Online Fetish Accountability

[sr71plt]

I don't think the New York Cannibal case has been discussed on the AH yet. This guy has now been convicted of projecting to do in reality what he discussed doing in fetish chat rooms (http://my.earthlink.net/article/us?guid=20130312/53c354df-6914-4e40-aeeb-63c569e1f5c9). This could be connect to what people write stories about online on illegal fetishes (and sell as e-books), couldn't it? Or do you think it couldn't? Nobody a little apprehensive?

 

[soflabbwlvr]

Its an interesting case because it goes to the issue of what is a conspiracy and what is a mere fantasy. He was found guilty of not merely talking about committing heinous crimes, but actually taking steps to complete his plans. The fact that it involved a sexual fetish (?) makes the case sexy, sort of, but its beside the point. It wouldn't be any different than making plans to invade the White House. Merely making a movie about it isn't illegal, but enlisting the aid of others and buying supplies takes it to another level.

 

[oggbashan]

This case has UK links as well. Apparently a man from Canterbury sent emails suggesting that he'd like to cut up, cook and eat a young woman who works in a nearby Chinese Restaurant.

She has spoken to the local press stating that she is now afraid to go out alone after pictures of her were linked to the cannibalism case.

The Canterbury man is being questioned by local police but there is no suggestion that he is guilty of anything except fantasising about 'eating' her.

It is slightly worrying but the fantasy was directed at a real, named and pictured individual. I don't think many of us would go that far.

 

[PennLady]

It does make me a little apprehensive, but it's very fuzzy. I certainly don't think people should be prosecuted just for their thoughts, icky though they may be. Where it gets fuzzy is the fact that this guy looked things up, like how to knock people out with chloroform. I'm not saying that should get him arrested, either. But were those concrete steps, as the prosecution said? Or just another step in fantasizing, using the tools he had access to?

I don't know. Troubling on a few levels.

 

[sr71plt]

I haven't read much on this, but no actual steps were cited in anything I have read. Someone have a citation on actual steps the New York Cannibal took toward fulfilling anything he fantasized about?

 

[sr71plt]

It does make me a little apprehensive, but it's very fuzzy. I certainly don't think people should be prosecuted just for their thoughts, icky though they may be. Where it gets fuzzy is the fact that this guy looked things up, like how to knock people out with chloroform. I'm not saying that should get him arrested, either. But were those concrete steps, as the prosecution said? Or just another step in fantasizing, using the tools he had access to?

I don't know. Troubling on a few levels.

We don't look up the "how to" when we write stories?

As noted, I'd like to see what the concrete steps were beyond the same sort of research you'd do to be able to fantasize and/or write about it.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

This is the part that got him in trouble:

They said the New York City police officer looked up potential targets on a restricted law enforcement database; searched the Internet for how to knock someone out with chloroform and where to get torture devices and other tools; and showed up on a woman's block after striking an agreement to kidnap her for $5,000 for a New Jersey man who wanted to rape and kill her. That man was also arrested and is awaiting trial.

 

[PennLady]

We don't look up the "how to" when we write stories?

As noted, I'd like to see what the concrete steps were beyond the same sort of research you'd do to be able to fantasize and/or write about it.

I'm sure we do (although I haven't looked up that). I'm not saying we shouldn't. I don't know -- I hate the idea of thought policing. You get into "Minority Report" territory. I don't think that if someone dreams up a big murder scene, they should be arrested; otherwise the jails would be full of mystery writers.

But as sofflabbwlvr points out, there were some things the man did that were troubling in their own right. If any of those things were against the law, he should be prosecuted on those charges, but no thought issues should come into it. It doesn't matter why he accessed a restricted database to me; if he did, and it's illegal and he didn't have permission, then he should be charged on those grounds.

 

[Saxon_Hart]

I don't think the New York Cannibal case has been discussed on the AH yet. This guy has now been convicted of projecting to do in reality what he discussed doing in fetish chat rooms (http://my.earthlink.net/article/us?guid=20130312/53c354df-6914-4e40-aeeb-63c569e1f5c9). This could be connect to what people write stories about online on illegal fetishes (and sell as e-books), couldn't it? Or do you think it couldn't? Nobody a little apprehensive?

I think there are two reasons he is being prosecuted. One; he's a cop. Cops are usually held to a different set of standards than the rest of us. Case in point, I know of two cops, a detective and a highway patrolman who were punished due to these higher standards. The detective was fired and faced possible charges because his he and his wife posted nude pix of her in swinger magazines and online. She was also prosecuted, but reached a plea bargain. I never heard his outcome.
The patrolman was falsely accused of molesting his 14 year old daughter. While he was proven innocent of the crime, he was still fired and barred from law enforcement. Right or wrong I think that is part of why this guy is getting it.
Reason two; The article says he was taking steps to carry out his fantasy.
We here are usually not going to be held accountable for what we write, because of artists license. I have had my stories read by the FBI (Long story...) and while the guy who read it said he didn't agree with the subject matter there is no law prohibiting what you write.
Just like a singer who sings about crimes, we who might write about crime are exercising our right to free expression.

 

[sr71plt]

Thanks, soflabbwlvr, for the citation putting the overt actions into context. The two outlying points (using the database to target individuals and the actual targeting of a woman) are good evidene of true intent. The research isn't--it's something that either a writer or some role playing a fantasy on the Internet would do just as part of that writing/fantasy.

And if this research is being offered (and accepted) as evidence, this is the area that I think writers here need to worry about. Your research can, indeed, be followed on the Internet and documented.

 

[slyc_willie]

And if this research is being offered (and accepted) as evidence, this is the area that I think writers here need to worry about. Your research can, indeed, be followed on the Internet and documented.

Seeing as how I write erotica, sci-fi, and horror fiction, and that I'm a student and a father, I wonder what the FBI think of me Googling for poisons, human anatomy, girl scout uniforms, eBay censorship (for a class) and airfare to Mexico all in one day . . . .

 

[Safe_Bet]

Seeing as how I write erotica, sci-fi, and horror fiction, and that I'm a student and a father, I wonder what the FBI think of me Googling for poisons, human anatomy, girl scout uniforms, eBay censorship (for a class) and airfare to Mexico all in one day . . . .

It depends... what size was the girl scout uniform you looked at? Men's 38 regular???

 

[sr71plt]

Seeing as how I write erotica, sci-fi, and horror fiction, and that I'm a student and a father, I wonder what the FBI think of me Googling for poisons, human anatomy, girl scout uniforms, eBay censorship (for a class) and airfare to Mexico all in one day . . . .

I've been through that a couple of times with the authorities. Once was a check on using government computers to research Middle East terrorism. (I was analyzing Middle East terrorism for the government at the time). Later for being on al-Qaida Web sites. (I was copyediting mainstream books on Middle East terrorism--and fact checking).

 

[lovecraft68]

I don't think the New York Cannibal case has been discussed on the AH yet. This guy has now been convicted of projecting to do in reality what he discussed doing in fetish chat rooms (http://my.earthlink.net/article/us?guid=20130312/53c354df-6914-4e40-aeeb-63c569e1f5c9). This could be connect to what people write stories about online on illegal fetishes (and sell as e-books), couldn't it? Or do you think it couldn't? Nobody a little apprehensive?

This is a tough one.

I mean think about the hardcore rape role plays played out here or via IM.

MY wife once had a guy that she Im's with want her to role play as a 14 year old. she wouldn't do it, but I am sure he found some women that would.

Never mind the endless incest role plays that go on.

My first reaction is this is fantasy and not real, its usually between people who would never meet are looking to explore things they couldn't "in person" and even beyond that how many people have just gotten pissed off in real life and said something like "I'd like to fucking kill him?"

Its hard to imagine someone jailed over "make believe" or something just stated via the web.

I think the issue here was that he was a cop and because of that it may be perceived he would be better equipped to do and get away with these acts.

Also I think the cannibal angle is a bit extreme, that is not a very common fetish in fact I really don't think of it as one at all, never mind a sexual one I think the guy needs help, but to be convicted?

So, yes, to answer your question it does give one pause to think. Especially when it seems like when in doubt or lack of something else to do or say the politicians always target pornography of any kind so this can get that rolling again as well.

I may be wrong here, but I feel it also challenges freedom of speech.

But now even as I type this I am thinking of the "plants" that are on the net posing as 13 year old girls and trying to snare pedophiles. They charge them with things they "say" they want to do and no one is concerned there.

as I said at the beginning: Tough One.

 

[TE999]

This case has UK links as well. Apparently a man from Canterbury sent emails suggesting that he'd like to cut up, cook and eat a young woman who works in a nearby Chinese Restaurant.

That would make him a potential serial killer since everyone knows that once you eat Chinese, an hour later you're hungry again.

 

[BuckyDuckman]

Takes the concept of "pre-meditated" to an entirely new level.

 

[oggbashan]

That would make him a potential serial killer since everyone knows that once you eat Chinese, an hour later you're hungry again.

He was also in frequent contact with the man convicted in New York. He may still face prosecution for stalking the woman in real life.

 

[PennLady]

A sort of recap of events at Slate.com:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...bal_cop_has_been_convicted_of_a_crime_he.html

 

[soflabbwlvr]

A sort of recap of events at Slate.com:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...bal_cop_has_been_convicted_of_a_crime_he.html

Based on this account of the trial, it is difficult to see how the case resulted in a conviction. The acts which were argued by the prosecution to constitute steps toward accomplishing the crime don't seem to match the details of the conspiracy. In other words, the positive actions were not steps toward accomplishing the crime pursuant to the plan. But bear in mind, this only one person's summary of many days of trial. It is always a difficult thing to comment on a trial without accessing all of the evidence the jury was permitted to see and hear.

In any event, there will be an appeal, and I would place odds at 50/50 that the conviction is overturned. If this account is accurate, I'm not sure that there was enough evidence to submit the case to the jury.

 

[PennLady]

Based on this account of the trial, it is difficult to see how the case resulted in a conviction. The acts which were argued by the prosecution to constitute steps toward accomplishing the crime don't seem to match the details of the conspiracy. In other words, the positive actions were not steps toward accomplishing the crime pursuant to the plan. But bear in mind, this only one person's summary of many days of trial. It is always a difficult thing to comment on a trial without accessing all of the evidence the jury was permitted to see and hear.

In any event, there will be an appeal, and I would place odds at 50/50 that the conviction is overturned. If this account is accurate, I'm not sure that there was enough evidence to submit the case to the jury.

You're right, it's only one article and I just posted it for reading. I don't know that I agree with it, but I don't know that I agree with other things as well. I looked for other articles similar to this one but admit I didn't look too hard. I'd be curious to see other takes.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

You're right, it's only one article and I just posted it for reading. I don't know that I agree with it, but I don't know that I agree with other things as well. I looked for other articles similar to this one but admit I didn't look too hard. I'd be curious to see other takes.

The important points here are, No. 1, that the cooking and eating part that everyone likes to talk about is not the important part of this case. Its the other stuff that constitutes the crime. And No. 2, this situation originated from chat room discussions. People need to realize that those are accessible after the chat window is closed.