CALLING ALL BRAINIACS: A Conundrum

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

My friend STELLA recommended that I read Damon Runyon's stories, and appended her referral with an observation that his style makes poor erotica, if any.

So I read some of his stories, and saw the problem: Damon Runyon wrote like real guys speak. Rude, crude, and lewd, without description. When women writers depict male characters the characters all come across like theyre Richard Chamberlain, whereas most guys talk like Lenny & Squiggy or Dad. "Uh huh, uh huh, jeez thats a toughie, better ask your mother what she thinks."

So here's my question:

If women prefer male characters in books and on tv to talk like Richard Chamberlain, howcome women flee from real men who talk like old Richard?

 

[unregistered]

 

[Etaski]

Not a conundrum due to faulty assumption

Born 1934... Had to look him up. Nice voice in the interivew. He looked to be in his sixties or seventies and behaved like a stage actor. Enunciation is stellar. Is actually homosexual, which does not surprise me.

Are you asking why some women run, or assuming that "all" women run?

Are you asking if "all" women prefer that type of leading man in their fantasies or romance novels?

You should really know better than to speak in absolutes. Human sexuality and attraction runs on a continuum, and you will always find an exception to any trend or majority. It is hardly worth debating.

Personally, no matter a man's appearance, he has to open his mouth and speak to gain my attention. All men that I have actively pursued spoke more like Richard Chamberlain than Beevis and Butthead. The best of those have been extremely intelligent bisexuals, my favorite for being self aware and self confident enough to tell me, and they were much fun in the sack.

So no conundrum here. Some women exist who do not "run" but chase this type, and for that, your implied and generalized conclusion is invalid.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I will post my answer even though I hardly self-identify as a brainiac. (Nerd? Yep! Synonymous? Maybe...)

This seems like another incident of generalizing that all women like the same traits in men. I swoon for the articulate, intelligent men (especially those who look like Dr. Kildare). If a man has poor grammar or speaks neanderthal, I would not even give him a second's consideration regardless of his appearance.

Let me clarify something When I make generalizations I imply, IF YOU HAD TO BET, HOW WOULD YOU BET (fill in the blank) ARE IRL? You cant generalize all women from Miss America

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Born 1934... Had to look him up. Nice voice in the interivew. He looked to be in his sixties or seventies and behaved like a stage actor. Enunciation is stellar. Is actually homosexual, which does not surprise me.

Are you asking why some women run, or assuming that "all" women run?

Are you asking if "all" women prefer that type of leading man in their fantasies or romance novels?

You should really know better than to speak in absolutes. Human sexuality and attraction runs on a continuum, and you will always find an exception to any trend or majority. It is hardly worth debating.

Personally, no matter a man's appearance, he has to open his mouth and speak to gain my attention. All men that I have actively pursued spoke more like Richard Chamberlain than Beevis and Butthead. The best of those have been extremely intelligent bisexuals, my favorite for being self aware and self confident enough to tell me, and they were much fun in the sack.

So no conundrum here. Some women exist who do not "run" but chase this type, and for that, your implied and generalized conclusion is invalid.

I generalize in correlation coefficients.

 

[Aphro]

Who says real women flee from articulate men? I certainly don't. If I can't talk to him, I sure as hell would not want to have any relationship with him. Unless, of course, your relationships consist of nights of rutting and not much else. Eventually you are going to have to sit across the table from each other and have a meal, which is going to be uninspiring if all he can do is grunt and ask you to pass the salt.

Not a brainiac here, but for me sexual desire starts first between the ears then works it's way down.

 

[amofiga]

I'm not a woman, but I've spoken with women about these sorts of things like, "Why to women seem to flock to bastards and leave the nice guys wondering why?" or "Why do women criticize men for gravitating to beautiful women and leave the smart average ones at sitting at home?"

It's not that women like dumb guys any more than men like stupid broads. Yes, as someone said above, if all your looking for are genitals, then maybe each gender will allow themselves the guilty pleasure of a secret quickie to check out the goods. However, most people, men and women want someone with common sense, base intelligence, sensitivity, respect, and consideration.

Please note, none of the above is synonymous with "wimp" or "doormat". Both men and women are attracted to real confidence, not arrogance or bravado or bitichiness, or nastiness. They don't need "book learnin'" especially if it translates to snobishness as to where one went to school. My sister in law was one of the most intelligent, best-read people I knew, and she never went to college. My dad was a voracious reader and very intelligent about anything from world politics to finance to geography and was only trained as an auto mechanic. What most people like is the ability to converse intelligently, the ability to express a coherent thought, the ability to listen and respond with meaning, and the confidence to to express their overall ability, personality, and sexuality in a way that isn't pushy.

As to speaking patterns and technique, it isn't necessary to use flowery language or tightly connected sentences. Train of thought is fine. Sound bites are ok. Common street language can be sexy in the right circumstances from both men and women. Teasing and flirting is great when the time is right but serious discussion is appreciated when it's expected. I think both men and women appreciate the ability of their partner to dress, act, and converse like intelligent ladies and gentlemen when the situation calls for it and still be comfortable with grunting like gutter tramps and animals when the circumstances allow.

I believe that it's unfair to stereotype either men or women as to their apparent tendency to be attracted to stupid bums or dumb tramps based on the possibly "temporary" behavior of a few. I think that in the long run, intelligence, confidence, respect, and caring are appreciated by both genders. Flowery oratory is necessarily expected or even desired, but basic intelligence is.

 

[fgarvb1]

Ah so.

The answers may well be ones that can be overlooked.

LOL ("Bitches be crazy!)

Their minds do not work like ours...no they do not.

They can love high romance but crave low down fucking and many crazy combanations...or none at all.

What some of them find sexy we don't have a prayer of understanding.

Or for that matter why they do some of the things they do or how they do them.

It's like some Fan fiction I read, most female writers could leave out some of the repetitious descriptions of people,events and emotions and decrease the story size by 10-25%...in some case it would actually read better.

At least to most men.

Men sometimes need to expound on the same such things.

I guess I am trying to say stories need to have a target audience or edited to try to please both.

The best sex stories should grow wood on men and get the ladies wet with out boring them.

NOT that easy for some people.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I'm not a woman, but I've spoken with women about these sorts of things like, "Why to women seem to flock to bastards and leave the nice guys wondering why?" or "Why do women criticize men for gravitating to beautiful women and leave the smart average ones at sitting at home?"

It's not that women like dumb guys any more than men like stupid broads. Yes, as someone said above, if all your looking for are genitals, then maybe each gender will allow themselves the guilty pleasure of a secret quickie to check out the goods. However, most people, men and women want someone with common sense, base intelligence, sensitivity, respect, and consideration.

Please note, none of the above is synonymous with "wimp" or "doormat". Both men and women are attracted to real confidence, not arrogance or bravado or bitichiness, or nastiness. They don't need "book learnin'" especially if it translates to snobishness as to where one went to school. My sister in law was one of the most intelligent, best-read people I knew, and she never went to college. My dad was a voracious reader and very intelligent about anything from world politics to finance to geography and was only trained as an auto mechanic. What most people like is the ability to converse intelligently, the ability to express a coherent thought, the ability to listen and respond with meaning, and the confidence to to express their overall ability, personality, and sexuality in a way that isn't pushy.

As to speaking patterns and technique, it isn't necessary to use flowery language or tightly connected sentences. Train of thought is fine. Sound bites are ok. Common street language can be sexy in the right circumstances from both men and women. Teasing and flirting is great when the time is right but serious discussion is appreciated when it's expected. I think both men and women appreciate the ability of their partner to dress, act, and converse like intelligent ladies and gentlemen when the situation calls for it and still be comfortable with grunting like gutter tramps and animals when the circumstances allow.

I believe that it's unfair to stereotype either men or women as to their apparent tendency to be attracted to stupid bums or dumb tramps based on the possibly "temporary" behavior of a few. I think that in the long run, intelligence, confidence, respect, and caring are appreciated by both genders. Flowery oratory is necessarily expected or even desired, but basic intelligence is.

You write well.

Then how do you account for the popularity of curb-hugging, bums?

But you can stereotype people; I interviewed 1000s and 1000s of people over the years, and can label anyone in a few minutes. Just like all of us really know our kids and partners and parents, etc. We get surprised at times, but if you gotta bet you know how to bet.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Ah so.

The answers may well be ones that can be overlooked.

LOL ("Bitches be crazy!)

Their minds do not work like ours...no they do not.

They can love high romance but crave low down fucking and many crazy combanations...or none at all.

What some of them find sexy we don't have a prayer of understanding.

Or for that matter why they do some of the things they do or how they do them.

It's like some Fan fiction I read, most female writers could leave out some of the repetitious descriptions of people,events and emotions and decrease the story size by 10-25%...in some case it would actually read better.

At least to most men.

Men sometimes need to expound on the same such things.

I guess I am trying to say stories need to have a target audience or edited to try to please both.

The best sex stories should grow wood on men and get the ladies wet with out boring them.

NOT that easy for some people.

My real fans are low-average IQ females who like to grunt and grind and take a raincheck on the Rod McKuen poems.

 

[Aphro]

You write well.

Then how do you account for the popularity of curb-hugging, bums?

But you can stereotype people; I interviewed 1000s and 1000s of people over the years, and can label anyone in a few minutes. Just like all of us really know our kids and partners and parents, etc. We get surprised at times, but if you gotta bet you know how to bet.

Label me, JBJ! I simply MUST KNOW!

 

[Etaski]

I generalize in correlation coefficients.

*sigh*

Then let me present to you an idea you perhaps haven't run across: The Chimera.

A mythical beast with the head of a man, body of a lion, tail of a scorpion.

It doesn't really exist, but it contains the strongest part from more than individual cobbled together, even if they are in real life mutually exclusive.

That is what the leading man is in romance novels: a Chimera.

He is the alpha male in body but the beta male in mind and emotion. These are mutually exclusive qualities because life experience coupled with the society and cultural norms understood in context with the particular romance story lead a real person to become more one than the other as the pecking order is determined by a huge number of factors.

I can say the same for the "Lara Croft" type of idea popular in action game and movies aimed at men: A Chimera.

The endurance, sexuality, and love of violence, competition, and adventure (AND GUNS! DON'T FORGET THE GUNS!) of a man, but the tits of a woman.

You can't explain one with the other. They are apple and oranges. Not a conundrum, but trying to force a Chimera into being real.

This is also what young women are doing when they expect their boyfriend to act like Edward.

Extrapolating from there, I can conclude that the women you're talking about are thinking about a Chimera, and often get sorely disappointed later on after they've lived a little.

 

[talikat]

My friend STELLA recommended that I read Damon Runyon's stories, and appended her referral with an observation that his style makes poor erotica, if any.

So I read some of his stories, and saw the problem: Damon Runyon wrote like real guys speak. Rude, crude, and lewd, without description. When women writers depict male characters the characters all come across like theyre Richard Chamberlain, whereas most guys talk like Lenny & Squiggy or Dad. "Uh huh, uh huh, jeez thats a toughie, better ask your mother what she thinks."

So here's my question:

If women prefer male characters in books and on tv to talk like Richard Chamberlain, howcome women flee from real men who talk like old Richard?

I would'nt say that I flee from men who talk like Richard but if I don't have any common ground with them and don't feel that I could keep them interested, I feel intimidated and don't usually seek out relationships with them. I do, however, admire the hell out of intelligent well spoken men.

Brains are sexy and I wish I had some.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

*sigh*

Then let me present to you an idea you perhaps haven't run across: The Chimera.

A mythical beast with the head of a man, body of a lion, tail of a scorpion.

It doesn't really exist, but it contains the strongest part from more than individual cobbled together, even if they are in real life mutually exclusive.

That is what the leading man is in romance novels: a Chimera.

He is the alpha male in body but the beta male in mind and emotion. These are mutually exclusive qualities because life experience coupled with the society and cultural norms understood in context with the particular romance story lead a real person to become more one than the other as the pecking order is determined by a huge number of factors.

I can say the same for the "Lara Croft" type of idea popular in action game and movies aimed at men: A Chimera.

The endurance, sexuality, and love of violence, competition, and adventure (AND GUNS! DON'T FORGET THE GUNS!) of a man, but the tits of a woman.

You can't explain one with the other. They are apple and oranges. Not a conundrum, but trying to force a Chimera into being real.

This is also what young women are doing when they expect their boyfriend to act like Edward.

Extrapolating from there, I can conclude that the women you're talking about are thinking about a Chimera, and often get sorely disappointed later on after they've lived a little.

All I know is what I observe, for the meaning of anything is what you get or end up with. I use conundrum in its 'difficult question' definition.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I would'nt say that I flee from men who talk like Richard but if I don't have any common ground with them and don't feel that I could keep them interested, I feel intimidated and don't usually seek out relationships with them. I do, however, admire the hell out of intelligent well spoken men.

Brains are sexy and I wish I had some.

What makes you think you have no brains? You strike me as pretty smart.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Label me, JBJ! I simply MUST KNOW!

Tough one!

Lessee....youre 75 years old, 4 feet tall, male...definitely a male, and collect all the old Readers Digest Condensed Novels. As a boy you took your mom's Sears & Roebuck catalog out behind the barn and spanked your monkey looking at the bra models.

 

[Aphro]

Tough one!

Lessee....youre 75 years old, 4 feet tall, male...definitely a male, and collect all the old Readers Digest Condensed Novels. As a boy you took your mom's Sears & Roebuck catalog out behind the barn and spanked your monkey looking at the bra models.

Wow. Yeah, you're good. But it wasn't Reader's Digest, it was National Geographic.

I so thought you would be fooled.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Wow. Yeah, you're good. But it wasn't Reader's Digest, it was National Geographic.

I so thought you would be fooled.

I forgot to add that broiled liver is your favorite food.

Most people dont know that the Martin Short character, Ed Grimley, is based on you.

 

[bailadora]

So here's my question:

If women prefer male characters in books and on tv to talk like Richard Chamberlain, howcome women flee from real men who talk like old Richard?

I don't know why some women are like this. It truly boggles my mind. I've a relative who has the worst taste in men. Most of them have treated her like shit and she's never been happy. Now, she's in a relationship with a man who is everything she says she's ever wanted. He's the perfect man for her - on paper. She still isn't happy.

I just don't get it. I think it's more a function of her, than anything else.

 

[Aphro]

I just don't get it. I think it's more a function of her, than anything else.

I sometimes wonder if some women feel like they don't deserve to be treated well by a man. It certainly seems that way. Either that, or the allure of changing a "bad boy" and being the one who was able to bring about the magical transformation...which obviously never works, but they keep trying.

(Take this as a grain of salt, us 75 year old broiled liver lovers don't know much).

 

[amofiga]

<<< Then how do you account for the popularity of curb-hugging, bums? >>>

I've been on this planet for a lot of years. Yes, I've seen women who "love" curb hugging bums. My cousin's daughter allowed herself to be controlled by such a bum and bear his child before she eventually accepted the truth and came home with baby in arms.

For whatever reason, there is a percentage of women (men too) that have low self esteem. I suppose there are a variety of reasons ranging from genetic make-up to upbringing. I'm not a psychologist. I don't know. I've known several very attractive, well educated women who for some unknown reason thought they were worthless. Perhaps one or both parents or some teacher in kindergarten told them that. But, they tied their self-worth to people that preyed on their limited view of themselves. They were told (and eventually believed) that they weren't worth crap to anybody except the "curb hugging bum" who loved them. So they believe what they're told. Some cruel and manipulative people, men as well as women, seem to have that evil power and thrive on it.

There was a case recently in my life of a beautiful intelligent young woman who killed herself because the bum she wanted so much to love her decided to leave her. He treated her like crap, found fault with everything she did, and somehow convinced her that she was nothing without him. Who knows why? I know her parents, and on the surface at least, they seem like normal loving people. Their daughter could have truly had any man she wanted. She could have had them lined up outside her door, but she wanted this bum. The thing is, she knew intellectually that he was a bum. But, I suppose she wanted to "save him", change him, make him see that he could be better. She so much wanted to convince him that she was the one for him. Then, because he dumped her, she like felt she wasn't even worth a bum, so she killed herself. She was only in her 20's.

So what makes some women love "curb hugging bums"? Who the hell knows, but fortunately it's probably a small percentage of women. And, it's not only women. There are men who are also like this for whatever strange reason and will let some "curb hugging bitch" steal the life out of him. Humans are strange critters.

 

[fire_breeze]

Personally, if I cannot have an intelligent conversation with the person, I'm cold. Completely, thoroughly, utterly cold - I don't care if he's the most beautiful man in the world, if he's not articulate, then nothing. And before I get attacked, I don't need flowery prose - in fact, I'd rather he be true to himself and express himself intelligently. On the other hand, I can tell straight off the bat if a man is using words he's not comfortable with and is posturing, trying to pass himself off as someone else, and that's incredibly irritating.

Except for Vin Diesel, of course. There's always an exception to every rule.

I don't know why some women are like this. It truly boggles my mind. I've a relative who has the worst taste in men. Most of them have treated her like shit and she's never been happy. Now, she's in a relationship with a man who is everything she says she's ever wanted. He's the perfect man for her - on paper. She still isn't happy.

I just don't get it. I think it's more a function of her, than anything else.

<<< Then how do you account for the popularity of curb-hugging, bums? >>>

I've been on this planet for a lot of years. Yes, I've seen women who "love" curb hugging bums. My cousin's daughter allowed herself to be controlled by such a bum and bear his child before she eventually accepted the truth and came home with baby in arms.

For whatever reason, there is a percentage of women (men too) that have low self esteem. I suppose there are a variety of reasons ranging from genetic make-up to upbringing. I'm not a psychologist. I don't know. I've known several very attractive, well educated women who for some unknown reason thought they were worthless. Perhaps one or both parents or some teacher in kindergarten told them that. But, they tied their self-worth to people that preyed on their limited view of themselves. They were told (and eventually believed) that they weren't worth crap to anybody except the "curb hugging bum" who loved them. So they believe what they're told. Some cruel and manipulative people, men as well as women, seem to have that evil power and thrive on it.

There was a case recently in my life of a beautiful intelligent young woman who killed herself because the bum she wanted so much to love her decided to leave her. He treated her like crap, found fault with everything she did, and somehow convinced her that she was nothing without him. Who knows why? I know her parents, and on the surface at least, they seem like normal loving people. Their daughter could have truly had any man she wanted. She could have had them lined up outside her door, but she wanted this bum. The thing is, she knew intellectually that he was a bum. But, I suppose she wanted to "save him", change him, make him see that he could be better. She so much wanted to convince him that she was the one for him. Then, because he dumped her, she like felt she wasn't even worth a bum, so she killed herself. She was only in her 20's.

So what makes some women love "curb hugging bums"? Who the hell knows, but fortunately it's probably a small percentage of women. And, it's not only women. There are men who are also like this for whatever strange reason and will let some "curb hugging bitch" steal the life out of him. Humans are strange critters.

Because often times, they feel like they don't deserve better - they are convinced that they don't deserve better. It's sad, but it's true. It takes patience and a lot of determination to convince you otherwise. You know, rationally, that you deserve better, but when all you seem to attract is jerks, well... it's a vicious cycle. And smart people can be complete douchebags as well. I was only able to break it with my all because I did everything opposite of what I did before and he still treats me with the same respect the day we met (and yes, he is a very alpha male, so not all of them are asshats).

Fear and self-deprication is NOT rational and any intelligent woman knows, rationally, that it's stupid. But you cannot rationalise this, you can only change it.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

There are plenty of theories about couple pairing, but I think it boils down to whomever feeds are greatest need gets the call. And our need is the end result of chance, dum luck, and important events.

I can walk thru the mall and pick out the worst women in the world for me, using nothing more than the feeling I get, so I know who to keep away from, cuz theyre guaranteed to make me sick. Theyre like human crack.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Personally, if I cannot have an intelligent conversation with the person, I'm cold. Completely, thoroughly, utterly cold - I don't care if he's the most beautiful man in the world, if he's not articulate, then nothing. And before I get attacked, I don't need flowery prose - in fact, I'd rather he be true to himself and express himself intelligently. On the other hand, I can tell straight off the bat if a man is using words he's not comfortable with and is posturing, trying to pass himself off as someone else, and that's incredibly irritating.

Except for Vin Diesel, of course. There's always an exception to every rule.





Because often times, they feel like they don't deserve better - they are convinced that they don't deserve better. It's sad, but it's true. It takes patience and a lot of determination to convince you otherwise. You know, rationally, that you deserve better, but when all you seem to attract is jerks, well... it's a vicious cycle. And smart people can be complete douchebags as well. I was only able to break it with my all because I did everything opposite of what I did before (and yes, he is a very alpha male, so not all of them are asshats).

Fear and self-deprication is NOT rational and any intelligent woman knows, rationally, that it's stupid. But you cannot rationalise this, you can only change it.

I'm reading a how to write book by John O'Hara, and he confirms what you post about. The rapport must be there, and you cant fake it IRL or writing about it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Damon Runyon does not talk like Squiggy and Lenny. He tells us his stories in a mimicry of the voices of the people he writes about.

Squiggy and Lenny were not self aware, (and neither are many of Runyons characters) they held a very limited world view that did not include other people's needs or cares. (and neither do many of Runyon's characters.)

We often don't care at all about Runyon's characters-- nor can we care much about Squiggy and Lenny. We do get to know and care about about Runyon's main character, which is the guy that's telling us the stories in the first place. That guy is self-aware, compassionate, observational, acute, and sometimes uplifting.

I will say that your observation that men often are lewd without being descriptive is a very good one. It's not so true any longer, what with the internet and stuff.

BTW, Have you ever noticed that the men who really detest women-- and the women who really hate men, like totally hate them-- are heterosexual? That's so sad.