Crappy Dom = crappy sub?

[blulilacgrl]

Okay this is not to debate the merits of what makes a ‘good’ Dom or sub. But to ask, is it possible to be an 'awesome' Dom and yet still have things go to shit because of a crappy sub? Or vice versa?

In talking with some people I keep hearing this refrain ‘Oh the reason it didn’t work out is because you had a bad Dom’. No offense, but I feel like that is blowing smoke up someone’s ass. It’s like the standard reply most men have when a woman says she is fat. There seems to be this automatic negating of a truth. And yet there are some objective standards to determine whether someone is fat or not. There are BMI numbers and scale numbers. So yeah, sometimes when a person says they are fat, it’s because they are indeed fat. They are trying to be truthful not fishing for compliments.

The fact is I am a shitty sub. While there is a part of me that longs for the peace that comes with ownership, there is this greater part that will fight it. I will be irreverent and combative. I will purposely push and push until someone gets frustrated and gives up. It is the whole ‘what you fear, you create’ kind of thing. I am trying to figure why I do it and that is a difficult introspection to do. Even harder to do when the answer I receive while discussing it with people is that it is not my fault but his.

And yet, what if it is my fault? What if it doesn’t matter who I am with (good or bad), I am going to fuck it up because it is in my nature to do so? He could hold the title of World’s Greatest Dom and yet I am still going to resist and push and sabotage it.

I am not talking about mismatched needs or wants, or even conflicting personalities. I am thinking more along the lines of one person being unable to actually do what they say they want and this inability leading to the downfall of a relationship regardless of the suitability of the other person. And yes I can see how this would be a universal issue in any relationship. I am, however, thinking of it within the context of a D/s or M/s dynamic.

*NOTE~ I am not looking for a relationship. I have realized that right now I am not in any position to look for such a thing. This is merely a part of looking inside myself to try to understand why I do what I do and wondering if anyone else does it as well.

 

[Primalex]

Okay this is not to debate the merits of what makes a ‘good’ Dom or sub. But to ask, is it possible to be an 'awesome' Dom and yet still have things go to shit because of a crappy sub? Or vice versa?

Even if you combine an awesome Dom and an awesome sub, things can go to shit.

The fact is I am a shitty sub. While there is a part of me that longs for the peace that comes with ownership, there is this greater part that will fight it. I will be irreverent and combative. I will purposely push and push until someone gets frustrated and gives up. It is the whole ‘what you fear, you create’ kind of thing. I am trying to figure why I do it and that is a difficult introspection to do.

No comment for now.

And yet, what if it is my fault? What if it doesn’t matter who I am with (good or bad), I am going to fuck it up because it is in my nature to do so?

I don't believe in the concept of fault. Even if you would figure out whose fault it is that a gay person is gay, it wouldn't change anything.

I am not talking about mismatched needs or wants, or even conflicting personalities. I am thinking more along the lines of one person being unable to actually do what they say they want and this inability leading to the downfall of a relationship regardless of the suitability of the other person. And yes I can see how this would be a universal issue in any relationship. I am, however, thinking of it within the context of a D/s or M/s dynamic.

*NOTE~ I am not looking for a relationship. I have realized that right now I am not in any position to look for such a thing. This is merely a part of looking inside myself to try to understand why I do what I do and wondering if anyone else does it as well.

I nevertheless believe that it's more along the line of "the wrong partner" than "unable to have a partner". I'm with my wife now 10 years and there have been quite some moments in our relationship where the relationship would have ended if I would have said what I wanted to say during a fight. I was soooo tempted to do it and call it quits - and in 99 of 100 cases (or 99 of 100 alternate universes) it would have ended. But I didn't say it, although it is completely against my nature to shut the fuck up myself; as everyone here can confirm.

So, while I think the problem is the wrong partner, it does not mean that you need a partner who endures the destructive part of yourself, but you need a partner for whom you will change yourself.

 

[LallyH]

Have you ever considered that you may be 'difficult' (sorry, I'm sure there's a better description) because you are 'testing'? Pushing back to see whether they are strong enough and interested enough to stay and insist on your obedience, or whether they just walk instead?

 

[blulilacgrl]

I nevertheless believe that it's more along the line of "the wrong partner" than "unable to have a partner". I'm with my wife now 10 years and there have been quite some moments in our relationship where the relationship would have ended if I would have said what I wanted to say during a fight. I was soooo tempted to do it and call it quits - and in 99 of 100 cases (or 99 of 100 alternate universes) it would have ended. But I didn't say it, although it is completely against my nature to shut the fuck up myself; as everyone here can confirm.

So, while I think the problem is the wrong partner, it does not mean that you need a partner who endures the destructive part of yourself, but you need a partner for whom you will change yourself.

I can certainly relate. I have been married for a very long time and while I love my husband... I love my life. There are times that I get very tired of pulling my punches. Am I the only one that feels that way? Over the years he and I have gotten really good at not fighting and instead finding constructive ways to deal with issues that come up. But damn sometimes I really crave a chance to unleash. To let every bit of it out until I literally can't stand. I don't want to be reasonable and responsible. I want to stomp my feet and demand things go all my way! And yet, I don't.

I think I might be the opposite of you. [laughs] I tend to bite my tongue a lot. I try to be understanding and accepting. And after a while that gets to be a very difficult role to play. Perhaps I am looking for that release? And yet logically that seems very stupid to me.

I get tired of being responsible to so many people. Tired of being someone's wife, mom, sister, daughter and even friend. And yet I crave being someone's sub. But that is just one more responsibility that after a while feels very constricting. Like I have just added one more person to my list of people I must answer to.

Have you ever considered that you may be 'difficult' (sorry, I'm sure there's a better description) because you are 'testing'? Pushing back to see whether they are strong enough and interested enough to stay and insist on your obedience, or whether they just walk instead?

Oh no, I think 'difficult' is a very good descriptor for me. [laughs]

You know, my instinctive response was 'no' because there really would be no basis for me to feel like someone would walk out on me. My entire life I have had people stand beside me. But the more I think about it.... I think maybe a part of me feels like they stand beside me, stick with me, because I am 'good'. I am responsible and loyal and strong. So what happens if I am not those things? What happens if I am petulant and snarky and combative? If I am not 'good', will anyone stick around?

 

[Netzach]

I think if you keep returning to the idea that you're a "crappy" sub, you may not be one at all, or you may be something more specific. Not that I'm trying to talk you into anything, but I had this moment of realization after many an experience that didn't satisfy any submissive drives I might have. I realized that those drives are more me sending a message to myself rather than anything anyone else could really do FOR me. It's a slightly disappointing memo, but it's also liberating and has opened my vistas a lot.

Making people do things is a sublime escape from having to do every fucking thing. It's highly overlooked because there's only ONE script for "a good dominant" and its template is "Daddy" and for some reason we as a community have made every single person who wants to do things to other people adhere to this script, when it doesn't even make sense half the time.

Fuck the "protect and defend" demands of the SM mainstream, the "responsibility" should be limited to "I won't break your face and I won't spring shit on you I know is bad." Not "And now I shall fix/parent/mold/wipe-your-ass" you. People believe Domination to be incredibly demanding because we've made it pointlessly demanding, by infantilizing the passive partner.

Wouldn't it be nice to have a grape peeled for you and NOWHERE TO GO? Yeah, fuck yeah! I said.

 

[Stella_Omega]

My first foray into the leather scene, a woman basically cast in the role as her Dom. And she was a crappy sub, most of the time. I wasn't really amenable to being tested ALLLL the freaking time. I just... looked tough. She was a fantastic playmate, and gorgeous. So I wanted that part. And I kept trying to be the Daddy.

Funny thing, someone said to me; "Let's do a one card reading for you." She had the Rider-Waite deck, and I drew "Strength." The image is of a woman with her hand on a lion's chest, stopping it and gentling it. But what I saw-- I saw the woman with her hand down the lion's throat. I realised that to get what I wanted from that girl, I would have to drag it out by force-- and I was totally over her, in that one instant, and what a relief!

She never tried to be submissive ever again either... We were all figuring out how leather worked for women.

EDIT: YES to every single sentence in Netz's post above me.

 

[IrisAlthea]

Even if you combine an awesome Dom and an awesome sub, things can go to shit.

I don't believe in the concept of fault.

This.

While there is a part of me that longs for the peace that comes with ownership, there is this greater part that will fight it.
...
I am not talking about mismatched needs or wants, or even conflicting personalities. I am thinking more along the lines of one person being unable to actually do what they say they want and this inability leading to the downfall of a relationship regardless of the suitability of the other person.

I can relate a lot to this.
It would be so much easier if we wanted just one thing at the time, wouldn't it.

I get tired of being responsible to so many people. Tired of being someone's wife, mom, sister, daughter and even friend. And yet I crave being someone's sub.

Again, I can relate.
It's very easy to long for someone to carry the load, make the unpopular decisions etc, when you're really tired of too much responsibility.
Then on the other hand I realized that I don't want to give up all of it all of the time.
For me, the D/s thing didn't turn out to be quite right. Thinking it was, did help me let go of the idea of a relationship where power is equal at all times.
For us, it shifts a lot and that's ok with us. Most of the time, the rest of the time we bite our tongues. =)

I'm not saying this will be the same for you. Perhaps it can be useful anyway.

My entire life I have had people stand beside me. But the more I think about it.... I think maybe a part of me feels like they stand beside me, stick with me, because I am 'good'. I am responsible and loyal and strong. So what happens if I am not those things? What happens if I am petulant and snarky and combative? If I am not 'good', will anyone stick around?

And again, I can totally relate.
It get's a bit better with time and age, because I used to be totally sure they would leave if I ever got to be "too much work", but some of it is still there at times.

 

[blulilacgrl]

Thanks to everyone who has responded. I think this is helping me wrap my head around what I am feeling. Although I still have questions. I know that it is wrong to label yourself but I am genuinely confused about where I stand in reference to what I want.

Because this is where I confuse myself. I don't want to be responsible. And I don't mean that in the sense of wanting someone else to be responsible for me and my decisions. I mean that I don't want to be responsible to or for anyone. I do not want to take even one more person on to my list of things to worry about in any capacity. I don't want to spend time worrying about if 'Sir' is happy with me, if I have pleased him, nor do I want to be responsible for someone else's happiness.

So what the hell am I?
I don't want to submit to anyone relationship wise because honestly I am way too spread thin as it is. Even though the idea of belonging is an incredible draw. So I think that rules out being a submissive, right?

I don't want to tell anyone else what to do because I don't want to be responsible for someone else's well-being or setting a scene or aftercare or anything. I don't want to be in control. So that kind of rules out Dominant, yes?

Is there some third option? And if so, can someone point me in the right direction?

A part of me thinks that the closest I can come to is being topped ( or would it be topping?) but can one be topped or bottom without being either a sub or Dominant? * I think this is where I need to go reread your essay, Stella

Is it possible within the BDSM community to not identify with either 'label' but still enjoy pain as an outlet for stress and for one's aggression to be a sole 'label'?

A friend told me that he thinks I have combined the stress relieve of letting out my aggression with sex. And that what I really wanted was a punching bag with a big dick to fuck me afterwards. And to tell the truth, that does sound really tempting.

Is there a subset within the BDSM community for people like me? There is so much within the community that I find amazing and intriguing and arousing. And I so want to experience it. But I find more and more that I want to experience it after getting in a few good licks of my own. Does that make sense to anyone?

 

[blulilacgrl]

Found it!

Stella~ Can you explain this to me. In your essay you say this

"The active person is the top, the receptive person is the bottom"

But now, what if you want to be both active and receptive. Does that make sense? A situation where you do not go into it with a sense of who will be doing what but a kind of 'to the victor goes the spoils' kind of mentality. While I may want to be beaten, whipped and/or caned... I don't want to submit to it. I want to fight. I want to be very active within the 'scene' (for lack of a better word). Am I misunderstanding the point?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Found it!

Stella~ Can you explain this to me. In your essay you say this

"The active person is the top, the receptive person is the bottom"

But now, what if you want to be both active and receptive. Does that make sense? A situation where you do not go into it with a sense of who will be doing what but a kind of 'to the victor goes the spoils' kind of mentality. While I may want to be beaten, whipped and/or caned... I don't want to submit to it. I want to fight. I want to be very active within the 'scene' (for lack of a better word). Am I misunderstanding the point?

yeah, maybe there's a better word that I can use rather than 'active?' And I know just what you mean. I would love to be a slave for a while-- not a submissive slave, but one that has to be kicked and dragged to my tasks, and complains about it until I get forcibly shut up. yeah...

Of course you can be active, you can fight, you can give as good as you get, and of course you can aim for an end result where you are the "loser" and get what you want or 'deserve'. Nothing has to be utterly binary. Why should it? I've never been able to bottom just passively like a lump. If my top has a body part anywhere near my face, I try to get my mouth on it. My tops like sensation, as much as I do.

I once watched a wonderful scene where the bottom was in partial suspension-- she had one leg free and could support herself on the ground with it. Her top was taunting her with a crop, prodding her and poking and slapping, and she would pull up her free leg and try to kick him when she could. he'd grab it and send her swinging... She was cussing and yelling back at him. At one point he hit her in the crotch and she said; "You do that I'm gonna squirt" so he did and she did.

A couple of youngsters standing by made some sneering remark about how she was topping from the bottom. You can imagine that I took a few minutes to school them

 

[Loverskitten]

I'm lazy and grumpy today so I just kind of skimmed, however, I'd guess you're switch. I'd also remind you that you can play without a relationship.

Sometimes just being by yourself, or treating yourself to a new toy feels great when you're frustrated with "others"

Also, I know there was a thread about "battle sex" I think we called it... it was a long time ago and the search function blows for me.
Sorry, I'm grumpy

 

[blulilacgrl]

yeah, maybe there's a better word that I can use rather than 'active?' And I know just what you mean. I would love to be a slave for a while-- not a submissive slave, but one that has to be kicked and dragged to my tasks, and complains about it until I get forcibly shut up. yeah...

Of course you can be active, you can fight, you can give as good as you get, and of course you can aim for an end result where you are the "loser" and get what you want or 'deserve'. Nothing has to be utterly binary. Why should it? I've never been able to bottom just passively like a lump. If my top has a body part anywhere near my face, I try to get my mouth on it. My tops like sensation, as much as I do.

I once watched a wonderful scene where the bottom was in partial suspension-- she had one leg free and could support herself on the ground with it. Her top was taunting her with a crop, prodding her and poking and slapping, and she would pull up her free leg and try to kick him when she could. he'd grab it and send her swinging... She was cussing and yelling back at him. At one point he hit her in the crotch and she said; "You do that I'm gonna squirt" so he did and she did.

A couple of youngsters standing by made some sneering remark about how she was topping from the bottom. You can imagine that I took a few minutes to school them

Except I don't want to pretend to fight. If I fight I am going to fight and give it my all. If you win? Great! Have at me. If I win? I get to have at you!

And I don't want to do tasks for anyone. I think I just want to fight and then fuck.

So what does that make me? Sub? Dom? Top? Bottom? Or something in between?

But I gotta say, that little vignette has sent all sorts of thoughts racing through my brain. Phwoar!

I'm lazy and grumpy today so I just kind of skimmed, however, I'd guess you're switch. I'd also remind you that you can play without a relationship.

Sometimes just being by yourself, or treating yourself to a new toy feels great when you're frustrated with "others"

Also, I know there was a thread about "battle sex" I think we called it... it was a long time ago and the search function blows for me.
Sorry, I'm grumpy

No worries. I am grumpy most days!

Battle sex? Now that sounds positively delicious! I think I am going to see if I can find that. Thanks!

 

[Loverskitten]

Found it!
http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=789291&highlight=Battle

 

[blulilacgrl]

Found it!
http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=789291&highlight=Battle

[laughs] Me too! I had just come back to post the link and found you have beaten me to the punch. Damn... shall we fight it out? *snicker*

I did read it and yes! yes! yes!

What Switchbitch said! (even though I am not sure if I feel like a switch. Honestly I don't 'feel' like anything)

Most of you know by now and the name will tell you if you didn't that I am a switch and on rare occasionsI get to play with other switches.One of the things that I find particularly enthralling and exciting is battle sex: the battle of wills and bodies to define which direction the dynamic is going to roll on each occasion.
The rush when I overcome my play pal excites my dominant side to the point where I get prickles all the way up my spine. And the sublime feeling of being overpowered heightens my submission and turns me to a puddle of goo.
On occasion I have played this game with those who were as a rule completely dominant or with those who are very submissive and they seem to have thoroughly enjoyed it as well even though it was not their natural state if they happened to "Lose".
It makes me think that perhaps many more of us have a touch of the switch than we think(and after reading the BDSM scores many of them seem to)or perhaps that we just want to see what it's like from the other side.
What do you guys think and do you enjoy battle sex?

I think for me it might be a way to get out my aggression in an 'acceptable' way and have a nice reward at the end of it. Maybe?

 

[ecstaticsub]

Except I don't want to pretend to fight. If I fight I am going to fight and give it my all. If you win? Great! Have at me. If I win? I get to have at you!

And I don't want to do tasks for anyone. I think I just want to fight and then fuck.

So what does that make me? Sub? Dom? Top? Bottom? Or something in between?

But I gotta say, that little vignette has sent all sorts of thoughts racing through my brain. Phwoar!

When I was reading this the first thing that came to mind was that it sounded like my vanilla-ish marriage. There are quite a few times where we are both super stressed and we seem to just slip into a kind of aggressive sex. We argue a bit, we wrestle a bit...but not really playfully in these cases..we really are wanting to win. Then we fuck hard until we are both exhausted.

I've had the same kind of sex very occasionally with my dominant. It works only if he is genuinely angry with me. He always ends up overpowering me and I end up in a very sweet subspace. Of course I don't want to make him angry on purpose so we don't end up in this scenario very often.

Very interesting thread that has made me think..thank you.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Except I don't want to pretend to fight. If I fight I am going to fight and give it my all. If you win? Great! Have at me. If I win? I get to have at you!

Don't make it too easy for me. You'll win damn near every time!

And I don't want to do tasks for anyone. I think I just want to fight and then fuck.

So what does that make me? Sub? Dom? Top? Bottom? Or something in between?

But I gotta say, that little vignette has sent all sorts of thoughts racing through my brain. Phwoar!

yeah, well the tasks that I anticipate are the kind where my knees get a little bit sore from the crawling around and my face gets sloppy with pussy juice, so...

 

[blulilacgrl]

Don't make it too easy for me. You'll win damn near every time!

yeah, well the tasks that I anticipate are the kind where my knees get a little bit sore from the crawling around and my face gets sloppy with pussy juice, so...

I wonder if I could 'throw a fight'. Like you, the 'loss' might be exactly what I want though.

 

[CutieMouse]

I've only skimmed, but what I've read seems like sadomasochism... which doesn't have to be "attached" in any way shape or form to dominance, or submission, or switching (IMO). You enjoy giving and/ or receiving pain (discomfort, grumpiness, whatever).

 

[Miles Long]

"Except I don't want to pretend to fight. If I fight I am going to fight and give it my all. If you win? Great! Have at me. If I win? I get to have at you!

And I don't want to do tasks for anyone. I think I just want to fight and then fuck.

So what does that make me? Sub? Dom? Top? Bottom? Or something in between?"


I don't think that has to have a label. Why can't you just be someone who wants to fight and fuck? To the victor go the spoils!

 

[blulilacgrl]

I've only skimmed, but what I've read seems like sadomasochism... which doesn't have to be "attached" in any way shape or form to dominance, or submission, or switching (IMO). You enjoy giving and/ or receiving pain (discomfort, grumpiness, whatever).

You know, I thought of that and the one thing that makes me wonder about it is that sadomasochism typically means deriving pleasure from pain. I don't think I necessarily derive pleasure from it. What I mean is that I do not get excited at the thought of giving or receiving pain, but I do get excited at the thought of a fight~ the adrenaline and the competitive rush of beating someone. Is that the same thing?

I don't think that has to have a label. Why can't you just be someone who wants to fight and fuck? To the victor go the spoils!

While I do understand your point and yeah everyone talks of no labels. But it feels weird to answer a question of 'which do you prefer' with neither or both. [laughs] And since this is a rather new realization, it would be nice to say 'I am interested in XYZ' or have a specific kink (? for lack of a better word) in order to explore it. To be able to look up 'battle sex' and see what others are saying and thinking and be able to see if it really is how I think or feel. Does that make sense?

 

[Stella_Omega]

"which do you prefer?"

Both!And I hope you're a switch too.

"Well, which do you prefer tonight?"

"Umm... Wanna arm wrestle?"

 

[Netzach]

What about hooking up with a non-submissive masochist who likes to fuck, like someone who could let you beat on them and then return the favor by banging you into next week?

Not that I've ever done this in the past.
yearight.

 

[Miles Long]

You know, I thought of that and the one thing that makes me wonder about it is that sadomasochism typically means deriving pleasure from pain. I don't think I necessarily derive pleasure from it. What I mean is that I do not get excited at the thought of giving or receiving pain, but I do get excited at the thought of a fight~ the adrenaline and the competitive rush of beating someone. Is that the same thing?




While I do understand your point and yeah everyone talks of no labels. But it feels weird to answer a question of 'which do you prefer' with neither or both. [laughs] And since this is a rather new realization, it would be nice to say 'I am interested in XYZ' or have a specific kink (? for lack of a better word) in order to explore it. To be able to look up 'battle sex' and see what others are saying and thinking and be able to see if it really is how I think or feel. Does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense, which is why in this particular case I think labels don't serve very well - unless we create a new label, like Battlefucker. Then you can say, "Hello, my name is Blu. I am a Battlefucker. I came here to battlefuck." Now maybe this is just because I am finishing a rather strong beer and it's been a very long week, but I really want Battlefucker to become an actual thing. Please make that happen.

 

[blulilacgrl]

"which do you prefer?"

Both!And I hope you're a switch too.

"Well, which do you prefer tonight?"

"Umm... Wanna arm wrestle?"

[laughs]

I am writing that down! Thank you!

 

[KinkyPan]

Except I don't want to pretend to fight. If I fight I am going to fight and give it my all. If you win? Great! Have at me. If I win? I get to have at you!

Holy shit! I SO. RARELY. hear anyone talk about what this thread is calling "battlefucking." It's something I love, love, love to do, but since so few people really get into it I don't often get to.

I've always called it "playing with power", and it's not just a physical contest, it's a game of wills and trading barbs and trash talk has always been part of it when I've been able to play that way.

All your defiance fits beautifully into that sort of dynamic, and I think (from what I've read on this thread; I know I don't actually know you) that it's something you would really gain a lot from trying sometime with a partner you click with.

As for how to label it? Meh. Labels are a shorthand which is very handy when trying to give someone a general idea of what you like, but it's not the end of the world to have to use eight words instead of one word whose meaning nobody entirely agrees upon anyway. (Although, I would say that, wordy as I am.)