Obama orders CDC gun violence study, study shreds his position

[CHNOPS]

From the dummies at Harvard.

1-2. Gun availability is a risk factor for suicide (literature reviews).

We performed reviews of the academic literature on the effects of gun availability on suicide rates. The preponderance of current evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for youth suicide in the United States. The evidence that gun availability increases the suicide rates of adults is credible, but is currently less compelling. Most of the disaggregate findings of particular studies (e.g. handguns are more of a risk factor than long guns, guns stored unlocked pose a greater risk than guns stored locked) are suggestive but not yet well established.

3. Across states, more guns = more suicide (cross sectional analyses)

Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership rates, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and suicide across 50 states over a ten year period (1988-1997). After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, across the United States, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of suicide, particularly firearm suicide.

Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and suicide across states, 1999-2001. States with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm suicide and overall suicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups. It remained true after accounting for poverty, urbanization and unemployment. There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm suicide.

Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and suicide over time, 1981-2001. Changes in the levels of household firearm gun ownership was significantly associated with changes in both firearm suicide and overall suicide, for men, women and children, even after controlling for region, unemployment, alcohol consumption and poverty. There was no relationship between changes in gun ownership and changes in non-firearm suicide.

8. Differences in mental health cannot explain the regional more guns = more suicide connection.

We analyzed the relationship of gun availability and suicide among differing age groups across the 9 US regions. Levels of gun ownership are highly correlated with suicide rates across all age groups, even after controlling for lifetime major depression and serious suicidal thoughts

11. Adolescents who commit suicide with a gun use the family gun

The vast majority of adolescent suicide guns come from parents of other family members.

22. Differences in suicide rates across the US are best explained by gun prevalence

This summary of the scientific literature on suicide in the United States emphasizes the importance of levels of household firearm ownership in explaining different rates of suicide over time and across states, households and genders.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deboarh; Barber, Catherine. Suicide mortality in the United States: The importance of attending to method in understanding population-level disparities in the burden of suicide. Annual Review of Public Health 2012;33:393-408.

24. The main factor explaining differences in suicide rates across states is gun ownership

Even after accounting for suicide attempt rates, levels of firearm ownership largely explain the variation in suicide mortality across the 50 states.

Full report here, with references for each statement.

 

[Byron In Exile]

From the dummies at Harvard.

1-2. Gun availability is a risk factor for suicide (literature reviews).

We performed reviews of the academic literature on the effects of gun availability on suicide rates. The preponderance of current evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for youth suicide in the United States. The evidence that gun availability increases the suicide rates of adults is credible, but is currently less compelling. Most of the disaggregate findings of particular studies (e.g. handguns are more of a risk factor than long guns, guns stored unlocked pose a greater risk than guns stored locked) are suggestive but not yet well established.

3. Across states, more guns = more suicide (cross sectional analyses)

Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership rates, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and suicide across 50 states over a ten year period (1988-1997). After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, across the United States, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of suicide, particularly firearm suicide.

Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and suicide across states, 1999-2001. States with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm suicide and overall suicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups. It remained true after accounting for poverty, urbanization and unemployment. There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm suicide.

Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and suicide over time, 1981-2001. Changes in the levels of household firearm gun ownership was significantly associated with changes in both firearm suicide and overall suicide, for men, women and children, even after controlling for region, unemployment, alcohol consumption and poverty. There was no relationship between changes in gun ownership and changes in non-firearm suicide.

8. Differences in mental health cannot explain the regional more guns = more suicide connection.

We analyzed the relationship of gun availability and suicide among differing age groups across the 9 US regions. Levels of gun ownership are highly correlated with suicide rates across all age groups, even after controlling for lifetime major depression and serious suicidal thoughts

11. Adolescents who commit suicide with a gun use the family gun

The vast majority of adolescent suicide guns come from parents of other family members.

22. Differences in suicide rates across the US are best explained by gun prevalence

This summary of the scientific literature on suicide in the United States emphasizes the importance of levels of household firearm ownership in explaining different rates of suicide over time and across states, households and genders.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deboarh; Barber, Catherine. Suicide mortality in the United States: The importance of attending to method in understanding population-level disparities in the burden of suicide. Annual Review of Public Health 2012;33:393-408.

24. The main factor explaining differences in suicide rates across states is gun ownership

Even after accounting for suicide attempt rates, levels of firearm ownership largely explain the variation in suicide mortality across the 50 states.

Full report here, with references for each statement.

Suicide rates per 100,000

1 Greenland 108.1
2 South Korea 31.7
3 Lithuania 31.6
4 Guyana 26.4
5 Kazakhstan 25.6
6 Belarus 22.9
7 China 22.23
8 Slovenia 21.8
9 Hungary 21.7
10 Japan 21.7
11 Sri Lanka 21.6
12 Ukraine 21.2
13 Russia 20.2
14 Croatia 19.7
15 Latvia 18.2
16 Moldova 17.4
17 Serbia 17.3
18 Belgium 17
19 Finland 16.8
20 Bhutan 16.2
21 Uruguay 15.8
22 South Africa 15.4
23 Poland 15.4
24 Taiwan 15.1
25 Estonia 14.8
26 France 14.7
27 Suriname 14.4
28 Bosnia and Herzegovina 13.3
29 Austria 12.8
30 Czech Republic 12.8
31 Cuba 12.3
32 Bulgaria 12.3
33 Romania 12.0
34 United States 12.0
35 Sweden 11.9
36 Norway 11.9
37 United Kingdom 11.8
38 New Zealand 11.5
39 Portugal 11.5
40 Canada 11.5
41 Ireland 11.4
42 Denmark 11.3
43 Iceland 11.3
44 Chile 11.2
45 Switzerland 11.1
46 Trinidad and Tobago 10.7
47 India 10.5
48 Slovakia 9.9
49 Germany 9.9
50 Australia 9.7
51 Kyrgyzstan 8.8
52 Turkmenistan 8.6
53 Netherlands 8.5
54 Republic of Macedonia 8.0
55 El Salvador 8.0
56 Zimbabwe 7.9
57 Luxembourg 7.8
58 Thailand 7.8
59 Argentina 7.7
60 Spain 7.6​

Must be an awful lot of guns in Greenland.

 

[John Doe]

It would be nice to have a link to the actual CDC study, and not to some crap, probably right wing website, to see what the data shows.

But even using the data in question, there is still a problem with gun violence. If 39% of the 335,000 gun deaths were violent crime, that means that well over 100,000 deaths during this period were caused by guns.

The other problem is that the data given doesn't talk about how many people were shot by guns illegally during this period who didn't die, how many were there? You hear the news in NYC, and you hear that a drive by shooting happened and for every death, there are 4 or 5 who were hurt...so wounding doesn't matter?

Actually, there have been a lot of people in the government who want to study gun violence, and the conservatives have used their power in congress to block funding and to forbid federal agencies to do any comprehensive studies on gun violence and the root causes, or to evaluate how much the legal gun trade feeds the illegal one.......and if the gun nuts are so certain guns aren't the answer, how come the wingnuts contrinue to block using federal funds to study the real truth about gun violence, if they aren't afraid the truth is, that easy access to guns is feeding the murder and violent crime rate. All I need mention is Texas has one of the most liberal gun laws in this country, and has one of the higher violent crime and homicide rates, and a number of other states with easy access to guns are up there as well.

Let's compare Texas to Vermont:

Gun violence in the US by state


Gun laws in the US by state

 

[John Doe]

^ Lazy screwball.

Because the web searches I performed before I politely requested your source returned literally zero results? How does that work? Help me out here because my poor, beleaguered, screwball mind just can't wrap itself around that.

 

[CHNOPS]

Must be an awful lot of guns in Greenland.

Remind me when Greenland became a US state...?

 

[Byron In Exile]

Remind me when Greenland became a US state...?

^ Joke.

 

[CHNOPS]

^ Joke.

I'm a legend in Greenland.

You should post more about Greenland. It's always relevant, no matter the topic.

More Greenland!

 

[Boxlicker101]

It would be nice to have a link to the actual CDC study, and not to some crap, probably right wing website, to see what the data shows.

But even using the data in question, there is still a problem with gun violence. If 39% of the 335,000 gun deaths were violent crime, that means that well over 100,000 deaths during this period were caused by guns.

The other problem is that the data given doesn't talk about how many people were shot by guns illegally during this period who didn't die, how many were there? You hear the news in NYC, and you hear that a drive by shooting happened and for every death, there are 4 or 5 who were hurt...so wounding doesn't matter?

Actually, there have been a lot of people in the government who want to study gun violence, and the conservatives have used their power in congress to block funding and to forbid federal agencies to do any comprehensive studies on gun violence and the root causes, or to evaluate how much the legal gun trade feeds the illegal one.......and if the gun nuts are so certain guns aren't the answer, how come the wingnuts contrinue to block using federal funds to study the real truth about gun violence, if they aren't afraid the truth is, that easy access to guns is feeding the murder and violent crime rate. All I need mention is Texas has one of the most liberal gun laws in this country, and has one of the higher violent crime and homicide rates, and a number of other states with easy access to guns are up there as well.

But 39% of the gun deaths do not result from violent crime. There are also accidental shootings and justifiable homicides.

How can you say federal funds were not used to study gun violence? This whole thread is about such a study.

 

[Byron In Exile]

I'm a legend in Greenland.

You should post more about Greenland. It's always relevant, no matter the topic.

More Greenland!

You're funnier when you try to be serious.

 

[John Doe]

But 39% of the gun deaths do not result from violent crime. There are also accidental shootings and justifiable homicides.

How can you say federal funds were not used to study gun violence? This whole thread is about such a study.

There is no such thing as an accidental shooting. They are negligent shootings.

 

[Byron In Exile]

Because the web searches I performed before I politely requested your source returned literally zero results? How does that work? Help me out here because my poor, beleaguered, screwball mind just can't wrap itself around that.

Zero results?

Are we using the same Internets?

Because we started at the same place, and I found out what I wanted to know.

 

[John Doe]

Zero results?

Are we using the same Internets?

Because we started at the same place, and I found out what I wanted to know.

What makes you think we started at the same place?

 

[CHNOPS]

You're funnier when you try to be serious.

Since you're in full Byron mode now, I'll help you. I posted research about the US. It doesn't say "guns cause suicide." It says that in the US, more guns means more suicide, even when controlling for mental illness. Since that's the topic of the thread, I thought I'd throw some data into the mix.

Now you go. You posted about Greenland. Either you think it's a US state, or you're trying to say that if, anywhere in the world, there is a suicide that isn't because of guns, then no data that connects the two here can be correct.

Neither one of those is very flattering to you. Hence Byron mode.

 

[Byron In Exile]

From the dummies at Harvard.

Thanks for at least confirming the high incidence of dummies at Harvard.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Let's compare Texas to Vermont:

Gun violence in the US by state


Gun laws in the US by state

Let's compare DC to Texas.

 

[Byron In Exile]

What makes you think we started at the same place?

By that I meant we started not knowing the annual suicide rates of the countries I listed.

 

[Byron In Exile]

Since you're in full Byron mode now, I'll help you.

As long as we're not cross, Ed, I'm game.

I posted research about the US. It doesn't say "guns cause suicide." It says that in the US, more guns means more suicide,

If guns caused suicide, that might be of significance. What's the significance of "guns mean more suicide," by contrast? If States that have more people have more suicides, why is that notable?

even when controlling for mental illness. Since that's the topic of the thread, I thought I'd throw some data into the mix.

So having "thrown in" some data, what do you suppose you've demonstrated?

Now you go. You posted about Greenland. Either you think it's a US state, or you're trying to say that if, anywhere in the world, there is a suicide that isn't because of guns, then no data that connects the two here can be correct.

Worldwide, there is no correlation between the number of, availability of, access to, or ownership of guns and the number of annual suicides.

That one can look at the United States in isolation and find correlations in a quest to imply, as your Harvard dummies are straining to do, that guns cause suicides, just doesn't hold water in a world where the US rate is almost the same as the UK, and lower than France, Japan, China, and Russia.

Neither one of those is very flattering to you. Hence Byron mode.

I don't give a flying damn about what you find flattering or what modes you want to invent, Ed. Take the chip off your shoulder and set it down and then we can talk, or go for your gun and I'll gut you where you stand. But I see no reason we can't be friends.

 

[John Doe]

By that I meant we started not knowing the annual suicide rates of the countries I listed.

That's what I figured you meant, so no. We didn't. I already knew (roughly) the rates for the US, the UK, Germany and a few others. I also started from a different place in that I know the mature thing to do in a discussion is to support my own claims instead of expecting someone else to do it for me.

 

[CHNOPS]

Jesus.

Goodnight, Lit.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

The method of suicide is really a meaningless argument.



And when we examine, as lauren was urging us to do, the gun problem with the, what 100,000 deaths, we might ask ourselves, how many of these are results of the war on drugs and the racial component of championing, tolerating, and excusing the cultures of violence in our urban youth and our inability to combat it for fear of being labeled as racists?

Clearly, the gun is not the problem, for one could just as easily blame the ammunition whose absence would render the gun to the status of emergency hammer...

 

[Byron In Exile]

That's what I figured you meant, so no. We didn't. I already knew (roughly) the rates for the US, the UK, Germany and a few others.

As did I, so I think we did.

I also started from a different place in that I know the mature thing to do in a discussion is to support my own claims instead of expecting someone else to do it for me.

The mature thing to do in a discussion is to look up basic stuff yourself, and not demand someone else do your legwork to prove things to you that are general information and aren't even in dispute. Most of the time when someone does this they aren't interested, anyway. Trying to get someone else to jump through hoops just for the hell of it is also called trolling.

Is there something in particular about the data I presented to which you take exception?

 

[Byron In Exile]

Jesus.

Goodnight, Lit.

This must be, "Sonny Surrender Mode," eh, Ed?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

As did I, so I think we did.

The mature thing to do in a discussion is to look up basic stuff yourself, and not demand someone else do your legwork to prove things to you that are general information and aren't even in dispute. Most of the time when someone does this they aren't interested, anyway. Trying to get someone else to jump through hoops just for the hell of it is also called trolling.

Is there something in particular about the data I presented to which you take exception?

Its a fools-errand, too. Your opponent rarely if ever accepts your source as legit.

 

[John Doe]

As did I, so I think we did.

The mature thing to do in a discussion is to look up basic stuff yourself, and not demand someone else do your legwork to prove things to you that are general information and aren't even in dispute. Most of the time when someone does this they aren't interested, anyway. Trying to get someone else to jump through hoops just for the hell of it is also called trolling.

Is there something in particular about the data I presented to which you take exception?

As I have already pointed out, I did do the work myself. And as should be apparent after four years of activity on Lit is that I'm not like most people. I ask a question because I want the answer, period.

I take no exception to the data. If it's such "basic stuff" why should I?

What I'm asking for is the source for your implication that worldwide suicide rates are relevant to US suicide rates.

 

[unregistered]