Votes aren't that important. BUT...

[JKendallDane]

I guess you didn't catch on to the "over twenty categories" to choose from for hetero stories and essentially one, no matter what the topic of the story, for GM. It's sort of weird that you haven't noticed that.

Beyond that, you're free to get the impressions you wish to take from the activity of the Web site. I think you've just ignored the thrust of what I was trying to post to this part of the discussion--which essentially was a "don't sweat it and enjoy what you've got" message and I'd rather be writing the stories then debating the minutia--especially if I have to work up from convincing you that "over twenty" opportunities is more advantageous than "just one"--or, in the case of bi, none.

It was caught and has been noticed. "So what?" was my point that you seemed to have missed.

Even with "over twenty caterories" as options, I can't see doing a story or series with gay males as the main characters; and that involves BDSM, incest, mature, et al; and expecting to pop it into any of those categories without begging for it to be abused by unsuspecting readers. Just because those stories get automatically popped into GM, doesn't mean we are somehow being discriminated against...more like Laurel is just being proactive so the whole site doesn't turn into a Loving Wives type of comment & voting nuclear war zone.

I didn't ignore the thrust of the "don't sweat it" comment. I agree with that wholeheartedly. What I don't agree with you on, is that GM authors are somehow being discriminated against and that translating to being disadvantaged somehow.

 

[sr71plt]

I saw a great suggestion on another forum the other day to bring home whether or not there's a disparity of opportunity (and ease of a reader to zero in on what they are looking for--and for authors to avoid "wrong category!" slamming) on Literotica. Do away with all of the categories and just let the readers keyword search across the collection. Now wouldn't that be totally fair? If that gives someone a clutchy feeling, they probably need to do some thinking about their fundamental biases.

That way there'd just be one "top lists" page, rather than a bunch of category pages, each providing extra attention to highest rated stories, most popular authors, etc. by lots and lots of categories, all but two categories being by a particular type of story (the other two being by sexual preference--set off by over twenty categories based on heterosexuality).

 

[PennLady]

I saw a great suggestion on another forum the other day to bring home whether or not there's a disparity of opportunity (and ease of a reader to zero in on what they are looking for--and for authors to avoid "wrong category!" slamming) on Literotica. Do away with all of the categories and just let the readers keyword search across the collection. Now wouldn't that be totally fair? If that gives someone a clutchy feeling, they probably need to do some thinking about their fundamental biases.

This is, to some extent, what SOL (StoriesOnline.net) does. When you go to their site, when you see a list of the new stories for example, each story has a bunch of tags to let you know what's in it. A story can cross all kinds of "categories," the reader is informed, and no one has to read anything they may not like.

I don't know if they do top lists of any kind.

 

[Dream_Operator]

I've found that the rating\voting on my stories at this site to be pretty meaningless. Less than half of one percent of the readers voted and only a tiny fraction of that leave comments.

I've also noticed abnormal voting patterns when:
- I entered a contest.
- gave honest, constructive feedback on another author's story (and was attacked by the author's legion of fans).
- made comments on the message board about politics, religion, or other topics.
- or pissed off someone for reasons unknown.

It all seems petty and immature to me, so I don't really pay that much attention to my scores.

What I have found to be better metrics are:

- Post a new story and see if the views of your other, older stories go up. If they do, it means readers like the current story and want to check out your other stuff.

- For series stories: how much does the readership drop off on subsequent chapters. For my (two) series stories: 72% of the readers of the first chapter read the second, and of those 80% read the third.

Neither of the above can be manipulated (one way or another), and are truer indications that people are connecting with your writing.

What's the point of having an "H" story, if only three or four thousand readers read it? And half of the voters are you and your friends.

 

[sr71plt]

I've also noticed abnormal voting patterns when:
- I entered a contest.
- gave honest, constructive feedback on another author's story (and was attacked by the author's legion of fans).
- made comments on the message board about politics, religion, or other topics.
- or pissed off someone for reasons unknown.

It all seems petty and immature to me, so I don't really pay that much attention to my scores.

There you go.

 

[StrangeLife]

This is, to some extent, what SOL (StoriesOnline.net) does. When you go to their site, when you see a list of the new stories for example, each story has a bunch of tags to let you know what's in it. A story can cross all kinds of "categories," the reader is informed, and no one has to read anything they may not like.

I don't know if they do top lists of any kind.

That would actually be a really good addition to Lit.

A story with a married BDSM couple for instance might be of interest for LW as well as the fetish crowd. Since there are many readers who only check for new stories in their preferred category, one of the potential target groups is likely to be missing out.

 

[Bramblethorn]

As to your first point, other than the no-longer-in-existence monthly contests, how are GM authors on any unequal footing otherwise? We most certainly can enter the seasonal contests and aren't restricted from entering the contests multiple times and in any category we choose...so long as what we write fits in that category.

If a story's about a cis man and a cis woman falling in love, it's almost certainly going to be in the Romance category (unless it has some additional theme that overrides that). Readers who want cis het romance can go there and find exactly what they're after. Authors can post there and know they'll get the right kind of readers.

If I write a story about two cis women falling in love, it will almost certainly end up in Lesbian alongside a whole lot of other things: girl-on-girl stroke stories, lesbian age-gap stories, lesbian group sex, and all the rest of it. Readers who do want a lesbian romance story will have a much harder time finding it. Readers who want lesbian stroke but hate romance will stumble across it, downvote, and whine in the comments because there's too much talky-feely stuff and not enough strapons. Meanwhile, readers who might appreciate the romance aspect are over in the Romance category and unlikely ever to notice this one.

Similarly, if you have a trans character, you have to decide whether that aspect of the story ought to trump everything else. And if you have a bi character and want to write specifically about their bi-ness (something that would be a major turn-off to many lesbian readers) there's really NO good category for it.

I don't think this is a deliberate conspiracy to oppress writers of queer stories; just an unfortunate consequence of hetero- and cis-normativity.

 

[sr71plt]

I don't think it's a conspiracy either. (For instance, as I well know, Laurel doesn't stint on giving Green Es to GM stories, so they aren't being made unwelcome.) It's more just ignoring author/reader requests for additional categories both in the story file and the forum. But nearly all author/reader requests are ignored here, so I don't think these have been picked out to pick on. They just weren't accommodated from the beginning and the Web site isn't particularly responsive to requests that they be added for more parity--and to, probably, attract more readers in these categories, especially bisexual. Those stories are almost impossible to find here.

This whole issue, though, is tertiary to the points I was trying to make on the topic that was running on the thread at the time.

 

[Dream_Operator]

There you go.

Being another person who isn't afraid to speak their mind, I'm sure you've suffered the slings and arrows to a far greater extent than I have -- especially posting primarily in the GM category.

The anonymity of the internet emboldens Cowards to be Heroes in their own little minds.

 

[Dream_Operator]

Just to prove my point, before I posted in this thread, I had three "H" stories.

Now, I have only one, teetering on the edge.

I say bring it, Troll Bitches.

 

[sr71plt]

If a story's about a cis man and a cis woman falling in love, it's almost certainly going to be in the Romance category (unless it has some additional theme that overrides that). Readers who want cis het romance can go there and find exactly what they're after. Authors can post there and know they'll get the right kind of readers.

If I write a story about two cis women falling in love, it will almost certainly end up in Lesbian alongside a whole lot of other things: girl-on-girl stroke stories, lesbian age-gap stories, lesbian group sex, and all the rest of it. Readers who do want a lesbian romance story will have a much harder time finding it. Readers who want lesbian stroke but hate romance will stumble across it, downvote, and whine in the comments because there's too much talky-feely stuff and not enough strapons. Meanwhile, readers who might appreciate the romance aspect are over in the Romance category and unlikely ever to notice this one.

Similarly, if you have a trans character, you have to decide whether that aspect of the story ought to trump everything else. And if you have a bi character and want to write specifically about their bi-ness (something that would be a major turn-off to many lesbian readers) there's really NO good category for it.

I don't think this is a deliberate conspiracy to oppress writers of queer stories; just an unfortunate consequence of hetero- and cis-normativity.

Thanks, Bramble. That's it. I just have to be flabbergasted that someone whose stories are entirely in the GM category here can't see the effect of all of his gay male stories, whether they are romance, or BDSM, or fetish, or incest, or horror, having to go into a single category and take the risks of reader response to multiple issues when hetero stories can enjoy their separate categories for these topics (and more)--and all the special listings that the individual category pages provide.

Maybe, though, it's precisely because all of his stories are in that one category and he can't see what I can see since I also post hetero stories to nearly all of the rest of the categories.

 

[Hypoxia]

I am a fairly competitive person. I often like brownie-points. Yeah, they're an ego boost. But the voting system here is less than fully functional. My first 26 submissions did pretty good here, with a half-dozen H's and only two scoring less than 4.0. Then, an LW story pissed-off the shitheads, and my submissions were one-bombed into oblivion.

What to do? I reconsidered my motivations. Do I REALLY need the brownie points? Or can I be happy otherwise? I decided just to stop playing the vote-grabbing game. I have switched off voting for my submissions. Fuck the trolls. I don't mind most inane frothing comments. I'll even wear them as a badge of honor. But I'll not concern myself with votes again.

 

[TimothyM]

My first 26 submissions did pretty good here, with a half-dozen H's and only two scoring less than 4.0. Then, an LW story pissed-off the shitheads, and my submissions were one-bombed into oblivion.

You've just convinced me all over again NEVER to submit anything in the LW category.

But I think it's a shame you switched off the voting, because I'm sure that after a while the trolls will get tired of bombing you and go for someone else. Why don't you switch it back on at some point ?

 

[patientlee]

What I have found to be better metrics are:

- Post a new story and see if the views of your other, older stories go up. If they do, it means readers like the current story and want to check out your other stuff.

- For series stories: how much does the readership drop off on subsequent chapters. For my (two) series stories: 72% of the readers of the first chapter read the second, and of those 80% read the third.

Neither of the above can be manipulated (one way or another), and are truer indications that people are connecting with your writing.

Excellent point.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Mmm...just received an email feedback from a reader on a story that is 3 days older than dirt. He didn't say, but he must have stumbled upon it via my newly posted story.

 

[StrangeLife]

You've just convinced me all over again NEVER to submit anything in the LW category.

Pussy.

 

[littlecordelera]

You've just convinced me all over again NEVER to submit anything in the LW category.

The LW category is not a Loving Wives category anymore. It's now the "Jilted Male Cry Baby Club," and it is saturated with stories that are exactly opposite of "Married extra-marital fun: swinging, sharing & more."

Nevertheless, I like the idea someone said of getting rid of categories and letting keywords be used for finding stories. I also think much of the voting/comment abuse could be greatly reduced if all forms of anon feedback were eliminated. In my opinion, voting, leaving comments, giving reader feedback should all require a user account and every instance should be publicly displayed at the end of each story.

 

[patientlee]

You've just convinced me all over again NEVER to submit anything in the LW category.

Pussy.

Here's why I won't be posting in LW again. I don't like LW stories. I only posted the one because I had this purple glitter in my head that needed to be shaken out. It was fun to write and fun to read the comments.

The problem is that when an author leaves me a comment, I reciprocate. Posting in LW brought comments from LW authors, which stacked my reading list with stories in a category I don't like. it was a side effect that I didn't expect.

(BTW, if I owe anyone a comment, drop me a line. I think I'm caught up.)

 

[StrangeLife]

Here's why I won't be posting in LW again. I don't like LW stories. I only posted the one because I had this purple glitter in my head that needed to be shaken out. It was fun to write and fun to read the comments.

Too bad. Your forage into the genre resulted in an excellent story, narrated from an unusual perspective.

Maybe you'll get into a masochistic mood again sometime in the future...

 

[TimothyM]

The LW category is not a Loving Wives category anymore. It's ... saturated with stories that are exactly opposite of "Married extra-marital fun: swinging, sharing & more."

Which brings me to the question: why did the site call it Loving Wives with THAT description attached ? I'm probably dense, but where is the Loving Husbands equivalent ? But I guess this is because it's OK for married men to have affairs, but not for married women. So a story with a man having extra-marital fun would go to EC or one of the other normal categories. (or GM as the case may be

In any case, most of the happy 'swinging, sharing & more' stories probably end up in Group Sex. I know mine did (even though I was worried that the MMF bisex would upset readers in spite of a very clear warning at the top).

It's not going to happen (and would probably also be too difficult technically), but it would be neat if the site divided LW into an Infidelity Revenge category and a Extra-marital Fun category. Though that's assuming there are any of the latter kind in there. If not they could just change the description to fit the content. Much easier too

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Stories should do a couple of things here at LIT: Find your audience, and let you know what works and doesn't work.

The voting is a cluster-fuck. If you posted WAR & PEACE it wouldn't impress any readers, cuz they naturally aren't interested in industrial strength philosophical issues such as Tolstoy tackled. Ditto Hemingway ditto any writer with a Pulitzer Prize. LIT readers aren't here to think. They want a brat and a beer and a good seat around the 50 yard line and a partner with plenty of meat in the right places.

 

[lovecraft68]

Votes aren't that important, but...

This thread is approaching 100 posts.

I guess it is.

 

[littlecordelera]

Stories should do a couple of things here at LIT: Find your audience, and let you know what works and doesn't work.

The voting is a cluster-fuck. If you posted WAR & PEACE it wouldn't impress any readers, cuz they naturally aren't interested in industrial strength philosophical issues such as Tolstoy tackled. Ditto Hemingway ditto any writer with a Pulitzer Prize. LIT readers aren't here to think. They want a brat and a beer and a good seat around the 50 yard line and a partner with plenty of meat in the right places.

Fuck! Why didn't you post this about six months ago - BEFORE I decided to submit?

 

[littlecordelera]

Votes aren't that important, but...

This thread is approaching 100 posts.

I guess it is.

I think everyone just wants to be treated fairly.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Fuck! Why didn't you post this about six months ago - BEFORE I decided to submit?

hahahahaha For most writers LIT is like being 10 feet tall in a land of midget readers.

Keep in mind that the audience you want are the folks who prospect for talent NOT the creeps who wanna better wank, and diss anyone who fails to deliver the high.