Votes aren't that important. BUT...

[patientlee]

If I don't like a story, I just leave. I don't give it a 1, and especially not if the average is above 4.3. Because that means that plenty of other people liked it, and it's probably me who has the problem.

And if it's in GM and the story is inoffensive and rather mainstream (maybe even slightly boring), the only reasons to hate it enough to give a 1 would either be because you don't like gay sex (and what are you doing reading in GM, then) or if you are a troll wanting to be nasty. I really don't think GM readers give 1 scores just because they are bored with a story.

But I'd accept a score of 1, if the voter left a comment or sent feedback to explain why. Even just a simple Anon 'I really disliked this story' would suffice. But I guess that would be too hard to express for a troll ;-)

And the site may not be GM friendly (I have no idea if you are right about that, pilot) but the readers in that category are ususally very kind, both with votes and comments. I think someone in AH said that the only category who has nicer readers is NH.

I have no expectations about having those specific 1 votes deleted, but I have seen it happen on my stories, both in the monthly sweeps and during contest sweeps (and that was without reporting the suspicious votes). So some 1 star votes are clearly considered fradulent (the term Laurel used in the automatic PM response to my message). I'll keep you posted if they disappear.

I don't think I've ever given a 1 on purpose, but I have hit the 1 by mistake before.

I think some people enjoy the power of affecting scores so significantly. Think of reality competition shows. I imagine that many a 1 bomber is emulating Simon Cowell or the guy from Hell's Kitchen when voting.

I've seen posts from some authors who assume that every 1 is awarded maliciously by a voter that may not have read the story.

Even if a voter doesn't like a story and chooses to vote 1, s/he is not obligated to explain why. The readers don't owe us anything.

 

[sr71plt]

I don't really think that's fair to either the Simon Crowell or Hell's Kitchen type of slam voting. First, those are competition situations, meant to pick out winners over not winners; there needs to be differentiation (and without the original Simon Crowell approach, they aren't that much anymore). There's no reason to consider any story here in terms of competition other than those entered in contests.

Second, Simon Crowell was rarely wrong in the early years (he's pabulum and all about gamesmanship that has little to do with isolating on the overall best in his show now)--nor was whatshisname on Hell's kitchen. Gordon Ramsey?; he just didn't frame his slamming very constructively (although some he hounded off the stage richly deserved being embarrassed and hounded off the stage). It wasn't the 1 vote, it was the commentary. (I'm happy to see that Harry Connick Junior is pointing to much of the "not a chance" in the new American Idol series--not enough but much more constructively than Simon Crowell did. For one, he's got the demonstrated chops for it; Simon's talents didn't/don't run to performance talent or knowing first hand what performers go through.)

It isn't that the 1 vote here isn't a fair assessment all the time, either--although, in context with other responses, you can usually pick out which ones are 1 bombs not associated really with the story itself--I can identify the periods in which that's happening to my stories (my late morning/early, when the story posted early in the morning has had the nerve of going hot)--and even relate them to who is logged in during that period.

 

[JKendallDane]

But cousins aren't really incest. Not legally anyway. So forget the silly complaint and any 1 bombs you get are totally unfair. The story was great, both well written and hot. Even if you did mix up their names a couple of times.

Thanks for kudos Timothy. I pretty much wrote off the one whiner, especially after other readers came to the rescue with comments similar to yours.

And yeah...I do need to do an "opps!" mea culpa for the stupid name mix up on whom was tossing whom's salad. Two full self edits and a final one before I hit the 'submit' button, and I didn't catch that fuck up. On the positive side though, I will now be just paranoid enough to make sure it never happens again.

 

[patientlee]

I'm not saying it's what should happen. I think people like the power of rating a creative product and not everyone is nice or fair.

Let's not turn this into an argument please.

 

[JKendallDane]

This isn't a GM-friendly site, but only mildly not so.

Even with the "but only mildly not so" tacked on, I have to totally disagree with that sentiment.

Granted, wandering over to the GB and being openly gay (or leaving links to your stories in the sig line) if and when you post, will most likely get you a whole flock of "fans" you don't want from what I have seen there.

But from what I have seen everywhere else in the almost 8 years I have been here, the site is QUITE gay male friendly...both in reader reception and professional courtesy in this forum in particular.

 

[TimothyM]

Thanks for kudos Timothy. I pretty much wrote off the one whiner, especially after other readers came to the rescue with comments similar to yours.

And yeah...I do need to do an "opps!" mea culpa for the stupid name mix up on whom was tossing whom's salad. Two full self edits and a final one before I hit the 'submit' button, and I didn't catch that fuck up. On the positive side though, I will now be just paranoid enough to make sure it never happens again.

You're welcome, and I'm glad you enjoyed my story too. Hope you get to visit Copenhagen soon, but don't come over right now; it's cold and dark and we have snow/slush.

You can always revise the story to fix the mistakes - if you dare. I had to do it on one of my stories, and I worried that it would go wrong. But it actually worked. The FAQ tells you how:

Simply submit the new version as you submitted the old one, only adding the word "EDITED" to the title (ex. "My Sexy Firefighter Ch. 03 - EDITED") so that we know to replace the old text with the new text. We will then replace the original text with the new text. Your story will retain its previous voting score and views.

The only annoying thing is that you have to do all the tags again. And it takes about 6-10 days for it to happen.

I can identify the periods in which that's happening to my stories (my late morning/early, when the story posted early in the morning has had the nerve of going hot).

I can relate to that, happened to me a couple of times too. That's when you get suspicious, when that one vote of 1 point just pushes your average score below 4.5 - on the other hand, I'm silly to complain if at the end of the day (or rather at the end of the main voting period) my story ends up with a score above 4. Because that average means that ultimately a lot more people liked a story than not.

And hey, even getting 1 bombs is a kind of compliment, as someone pointed out once. Means that your story was successful enough for trolls to get pissed.

 

[sr71plt]

Even with the "but only mildly not so" tacked on, I have to totally disagree with that sentiment.

Granted, wandering over to the GB and being openly gay (or leaving links to your stories in the sig line) if and when you post, will most likely get you a whole flock of "fans" you don't want from what I have seen there.

But from what I have seen everywhere else in the almost 8 years I have been here, the site is QUITE gay male friendly...both in reader reception and professional courtesy in this forum in particular.

Apples and Oranges. I'm talking about how the Web site is set up and you're talking about who is using it. It's not set up with GM (or bi or lesbian) on equal footing. Even in contest recognition and money. The monthly contests seem to have bitten the dust now, but when they were in operation you had 20 opportunities to score monthly in the hetero categories, only 1 (or one and a half) with GM stories, only 1 with lesbian stories, and none with bi stories. That's a disparity in the construction and operation of the Web site.

But that's all irrelevant to the point of this area of the thread discussion. My point is that you can remain comfortable within the GM subset of the Web site if you don't expect it to get the same results as a good many of the hetero categories.

 

[sr71plt]

I can relate to that, happened to me a couple of times too. That's when you get suspicious, when that one vote of 1 points just pushes your average score below 4.5 - on the other hand, I'm silly to complain if at the end of the day (or rather at the end of the main voting period) my story ends up with a score above 4. Because that average means that ultimately a lot more people liked a story than not.

And hey, even getting 1 bombs is a kind of compliment, as someone pointed out once. Means that your story was successful enough for trolls to get pissed.

I'm not that suspicious about the single 1 votes--it's the concerted effort at 1s and 2s, wham one after the other, when the initial run of twenty or so were 4s and 5s, and the 1s and 2s keep coming until the story is pushed under 4.5 and there's a pattern of who has just come onto the Web site before the 1s and 2s started coming and then some of the stuff they say in the forum. That's pretty much beyond suspicious. Once you know what's going on, though, you can lower your expectations on ratings--and leave it to the adventurous readers to realize that there's a campaign going on with your ratings and to find your stories. The size of the GM readership on this Web site, even if it's much smaller than that for many of the other categories, is well worth the posting here. The views then--and the comments and e-mails--give you a more comforting idea that your story was worth posting.

 

[TimothyM]

I don't think I've ever given a 1 on purpose, but I have hit the 1 by mistake before.

I wonder if you do that, whether you can correct this by logging out (or on) and then quickly vote on the same story again with the correct score you want to give. The system would then recognize two votes from the same IP and hopefully delete the lower score.

Anyway if I hit 1 by mistake (and realized it), I think I'd leave a comment or send a message to the author. Just because I know how much I hate getting 1s myself. But that may be a bit over the top. I'll keep your suggestion in mind next time and tell myself it was probably a mistake

 

[sr71plt]

I doubt it. I think once the yellow-colored stars light up, you've voted.

 

[TimothyM]

I'm not that suspicious about the single 1 votes--it's the concerted effort at 1s and 2s, wham one after the other, when the initial run of twenty or so were 4s and 5s, and the 1s and 2s keep coming until the story is pushed under 4.5

Yes but then you have a lot more readers and voters than I do, so it takes more low votes to push your average story scores below 4.5.

The size of the GM readership on this Web site, even if it's much smaller than that for many of the other categories, is well worth the posting here. The views then--and the comments and e-mails--give you a more comforting idea that your story was worth posting.

I totally agree - and I don't mind that we are a small almost selfcontained community within Lit. And sometimes a GM story does well in contests (ends up in top 10).

 

[lovecraft68]

I don't see how you could "un-vote"

The only thing you might be able to do is PM laurel and maybe ask her to remove the vote, but I doubt she would pay that any heed. That is also assuming the reader knows of or visits the boards.

The "contact us" feature to me is the biggest broken feature that pisses me off. I wonder how many potential authors walked away because they had questions and tried that.

As for the accidental one bomb. I did it once. The way I tried to make up for it was to log out and give it a 5 as anonymous then vote on it from work the next day(different IP so I am sure it took) I also had my wife vote it from her office so I figure I kind of made up for it somewhat.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I wonder if you do that, whether you can correct this by logging out (or on) and then quickly vote on the same story again with the correct score you want to give. The system would then recognize two votes from the same IP and hopefully delete the lower score.

Anyway if I hit 1 by mistake (and realized it), I think I'd leave a comment or send a message to the author. Just because I know how much I hate getting 1s myself. But that may be a bit over the top. I'll keep your suggestion in mind next time and tell myself it was probably a mistake

I doubt it. I think once the yellow-colored stars light up, you've voted.

I think Timothy's right on this one. As far as I can tell from the way the site behaves: when you vote, that info is recorded in two places. Literotica stores a record of the vote along with IP and maybe other data useful to spot repeat voters, and your own computer stores a record via cookies.

When you load a story, it checks the cookies stored at your end; if it looks like you've already voted it disables voting again and shows stars indicating how you already voted. (I suspect this is simpler and faster than querying a database of votes and trying to match to your IP on the fly.)

Since that info is stored on your own computer, it's easy enough to delete it or otherwise bypass it, even unintentionally, which makes it possible to vote again. But Lit would still have IPs recorded for both votes, so it should get picked up in the sweeps.

 

[TimothyM]

As far as I can tell from the way the site behaves: when you vote, that info is recorded in two places. Literotica stores a record of the vote along with IP and maybe other data useful to spot repeat voters, and your own computer stores a record via cookies.

When you load a story, it checks the cookies stored at your end; if it looks like you've already voted it disables voting again and shows stars indicating how you already voted.

Except I always use the InPrivate browser mode and that should prevent cookies and other info from being stored on my computer, shouldn't it ? But when I'm logged in, I can still see what I've voted on stories. I haven't checked what it looks like, if I'm not logged in.

 

[lovecraft68]

I've said many times that although I know there are a lot of trolls and motivations for said trolls that are responsible for one bombs, it gets on my nerves when some people cannot get their head around the fact there can be legit low scores on our stories.

The site has compounded that by erasing a lot of one bombs. I am sure that some of what they sweep were people who just did not like the story.

I think the average story across the board is probably rated in the low 4's which is a good rating, but people here have gotten to the the point of thinking "Oh, its only a 4.21)

Above Pilot remarks on the "lunch time" trolls. Noon or thereabouts the scores start dropping. He made the point the story had the nerve to hit an H.

I don't think it has anything to do with the current score, but all about the time.

My stories follow this pattern

Early in the morning a very high score. Comes down a little, but nothing excessive, during the later morning. Early afternoon is when it starts taking a beating. Some bombs some crappy remarks.

Then later afternoon a rise and after the night and first day it goes up and levels off.

My theory is the category trolls. the haters of incest, lw GM or whatever wait until all the stories are released so around lunch time and start their games.

I think personal trolls catch you around then as well. After the first day its pretty much your "regulars" that see you have something new and vote favorably.

Today I got the shaft of my story not being released until after 12 est. Maybe I missed the lunch time trolls.

 

[sr71plt]

Yes but then you have a lot more readers and voters than I do, so it takes more low votes to push your average story scores below 4.5.

I doubt that's true on a per-story basis. There are GM writers (a lot of them female) who are getting far more-per story views than I am. I have a niche audience (and it's fine with me if other GM readers are getting more attention).

 

[JKendallDane]

Apples and Oranges. I'm talking about how the Web site is set up and you're talking about who is using it. It's not set up with GM (or bi or lesbian) on equal footing. Even in contest recognition and money. The monthly contests seem to have bitten the dust now, but when they were in operation you had 20 opportunities to score monthly in the hetero categories, only 1 (or one and a half) with GM stories, only 1 with lesbian stories, and none with bi stories. That's a disparity in the construction and operation of the Web site.

But that's all irrelevant to the point of this area of the thread discussion. My point is that you can remain comfortable within the GM subset of the Web site if you don't expect it to get the same results as a good many of the hetero categories.

As to your first point, other than the no-longer-in-existence monthly contests, how are GM authors on any unequal footing otherwise? We most certainly can enter the seasonal contests and aren't restricted from entering the contests multiple times and in any category we choose...so long as what we write fits in that category.

Next: "Disparity in the construction and operation of the web site" might be a valid point *IF* we were relegated to the bottom of the category listings, or if Laurel was intentionally bypassing new GM submissions in the queue when she is snowed under...but we both know neither of those scenarios exist, so please clarify your comment.

I'm also lost as to what point you are trying to make as to the "don't expect to get the same results" comment? I've been very pleased with my results, whether I compare them to just other GM submissions, or with the results in other categories. Are you talking about views, votes, scores, reader comments, or what?

 

[TimothyM]

My stories follow this pattern

Early in the morning a very high score. Comes down a little, but nothing excessive, during the later morning. Early afternoon is when it starts taking a beating. Some bombs some crappy remarks.

Then later afternoon a rise and after the night and first day it goes up and levels off.

My theory is the category trolls. the haters of incest, lw GM or whatever wait until all the stories are released so around lunch time and start their games.

I think personal trolls catch you around then as well. After the first day its pretty much your "regulars" that see you have something new and vote favorably.

Hmm now I just have to work out how that fits with GMT-1 time zone, to test if the pattern works for me too. But it does seem as if the early high scores are followed by a spate of lower votes and then it goes up a bit and gets level on the more or less permanent score.

But I wonder if the pattern may be because the readers who visit the story when the average score is high after the first batch of votes, have high expectations and thus are more likely to be disappointed. Whereas those who come even later and see an average of 4-4.2, think 'Oh the story is better than that, I'll give a 5'.

 

[lovecraft68]

It is not 20+ whatever hetero categories vs poor little GM and Lesbian.

Each category has its own fetish.

There is one incest category

One group category

Etc...

So its not this dramatic "homosexuals vs the hetero world" game going on here. Each category has its following and they are not united against any other category they just favor their own.

There was a stretch where GM placed in several consecutive themed contests. That then seemed to drift off and favor romance for awhile.

Why that is, who knows, but it was not about people going specifically against any category.

 

[sr71plt]

As to your first point, other than the no-longer-in-existence monthly contests, how are GM authors on any unequal footing otherwise? We most certainly can enter the seasonal contests and aren't restricted from entering the contests multiple times and in any category we choose...so long as what we write fits in that category.

Next: "Disparity in the construction and operation of the web site" might be a valid point *IF* we were relegated to the bottom of the category listings, or if Laurel was intentionally bypassing new GM submissions in the queue when she is snowed under...but we both know neither of those scenarios exist, so please clarify your comment.

I'm also lost as to what point you are trying to make as to the "don't expect to get the same results" comment? I've been very pleased with my results, whether I compare them to just other GM submissions, or with the results in other categories. Are you talking about views, votes, scores, reader comments, or what?

I guess you didn't catch on to the "over twenty categories" to choose from for hetero stories and essentially one, no matter what the topic of the story, for GM. It's sort of weird that you haven't noticed that.

Beyond that, you're free to get the impressions you wish to take from the activity of the Web site. I think you've just ignored the thrust of what I was trying to post to this part of the discussion--which essentially was a "don't sweat it and enjoy what you've got" message and I'd rather be writing the stories then debating the minutia--especially if I have to work up from convincing you that "over twenty" opportunities is more advantageous than "just one"--or, in the case of bi, none.

 

[PennLady]

It is not 20+ whatever hetero categories vs poor little GM and Lesbian.

Each category has its own fetish.

There is one incest category

One group category

Etc...

I think the point is that if you are going to have gay male sex, it almost, no matter what, has to be in the gay male category. In incest, BDSM, Group Sex, Interracial, Fetish, etc. most if not all of the pairings or partnerings are, or seem to be, male/female. Once you have two men involved, it almost immediately gets moved to Gay Male. This has been noted by posters such as yourself, Darkniciad and others.

The only exceptions I can think of to that are SciFi and NonHuman; I've seen GM and Lesbian sex in those, and the readership doesn't seem to care. But many people have said if you put GM sex in another category, even Group, many readers get highly offended.

So yes, in a way, the categories are far more hetero-friendly -- whether that's intentional or not -- than they are gay-male-friendly.

 

[lovecraft68]

I think the point is that if you are going to have gay male sex, it almost, no matter what, has to be in the gay male category. In incest, BDSM, Group Sex, Interracial, Fetish, etc. most if not all of the pairings or partnerings are, or seem to be, male/female. Once you have two men involved, it almost immediately gets moved to Gay Male. This has been noted by posters such as yourself, Darkniciad and others.

The only exceptions I can think of to that are SciFi and NonHuman; I've seen GM and Lesbian sex in those, and the readership doesn't seem to care. But many people have said if you put GM sex in another category, even Group, many readers get highly offended.

So yes, in a way, the categories are far more hetero-friendly -- whether that's intentional or not -- than they are gay-male-friendly.

Same can be said for incest which is the other "trump" category that along with GM everyone is told has to stay in its own category.

But in a way that is an advantage because you can find some good variety in those categories because people have story lines that involve other subjects, but had to put it in one of those.

I don't write in GM, but do write incest where we have to "keep it in the family" and caught hell because SWB had heavy BDSM sex, but I would not have put it there(I am sure the site would not have let me if I tried)

But I don't feel the site is unfriendly towards incest or any other category.

I have also only seen one person routinely complain about it and the GM readership in general(not counting the demand by many for bi-sexual category) so perhaps that person just has a persecution complex.

ETA that it dawned on me that many are squickish about bdsm and non consent for many is a love it or leave it.

That is why there are categories in the first place. Not only for people to read what they want, but to avoid what they don't like.

Its only personal for those looking to be treated like Martyrs.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Except I always use the InPrivate browser mode and that should prevent cookies and other info from being stored on my computer, shouldn't it ? But when I'm logged in, I can still see what I've voted on stories. I haven't checked what it looks like, if I'm not logged in.

Hm, not sure there. Does InPrivate block cookies altogether, or just delete them at the end of a session? If it's still showing your vote after restarting a session, maybe it is also attaching vote info to your login.

 

[PennLady]

Same can be said for incest which is the other "trump" category that along with GM everyone is told has to stay in its own category.

But incest is a kink, not a matter of orientation. If I don't like incest, I have plenty of other options for hetero sex, other kinks. But it seems that all the Gay Male sex has to go into the GM category, no matter the kink or focus. All the hetero sex does not.

I have also only seen one person routinely complain about it and the GM readership in general(not counting the demand by many for bi-sexual category) so perhaps that person just has a persecution complex.

Just because you notice a disparity doesn't mean you have a persecution complex.

 

[TxRad]

Same can be said for incest which is the other "trump" category that along with GM everyone is told has to stay in its own category.

But in a way that is an advantage because you can find some good variety in those categories because people have story lines that involve other subjects, but had to put it in one of those.

I don't write in GM, but do write incest where we have to "keep it in the family" and caught hell because SWB had heavy BDSM sex, but I would not have put it there(I am sure the site would not have let me if I tried)

But I don't feel the site is unfriendly towards incest or any other category.

I have also only seen one person routinely complain about it and the GM readership in general(not counting the demand by many for bi-sexual category) so perhaps that person just has a persecution complex.

And you're using your bullshit campaign to muddy the waters on the problems with the GM category.

Yes, GM and Incest are trump categories but and it is a big but, If there is a GM story with Incest, it gets dumped in one big catchall category. If it is a GM story about an older man and a younger man, it is dumped in the same category instead of in a Mature category.

That is discrimination and has nothing to do with persecution. That is your bullshit showing through.