Chapter Books

[Neonurotic]

I was thinking of writing a chapter book for my daughter, an ongoing one I can give her at one point in her life and I was wondering how you set one up? Details, how many poems, pages and etc.

 

[bogusagain]

You can do it all yourself now on word and upload it and get it printed off at www.lulu.com They have a calculator so you can work out the price of the format you have chosen.

Several years ago I made a couple of poetry books on lulu with poets off Lit and actually sold around 300 copies each, which isn't bad for poetry. That book had about 90 poems in it but most poetry bundles on my shelf have between 35 - 50 poems in them.

Traditional Chapter books have 24 pages and mostly don't have a cover and were just a cheap way of printing. Nowadays, most have covers but new technology making better quality printing cheaper because you don't need to make a big run to keep the cost down, has sort of made traditional chapbooks redundant.

Let us know how you get on if you do it.

 

[Neonurotic]

Thank you, I forgot about Lulu having printed books with all the indie e-pubs like Smashwords and Amazon. Sounds like the way to go for my little poem book for my daughter.

 

[Angeline]

Thank you, I forgot about Lulu having printed books with all the indie e-pubs like Smashwords and Amazon. Sounds like the way to go for my little poem book for my daughter.

It's a lovely idea Neo. If you want anyone to look at the poems for order or just to have a fresh set of eyes on them, let me know.

One thing our old friend darkmaas taught me about publishing is that order of poems is more important than one might first think. You may want the order to tell a story, much as the poems do.

 

[Neonurotic]

Thank you Ange, I will ask. I really would like this to be a keepie for her.

 

[Angeline]

Thank you Ange, I will ask. I really would like this to be a keepie for her.

Just let me know, Papa. I understand.

 

[Tzara]

It's a lovely idea Neo. If you want anyone to look at the poems for order or just to have a fresh set of eyes on them, let me know.

One thing our old friend darkmaas taught me about publishing is that order of poems is more important than one might first think. You may want the order to tell a story, much as the poems do.

Sorry to intrude on this thread, but I think a thread about

...that order of poems is more important than one might first think. You may want the order to tell a story, much as the poems do.

ordering poems in a submission would be one I'd be interested in.

When one is presenting several poems, the order in which they appear seems particularly important.

I'd like to talk about that.

 

[butters]

what a wonderfully personal gift for your daughter, neo

angie's right about the ordering - if affects the whole feel of a book.

for example, one i had sent me by another poet more or less runs true time-wise: there are pieces about several lovers, then about his wife, the arrival of their baby, some dedicated directly to memories of the daughter he then loses to illness, the breakdown of his marriage, then several more to mistresses with ones about the divorced partner and the times they still share in between. there's no in-your-face layout, but it's clear this is about all the women in his life and their affect on him, and even how he still has fond/erotic/bad memories of them from years back that entertain his thoughts yet. i think it was loosely broken down into 3 parts, but the theme runs throughout.

best of luck with this, neo.

 

[Angeline]

Sorry to intrude on this thread, but I think a thread about ordering poems in a submission would be one I'd be interested in.

When one is presenting several poems, the order in which they appear seems particularly important.

I'd like to talk about that.

You intrude? Nevah!

So nu start the thread (although it may already be happening on its own here....)

 

[Neonurotic]

Sorry to intrude on this thread, but I think a thread about ordering poems in a submission would be one I'd be interested in.

When one is presenting several poems, the order in which they appear seems particularly important.

I'd like to talk about that.

You intrude? Nevah!

So nu start the thread (although it may already be happening on its own here....)

No new thread is necessary. The topic will fit, go ahead and discuss order of poems for submission here.

 

[Angeline]

No new thread is necessary. The topic will fit, go ahead and discuss order of poems for submission here.

Ok.

When you put together a group of poems for a book, you need to think of the overall narrative arc it will deliver to the reader. It may be an arc driven by plot, time, setting, theme or really whatever. All combinations and permutations are possible and you have to decide what works best with what you have.

Some themes set the order. For example, say you are writing poems about the seasons or astrological signs. You'd probably want them to follow a linear order to make it easier for the reader to see where you're going. Unless there's a reason for it, you don't want your reader jumping around trying to figure out what the point is. I think the most important thing is that order should be intentional, whatever it is. This is your book and you should know in advance where in the mix you want your reader to encounter poem x. You don't want to leave that to chance or publishers (I've worked for publishing houses and they will make such decisions if you don't...unless of course you're self-publishing).

Then there is the consideration of how strong your poems are. You know within a group of poems which you think are stronger and which weaker, which poems are powerful and which have more muted effects. So you need to think about how to make an order of that. Where do you want to begin and end? How do you put it together to be true to your purpose but also keep a reader interested? I think it helps to read some of your favorite poetry books. Look at how the author ordered the poems and consider how well it supports what you believe the poet is trying to say. Some books will be better at this than others. Just as reading poetry helps you learn to write it better, so will studying how others treat order get you thinking about what might work for your batch of poems.

You also have tools at hand to help support whatever your purpose. You might use subheadings, drawings, photographs or other non-poem devices that underscore what you're trying to do. Like I said, one has a world of options and the key is to leave as little to chance as possible.

These are just my opinions and I'll be interested to hear what others think about it.

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

No new thread is necessary. The topic will fit, go ahead and discuss order of poems for submission here.

For a while, poems submitted with a common word were added as a group (see my "album" series) but "The Bar" series got jumbled, probably my fault but can we, should we, rely on the people who check the content to place them other than alphabetically?

 

[Cinner]

Ok.

When you put together a group of poems for a book, you need to think of the overall narrative arc it will deliver to the reader. It may be an arc driven by plot, time, setting, theme or really whatever. All combinations and permutations are possible and you have to decide what works best with what you have.

Some themes set the order. For example, say you are writing poems about the seasons or astrological signs. You'd probably want them to follow a linear order to make it easier for the reader to see where you're going. Unless there's a reason for it, you don't want your reader jumping around trying to figure out what the point is. I think the most important thing is that order should be intentional, whatever it is. This is your book and you should know in advance where in the mix you want your reader to encounter poem x. You don't want to leave that to chance or publishers (I've worked for publishing houses and they will make such decisions if you don't...unless of course you're self-publishing).

Then there is the consideration of how strong your poems are. You know within a group of poems which you think are stronger and which weaker, which poems are powerful and which have more muted effects. So you need to think about how to make an order of that. Where do you want to begin and end? How do you put it together to be true to your purpose but also keep a reader interested? I think it helps to read some of your favorite poetry books. Look at how the author ordered the poems and consider how well it supports what you believe the poet is trying to say. Some books will be better at this than others. Just as reading poetry helps you learn to write it better, so will studying how others treat order get you thinking about what might work for your batch of poems.

You also have tools at hand to help support whatever your purpose. You might use subheadings, drawings, photographs or other non-poem devices that underscore what you're trying to do. Like I said, one has a world of options and the key is to leave as little to chance as possible.

These are just my opinions and I'll be interested to hear what others think about it.

This is what I love about Literotica! One can learn so much about writing by reading what others have to say here!

Would you believe that it was only today that I had the conscious thought that a poem is supposed to tell a story? I'm evolving!

 

[greenmountaineer]

Ok.

When you put together a group of poems for a book, you need to think of the overall narrative arc it will deliver to the reader. It may be an arc driven by plot, time, setting, theme or really whatever. All combinations and permutations are possible and you have to decide what works best with what you have.

Some themes set the order.......

Then there is the consideration of how strong your poems are.......

You also have tools at hand to help support whatever your purpose. You might use subheadings, drawings, photographs or other non-poem devices that underscore what you're trying to do. Like I said, one has a world of options and the key is to leave as little to chance as possible.

These are just my opinions and I'll be interested to hear what others think about it.

I think an epigraph or two may be helpful, depending how many poems there are, particularly when the poet realizes a selection's connection to the thematic structure may be otherwise a bit confusing.

 

[Tzara]

Ok.

When you put together a group of poems for a book, you need to think of the overall narrative arc it will deliver to the reader. It may be an arc driven by plot, time, setting, theme or really whatever. All combinations and permutations are possible and you have to decide what works best with what you have.

Some themes set the order. For example, say you are writing poems about the seasons or astrological signs. You'd probably want them to follow a linear order to make it easier for the reader to see where you're going. Unless there's a reason for it, you don't want your reader jumping around trying to figure out what the point is. I think the most important thing is that order should be intentional, whatever it is. This is your book and you should know in advance where in the mix you want your reader to encounter poem x. You don't want to leave that to chance or publishers (I've worked for publishing houses and they will make such decisions if you don't...unless of course you're self-publishing).

Then there is the consideration of how strong your poems are. You know within a group of poems which you think are stronger and which weaker, which poems are powerful and which have more muted effects. So you need to think about how to make an order of that. Where do you want to begin and end? How do you put it together to be true to your purpose but also keep a reader interested? I think it helps to read some of your favorite poetry books. Look at how the author ordered the poems and consider how well it supports what you believe the poet is trying to say. Some books will be better at this than others. Just as reading poetry helps you learn to write it better, so will studying how others treat order get you thinking about what might work for your batch of poems.

You also have tools at hand to help support whatever your purpose. You might use subheadings, drawings, photographs or other non-poem devices that underscore what you're trying to do. Like I said, one has a world of options and the key is to leave as little to chance as possible.

These are just my opinions and I'll be interested to hear what others think about it.

Well, yes, yes, yes.

I guess my problem is more of a practical one. I'm not trying to compose a book. I'm trying to build a submission document for grad school. I'd like to include a variety of poems (some elegies, some "funny" poems, some nature poems, some a bit confessional poems).

Perhaps the mixture is not the right idea in the first place.

I'd like to submit some variety of poems. Is that misguided?

Do any of you have any experience in this? (Applying to an MFA program.) If so, I'd sure appreciate your input.

 

[Angeline]

Well, yes, yes, yes.

I guess my problem is more of a practical one. I'm not trying to compose a book. I'm trying to build a submission document for grad school. I'd like to include a variety of poems (some elegies, some "funny" poems, some nature poems, some a bit confessional poems).

Perhaps the mixture is not the right idea in the first place.

I'd like to submit some variety of poems. Is that misguided?

Do any of you have any experience in this? (Applying to an MFA program.) If so, I'd sure appreciate your input.

I have not applied for an MFA although I keep saying I want to (at Naropa's program). I presume they want a portfolio from you, right? There should be some guidelines for submissions available and, if the school is local, you might be able to see samples if you visit. At the very least they should be able to tell you about how many pages (or poems) they want.

Of course you want to demonstrate your range, but if you stick with what you know is good and not over-worry about categories I know you'll have a good outcome. I have faith in your poems.

 

[Tzara]

I have not applied for an MFA although I keep saying I want to (at Naropa's program). I presume they want a portfolio from you, right? There should be some guidelines for submissions available and, if the school is local, you might be able to see samples if you visit. At the very least they should be able to tell you about how many pages (or poems) they want.

Of course you want to demonstrate your range, but if you stick with what you know is good and not over-worry about categories I know you'll have a good outcome. I have faith in your poems.

Programs seem to want somewhere between 10 and 20 pages of poetry for evaluation. Some, like UBC, want submissions in multiple genres, which kind of appeals to me, actually.

Perhaps I am overthinking this.

Why does the Naropa program attract you, particularly?

By the way, the low-res program there seems to be on hiatus.

 

[Angeline]

Programs seem to want somewhere between 10 and 20 pages of poetry for evaluation. Some, like UBC, want submissions in multiple genres, which kind of appeals to me, actually.

Perhaps I am overthinking this.

Why does the Naropa program attract you, particularly?

By the way, the low-res program there seems to be on hiatus.

Hmmm I see the low-res program isn't accepting any new students until 2015. Good, that gives me time to find a bunch of money. EE and I currently have two kids in college and a third headed there, so I guess I can continue just thinking about it for a while.

I've always been kind of enchanted with Naropa (since I first heard about it in the 1990s). I like its history: the fact that it was started by people like Ginsburg, Ann Waldman, Alice Notley. Also Naropa was the only school in the USA to offer a fellowship in Ted Berrigan's name (dunno whether they still do, but I know his son still teaches there periodically, so maybe). That they would honor a poet like Berrigan says a lot to me about the kinds of poetry they seem to value. Poets I really respect have taught there.

I once worked with a guy who was in their writing program as an undergraduate and was very impressed with what he had to say about the way they marry mindfulness to creativity there. I'm not a Buddhist but I meditate every day and have for years. So that aspect appeals to me. I get the sense that their approach is rather different from, say, the Iowa Writers' Workshop. I have spent a fair amount of time in Iowa City and worked with people in the program there and I know a place like that (assuming I could even get in) is not for me. It's too traditionally academic there for my tastes.

And I must admit, I would love to say I got my MFA from the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics. I mean who wouldn't want that on their degree?

Also, Boulder. I would love to spend time there, if even just during their summer writing festival.

 

[Tzara]

Hmmm I see the low-res program isn't accepting any new students until 2015. Good, that gives me time to find a bunch of money. EE and I currently have two kids in college and a third headed there, so I guess I can continue just thinking about it for a while.

I've always been kind of enchanted with Naropa (since I first heard about it in the 1990s). I like its history: the fact that it was started by people like Ginsburg, Ann Waldman, Alice Notley. Also Naropa was the only school in the USA to offer a fellowship in Ted Berrigan's name (dunno whether they still do, but I know his son still teaches there periodically, so maybe). That they would honor a poet like Berrigan says a lot to me about the kinds of poetry they seem to value. Poets I really respect have taught there.

I once worked with a guy who was in their writing program as an undergraduate and was very impressed with what he had to say about the way they marry mindfulness to creativity there. I'm not a Buddhist but I meditate every day and have for years. So that aspect appeals to me. I get the sense that their approach is rather different from, say, the Iowa Writers' Workshop. I have spent a fair amount of time in Iowa City and worked with people in the program there and I know a place like that (assuming I could even get in) is not for me. It's too traditionally academic there for my tastes.

And I must admit, I would love to say I got my MFA from the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics. I mean who wouldn't want that on their degree?

Also, Boulder. I would love to spend time there, if even just during their summer writing festival.

Well, they've got a to kill for different catchphrase, that's for sure.

And Boulder is beautiful any time of year.

But, you know, the Warren Wilson College MFA low-res is just west of you. It may be the most prestigious low-res program there is. And I could stay in that second bedroom you guys have!

Oh, you don't? Too cramped an apartment?

Sorry.

I'm actually looking at several programs, with fun residencies in the northwest.

I'm kind of wandering here. Perhaps I should start a different thread.

You guys might not like those late night sunn(o))) concerts. Especially at full volume.

 

[Angeline]

Well, they've got a to kill for different catchphrase, that's for sure.

And Boulder is beautiful any time of year.

But, you know, the Warren Wilson College MFA low-res is just west of you. It may be the most prestigious low-res program there is. And I could stay in that second bedroom you guys have!

Oh, you don't? Too cramped an apartment?

Sorry.

I'm actually looking at several programs, with fun residencies in the northwest.

I'm kind of wandering here. Perhaps I should start a different thread.

You guys might not like those late night sunn(o))) concerts. Especially at full volume.

Warren Wilson College is really beautiful. This area where I live now is very inspiring. Something about the mountains and the isolation produces amazing art.You know the famed Black Mountain School is nearby, too. At least the remains of it are in a museum there.

So ok. Now that my daughter has decided she simply can not live outside a 50-mile radius of New York and Philly, we do have a spare room.

However you will have to share the upstairs with my other kid and really share when EE's boys are in town. But hey we're all good cooks, we have an awesome grill (with a mountain view from the deck if you look through the trees!) and we'll even accept your music. Tathagata wants to visit, too. And tungtied2u is my neighbor. Maybe I should just open a home for wandering poets. I bet it'd be fun...until the police arrive because you're playing the Japandroids too loud. Again. Not that I'd mind a younger us.

 

[Tzara]

Warren Wilson College is really beautiful. This area where I live now is very inspiring. Something about the mountains and the isolation produces amazing art.You know the famed Black Mountain School is nearby, too. At least the remains of it are in a museum there.

Is there a museum for Black Mountain College? I would really like to see that. HUGELY influential program/place. I mean I'd detour some trip just to see that.

So ok. Now that my daughter has decided she simply can not live outside a 50-mile radius of New York and Philly, we do have a spare room.

However you will have to share the upstairs with my other kid and really share when EE's boys are in town. But hey we're all good cooks, we have an awesome grill (with a mountain view from the deck if you look through the trees!) and we'll even accept your music. Tathagata wants to visit, too. And tungtied2u is my neighbor. Maybe I should just open a home for wandering poets. I bet it'd be fun...until the police arrive because you're playing the Japandroids too loud. Again. Not that I'd mind a younger us.

Can I bring my Strat if I promise to leave my Marshall stack at home?

 

[Angeline]

Is there a museum for Black Mountain College? I would really like to see that. HUGELY influential program/place. I mean I'd detour some trip just to see that.
Can I bring my Strat if I promise to leave my Marshall stack at home?

There is a museum although it's in downtown Asheville. The actual college buildings in Black Mountain are part of a kids' camp now. One of the things that really appealed to me about moving to this part of the world is that we were near it. Sorry to sound Berrigan-obsessed (again) but before he was thought of as being associated with the NY School, he was considered a Black Mountain poet. It was a hugely influential place. It's kind of odd to think of the post-modern art and architecture that came out of these old mountains.

We almost ended up living in the town of Black Mountain, which is about 15 miles from where I am now.

You'd be a welcome guest in my home if you ever did visit the area. I mentioned the Marshall stack to EE and he just laughed. He's a bass player from way back.