone can provide a bit of insight. My future works may go in one or both of those cats.) Does it impact voting or readership in general? To post same sex in those respective cats being limited to doing so?

I'm asking because I really don't know. Seems like there are different takes on it from a couple of GM authors. Would it help with readership for say a GM story to be posted among other Cats?

 

[PennLady]

Everything takes way longer than you all and I would like, but things will happen. Slowly.

Thanks for the explanation, Laurel. I wasn't complaining, I hope you realize. Just comparing.

There are people here that work in the industry and realize how long it takes to redesign and build upon a legacy system, especially on the fly and with limited resources. We all hope it is done soon, perhaps yesterday, but can obviously live with what you've provided.

Absolutely. If we hated it that much, we'd all go elsewhere, wouldn't we?

Ah, this is good to hear. I think a beefed-up search/tagging system would address most of my gripes.

I think the other problem with tagging on this site, perhaps, is lack of standard tags. If there was a list to pick from, instead of people making up their own, that might help. Although I think people should be allowed to add their own, to highlight other things about their story.

Yep - but you need to get past a fair bit of non-romance content in that category to find what you're after. Readers looking for straight romance don't have that problem.
...
That's great if you're into het femdom. If you're into lesbian D&S, it's much less obvious where to look for it - and whichever category you pick, you have to filter through lots of other stuff that doesn't meet your requirements.

Exactly. That's the kind of thing the tags at SOL are good for. And could be good for here. But again, I'm not complaining about Lit's setup. It's worked for me, since I write pretty firmly within the categories established. And since it's free and I didn't set it up, I'll go along with what's here.

 

[Laurel]

Thanks for the explanation, Laurel. I wasn't complaining, I hope you realize. Just comparing.

Understood. Not complaining - just explaining, and agreeing.

I think the other problem with tagging on this site, perhaps, is lack of standard tags. If there was a list to pick from, instead of people making up their own, that might help. Although I think people should be allowed to add their own, to highlight other things about their story.

I agree with this. I've got a list of improvements to the tagging that I think would help. Manu and our developer have their lists as well.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

Understood. Not complaining - just explaining, and agreeing.



I agree with this. I've got a list of improvements to the tagging that I think would help. Manu and our developer have their lists as well.

I don't know if it's possible, but moving the tags to the front of the story would be most helpful. Also, displaying perhaps the first four or five tags with the story listing. I've got one more--adding a field listing the various types of sex involved, such as MF, FF, MM, FMF, MFM, etc., and displaying that with the story and in the listings.

 

[TxRad]

I don't know if it's possible, but moving the tags to the front of the story would be most helpful. Also, displaying perhaps the first four or five tags with the story listing. I've got one more--adding a field listing the various types of sex involved, such as MF, FF, MM, FMF, MFM, etc., and displaying that with the story and in the listings.

My only question is who is going to go in and set these tags for the 100,000 stories already posted?

It's a good idea but it's a little late. New stories wouldn't be a problem and maybe the authors still around could do their own for older stories. Lots of time involved for a small staff that is overloaded as it is.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

My only question is who is going to go in and set these tags for the 100,000 stories already posted?

It's a good idea but it's a little late. New stories wouldn't be a problem and maybe the authors still around could do their own for older stories. Lots of time involved for a small staff that is overloaded as it is.

I agree. There's no way I can think of to apply needed fixes to the stories already posted.

 

[PennLady]

I agree. There's no way I can think of to apply needed fixes to the stories already posted.

Me, too. I think authors would have to go back for the old stories and tag them, if they were so inclined. But to me that's just the nature of the constant changes and advancements of things on the web. You can only retrofit so much.

 

[JKendallDane]

Lit was created as a static site in 1998, then moved to a MySQL-powered system around 2001 - long before things like easily navigated/linked Tagging and Keywords were a thing. The size of our archive (I think 100,000+ stories now) and readership make radical changes difficult. We are slowly slowly moving in a direction away from Categories - which, as you said, are extremely bulky things - and towards navigation via things like Search, Tagging, and reader-powered things to be announced later.

When you factor in that the 100,000+ figure also includes multiple chapter stories along with full blown series and novels, it quickly inflates to a nearly 300,000 individual submissions archive. As clunky and bulky and flawed as we might find to nit-pick and whine about occasionally, Lit is still the unchallenged #1 site and after 15 years is still *THE* spot to be and come to when it comes to written erotica.

Sometimes messing too much with long term success isn't always the wisest move. Sure you tweak and fine tune and add or subtract things when it makes sense, but any major change comes with huge risks. I have no problem with cautious forward motion. Getting readers to recognize the value of the search function, and us authors to concentrate more on our keyword tag selections are two good forward moves.

I think a desire and need for the categories will always exist; but as far as overall navigation, once a story disappears from the new listings or drops off the top lists, search and keywords will be more critical than any individual fan base we have built.

 

[CarlusMagnus]

Me, too. I think authors would have to go back for the old stories and tag them, if they were so inclined. But to me that's just the nature of the constant changes and advancements of things on the web. You can only retrofit so much.

I'd say, give authors the privilege of (a) tagging their old work or (b) having readers given the ability to vote for tags--the tags to be listed with their tallies. For stories whose authors decline option (a) either actively or passively (by not responding), option (b) should become the default.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I think the categories work from say a basic bare bones standpoint. Sort of a shortcut to the "main element" of a story.

I think part of the reason some of us are griping about this is the question of what counts as the "main element". It's a little like hearing somebody say:

"Bob's a structural engineer, Chris is a public relations consultant, Julian's a lawyer for the Catholic Church, and Ravi here is Indian."

But reaching out and grabbing the original topic, how does that affect the votes in GM and Les categories? (I'm not saying it doesn't I'm actually asking a question here, in hopes someone can provide a bit of insight. My future works may go in one or both of those cats.) Does it impact voting or readership in general? To post same sex in those respective cats being limited to doing so?

It's hard to say for sure; it's not the sort of thing where you can run a controlled experiment, and only about 5-10% of the people who vote on my stuff leave a comment. Most of those, both votes and comments, have been generous. But I do get some that speak to the limitations of the categorisation system. Paraphrasing from memory:

"Boring and slow, just get on with the sex." - I suspect this person was looking for Lesbian Erotic Couplings and hit mine instead, which was more Lesbian Romance. (Or maybe it just was boring and slow even for romance, but I prefer to think it was a category issue ;-)

"I discovered this by accident, I don't usually read Lesbian stories but I like the romance in this one." - Leaves me wondering if there are other romance-friendly readers who'd give it a try if it was easier to identify the Lesbian Romance sub-genre.

I don't get a lot of those comments, and I don't think my romance story has suffered much from categorisation because romances are pretty popular with that readership - I think a large chunk of the toplist stories are romance. But I can imagine it would be a lot harder for a story in a niche-y subgenre that pushes people's squick buttons, e.g. lesbian with NC or heavy BDSM.

I think the other problem with tagging on this site, perhaps, is lack of standard tags. If there was a list to pick from, instead of people making up their own, that might help. Although I think people should be allowed to add their own, to highlight other things about their story.

Yeah, this is definitely a consideration. Tagging stuff on Smashwords is a nightmare - do I tag as "queer" and "romance" or "queer romance" or "same-sex romance" or "f-f" or "lesbian" or...?

 

[SecondCircle]

I can agree Bramble, though when I say main elements of a story, I'm not that narrow minded to think that because a story involves same sex that THAT is the main element. But sadly... many readers do. That's what lots of people are calling the "squick" factor. For some reason, people get all butthurt (no pun intended) when any GM gets in their categories. Cept for GS, they're a pretty tolerant bunch, but that's if a woman is involved.

I think that, more than anything, is why GM and LS and even TS/CD has their own cats. Not saying that's right, but that it's sorta organized that way for the readers I guess. And I don't think that they should have to "drink from only that water fountain." But I'd say until some sort of progression is made with tags and search functions as it's being discussed here, as long as it's not causing a meltdown with readers and writers, then it may be the best way.

I don't think I would have been baffled (having a "gay" everything and "straight" everything) because of the number of cats that would create. It would just be strange to me as a reader to look and see a Gay Romance cat, a Les Romance cat, a Trans Romance cat, and a straight romance cat, and so on for each category. I'd think we why stop there? Why not Asian Romance cat, a Afram Romance cat etc. etc. I wouldn't want that kind of over segregation. That was why I was against all those categories. It'd be cool if readers wouldn't mind Gay and Straight stories dropped in every cat out there.

Just uh, clearing that up, not disagreeing or intending any offense.