Suspension of disbelief

[Alliecat1970]

A particular thought has been nibbling at the edges of my mind. I am coming to believe that any BDSM relationship requires a suspension of disbelief on the part of the participants. The language used, scenes, play session, etc. all indicate the aforementioned activities take place in time and space outside of real life. For me that realization has seemed to limit the excitement and impact of the activities in D/S context. Nothing wrong with the kinky, but it just seems to be missing something..... Could be just me.....

 

[laurasunshinegal]

what an interesting thing to say! i think that like a lot of things, D/s has to be practiced to be "real." for example a bachelor might love the single life, but suddenly one day his gf/wife moves in. single life is "real" and putting up with sharing the bathroom is first cute then sometimes a hassle... then one day it's just normal. just real. can't D/s be the same way?

 

[CutieMouse]

I think the suspension of disbelief kinda depends on how a relationship is structured.

My relationship do involve a power exchange; I consider them to be D/s. However, we don't "scene", we don't use "titles", there isn't any "special language" used, or specific "play", and we don't do the whole munches/ dungeons/ public play parties thing. (It doesn't mean those things NEVER happen, they just don't define D/s, for me.)

If I structured me relationships around the need for the above in order to "be D/s", then yes, for me *personally* there would be a feeling of static disconnect, instead of fluidity and balance. My need for fluidity and balance outweighs my need to do D/s in a socially recognized/ acceptable way, so I made (and make) it a point to only get involved with people who have a similar philosophy as myself.

 

[Alliecat1970]

Thank you, Laurasunshinegal and cutiemouse. I am still processing the thought, it seems like it should be simple but something is not firmed up in my head. It has to do with power exchange and whether that can exist, rally. We have to be responsible for ourselves ultimately, so can there be power exchange? If I can withdraw consent, then.....

BTW, cutiemouse, I have been lurking on Lit for a while and you always have thought provoking things to say. If I were of a different persuasion, this alliecat would totally chase you.

 

[Lord_Michael]

Interesting observation, Alliecat. But I rather think it's bass ackwards. At least IMX.

There is a clear and definite power exchange between my slave and me, and it has come to require no belief at all: it IS. I never doubt her. If I instruct her to do something, I am totally certain she is obeying and doing it, and there is no disbelief that must be suspended.

To me, if there is disbelief that must be suspended, then it isn't quite real - it's pretend, and it's not my cup of tea.

LM

 

[Alliecat1970]

Well and good, I agree. It does seem like pretend, which is where I am having the cognitive dissonance.

 

[Lord_Michael]

Perhaps my difficulty, Alliecat, has to do with "scenes and play sessions." We don't do those. What we do IS real life.

If that's the distinction, then I'm afraid I can't help - I have no experience with what you're describing.

But your use of the words "any BDSM relationship" indicates that you believe that ALL BDSM relationships are that way. My response was intended to indicate that they're not all like that.

LM

 

[Keroin]

Think of it like the military. The titles and rank aren't necessarily arbitrary but I'm sure there are varying degrees of competence among higher ranks. Nevertheless, everyone agrees to go along with the structure because without it you could never have an effective army. It's not a complete suspension of disbelief but moreso a mutual agreement that this structure will best serve everyone's needs.

As CM mentioned, not everyone in BDSM needs titles and strict protocol. But some do. That's just good old compatibility. Person A needs someone to assume a title and set rules, Person B needs to have a title and make someone else follow rules. Match! Yay!

Also, if you've ever fallen head over heels in love, consider that delightful swimmy feeling you get for the first several months, the one that makes you believe the object of your affection is PERFECT! BDSM is no different, when you're in the swoon stage, it's very, very easy to take on roles that in different circumstances might feel false or weird. Roles that start out feeling natural and positive are more easy to carry on with over time.

 

[CutieMouse]

Thank you, Laurasunshinegal and cutiemouse. I am still processing the thought, it seems like it should be simple but something is not firmed up in my head. It has to do with power exchange and whether that can exist, rally. We have to be responsible for ourselves ultimately, so can there be power exchange? If I can withdraw consent, then.....

BTW, cutiemouse, I have been lurking on Lit for a while and you always have thought provoking things to say. If I were of a different persuasion, this alliecat would totally chase you.

You're gonna go and make me blush...

We are ultimately responsible for our own lives - on both sides of the slash. However, in my universe, that responsibility takes on the added component that he demands I remain responsible. The only real "rule" in our relationship, is that I "protect myself from harm - emotional, physical, social, spiritual or mental."

That means sometimes I suck up and take charge. It means he supports without rescuing. Sometimes it means I flat out refuse to do X (with backup reasons why it's a good/bad idea). Sometimes it means I express concern and we both decide how to move forward. It means he recognizes that D/s isn't an escape clause [for either of us]. (There are moments when that is a royal pain in the ass, by the way. )

Maybe I don't view D/s as separate or disconnected from my everyday life, because we've found a way to create simple, standing "rules" (for lack of a better term) that acknowledge everyday life & D/s, and attempt to keep both in [reality] check.

 

[Alliecat1970]

Perhaps my difficulty, Alliecat, has to do with "scenes and play sessions." We don't do those. What we do IS real life.

If that's the distinction, then I'm afraid I can't help - I have no experience with what you're describing.

But your use of the words "any BDSM relationship" indicates that you believe that ALL BDSM relationships are that way. My response was intended to indicate that they're not all like that.

LM

Excellent point, Lord Michael, it is certainly not what I intended. I definitely cannot speak to, nor would I wish to, all BDSM relationships. Perils of typing out an idea I have not really gotten my mind completely around.

it just seems that perhaps outside of 24/7, I am not sure how to bring enough of the mental aspect of D/s to things in a way that is realistic without everything seem like it just for forms sake or... something.

 

[rinka]

The way I see it every relationship has a "distribution" of power. Depending on the character of and circumstances in the relationship the aspects or arenas where power is distributed or exchanged vary.

From this perspective D/s can be a magnifying glass, making these arenas of power more visible. Hopefully also giving us a chance to make more conscious choices regarding the power exchange. Bringing it to the surface to explore and play with.

Maybe the playing and "non-real" stuff can help clarify the real stuff - if that's the way you want to go.

 

[knot_sweet]

I think I understand...

In one of my previous relationships, we experimented with daddy/ daughter type stuff. He had specific scenarios and scripts he wanted to play with and I couldn't play along. It felt like acting to me. But when I was allowed to just be a bratty teenage girl without the script, it went very very well.

Likewise I don't do well with scenario style non-consent, though pre agreed non consent periods of time work very well.

It also irks me to use any title besides Sir and I refuse to be addressed as Mistress.

It just depends on your individual relationship. Some people really get off on exploring different characters, letting themselves slip their skin and indulge in something that regular life would never provide. I'm just not one of those people.

 

[Alliecat1970]

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts. CM - for a variety of reasons, we are not involved in any local activities, so that is not a factor. I do think we have gotten away from or never really had any rules that helped carry the dynamic into all aspects of the relationship. Something to think about, how it would work.

I think sometimes I have had too much of a peak behind the curtain and have seen too much of the great and powerful Oz... Which happens in relationships, but how does one unsee behind the curtain, and how does one reestablish the dynamic. Without it feeling fake.

Had talk with SO last night and we are going to try harder to carry things over. Best part of conversation was when I said I was always a good girl to be met with silence, the " Well, you're always a sweet girl...."

 

[Alliecat1970]

The way I see it every relationship has a "distribution" of power. Depending on the character of and circumstances in the relationship the aspects or arenas where power is distributed or exchanged vary.

From this perspective D/s can be a magnifying glass, making these arenas of power more visible. Hopefully also giving us a chance to make more conscious choices regarding the power exchange. Bringing it to the surface to explore and play with.

Maybe the playing and "non-real" stuff can help clarify the real stuff - if that's the way you want to go.

Thank you, Rinka. Perhaps by incorporating more aspects of a D/s dynamic into everyday life, it will start to feel less artificial again. Just have to figure out what is workable and not get lazy...

 

[Alliecat1970]

then you can withdraw from the power exchange.

What if a dominant simply looses taste for the challenges a relationship presents, feels that effort is not worth the reward. I have read many complaints by dominants of a feeling of uber-responsibility and pressure to perform. I too, often collapse under this feeling of expectation, like I am soley responsible for making something amazing.

Haven't figured out the multiple quotes thing yet, sorry all. SoO - I don't think it has to be big things. I don't want to put pressure on the relationship and have SO feel uber - responsibility. I am a firm believer that no one should be asked to do something they really have no desire to do. I certainly hope that is not the case in this situation.

 

[Noor]

don't all relationships and interactions require some level of suspension of disbelief? or at the very least a shared perception of events?

 

[MeekMe]

don't all relationships and interactions require some level of suspension of disbelief? or at the very least a shared perception of events?

I agree. After watching a romantic movie I start to think, "Mister should totally drop a one liner, whisk me off my feet and carry me off into the sunset."

He'd NEVER do that if I didn't tell him I wanted him to.

Since we can't read the minds of others and they can't read ours, there has to be spoken communication.

So let's say I tell Mister that I really want him to do that. He might, he might not. The moment he does it though, I realize and I can either choose to enjoy it, or become sour that he only did it because I told him I want him to. U_U;;

The words we use, they differ. Our relationship has it's own language. We don't use a lot of the lingo when talking to each other, but we do have words to describe it. Without them we wouldn't know what to do.

On a side note... That example is a poor one and I realize that if he did "carry me off into the sunset" I have no clue where we'd be going.

 

[DemandingDaddy]

All relationships have their own rules and roles. For some that may mean one party takes the trash out and the other does the dishes. In others one party might kneel by the door with nothing but a short skirt on and a smile while waiting for her Daddy to come home from work.

Sorry, kind of distracted myself there. I think my point was that all that matters is that the people involved enjoy and are happy with their "responsibilities" within the relationship. As with any relationship, learning about each other and settling into your relationship dynamic takes time. Don't be afraid of exploration and finding the new normal that works for you and makes you happy. It can be a role play in the bedroom or a part of your everyday life. That is up to you.

 

[Ahlam]

A particular thought has been nibbling at the edges of my mind. I am coming to believe that any BDSM relationship requires a suspension of disbelief on the part of the participants. The language used, scenes, play session, etc. all indicate the aforementioned activities take place in time and space outside of real life. For me that realization has seemed to limit the excitement and impact of the activities in D/S context. Nothing wrong with the kinky, but it just seems to be missing something..... Could be just me.....

Much of "the scene" strikes me as overly-contrived, but that just tells me that those things are not what I am into. Sometimes it makes sense to be a good sport and play along, but, just like reading a story, if I have to think too hard to make myself go along with an increasing fantastical sequence of events, then it will not be enjoyable. That's a good thing, I think! That's where the whole "your kink is not my kink" just might make sense.

So this one time at band camp...

I was dressed as an elf and locked into a pillory. My ass was being paddled by a someone dressed as a wizard. I would have laughed hysterically and destroyed the fantasy, except that paddle connecting with my ass was very real indeed. So, sometimes the right element of reality is enough to make you go along with something you otherwise might not. Some experiences may overwhelm any need to suspend disbelief.

 

[Pachet]

For me it all goes back to how I feel about my Dom. I need to trust him, but be scared of him. Everything else flows from that. It doesn't matter what the scene is, how simple or elaborate-costumes, titles, role play, ect. Because of how I feel about him, it's all real to me, it all takes me there.

 

[KoPilot]

All relationships require the use of symbols and contrivances to keep things together. At some point, if you keep asking if such-in-such is fake, if they're only doing the thing because you want them to or because they want to make you happy, then the end of that rabbit-hole is that everything that anyone does for the sake of a relationship is pomp, and the only truly genuine person is one that lives alone and entirely cut off from everyone else.

And sometimes theatrics ARE genuine. Sometimes psychodrama is the most real thing that there is. I have no idea how a person could absolutely convince themselves otherwise.

 

[desertslave]

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts. CM - for a variety of reasons, we are not involved in any local activities, so that is not a factor. I do think we have gotten away from or never really had any rules that helped carry the dynamic into all aspects of the relationship. Something to think about, how it would work.

I think sometimes I have had too much of a peak behind the curtain and have seen too much of the great and powerful Oz... Which happens in relationships, but how does one unsee behind the curtain, and how does one reestablish the dynamic. Without it feeling fake.

Had talk with SO last night and we are going to try harder to carry things over. Best part of conversation was when I said I was always a good girl to be met with silence, the " Well, you're always a sweet girl...."

Peeking behind the curtain can be a tricky thing, but ultimately it's just part of life. I know my Master isn't perfect, and he knows I'm not perfect either. We've demonstrated that to each other more than once. But, it just IS. The assumption that we have to be perfect is what gets in the way. Accepting each other for who we truly are, warts and all, is part of what makes it work long-term. IMO it's just like any other relationship, and we have mutually accepted a structure that makes it work for us.

As Master once told me "D/s is how we love, BDSM is how we make love."

 

[l1sha]

I guess it could feel pretend depending on the style of the relationship. It doesn't feel pretend for me though. It wouldn't work for me if it did. I'm not an actress at all, so roleplaying wouldn't work for me. He does what comes naturally for him in our relationship and I do what comes naturally for me. Some of what comes naturally for him though has been tempered by my boundaries. But having boundaries doesn't make it pretend. It's very real, within the boundaries. I like the example given regarding household activiites. If I compare our sexual activities to him taking out the trash, he's in charge of it, but within limits. He can't do anything he wants with the trash. He could twirl the bag in the air as he takes it to the garbage can, but it's not ok if he throws the trash all over our meal at the dinner table. So, there has to be limits, at least regarding health and safety, even when someone is in charge of something.

 

[Ruby_Atom]

It you are getting physical and emotional satisfaction out of it, then yes, it's real. It doesn't matter what you call each other, what you do for a job, whether the activity is planned or spontaneous. Your feelings are real.

 

[ecstaticsub]

Peeking behind the curtain can be a tricky thing, but ultimately it's just part of life. I know my Master isn't perfect, and he knows I'm not perfect either. We've demonstrated that to each other more than once. But, it just IS. The assumption that we have to be perfect is what gets in the way. Accepting each other for who we truly are, warts and all, is part of what makes it work long-term. IMO it's just like any other relationship, and we have mutually accepted a structure that makes it work for us.

As Master once told me "D/s is how we love, BDSM is how we make love."

I like this, very well said!