I had it pointed out to me

[JackLuis]

-

As far as the mental health issue goes, I will not be convinced that it isn't the biggest issue here.

^^^ Perhaps we should look at Mental Health as a "Homeland Defense" issue? Perhaps we could get a "War on Crazy Bastards" foreign and domestic?

 

[sr71plt]

Not even giving it a more than a day's separation anymore:

http://nation.time.com/2012/12/16/man-fires-some-50-shots-at-calif-mall-parking-lot/

Merry Christmas all you gunslingers out there. Any chance any of you will wake up?

 

[lovecraft68]

I love when the guy who loves to say others paint with a broad brush just keeps doing it himself.

 

[sr71plt]

This message is hidden because lovecraft68 is on your ignore list.

 

[NekoParks]

Long Island Train Shooting in 1993

One of the points made by the witnesses of the Long Island train shootings in 1993 was the fact that less ammo would have given people time to jump the shooter when he had to reload. Unless a person is trained in the use of deadly force, the use of a gun in time of high stress with adrenaline pumping through your system would be dicey at best. Most people would hesitate to fire into a crowd for fear of hitting a bystander. Unfortunately, the psychological advantage of having a huge magazine clip is what gives some nutcases the confidence to attack a group of people. Most law enforced professionals will tell you that a cell phone and a plan to save yourself are better defense than having a gun. The other things that are always stressed to women are to not let yourself be taken a secondary crime scene. By the way, the Second Amendment was never about individual gun ownership, it was about allowing STATES to maintain a standing militia. The right to free assembly in the First Amendment is being violated by current laws passed by congress--see Free Speech Zones. That is the amendment that every American should be angry about--not the Second Amendment.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Amendment I
The Constitution of the United States of America
September 17, 1787

 

[sr71plt]

One small problem with the automatic weapons deal in this case. The semiautomatic ar-15 type rifle he had was in the trunk of his car, not in the school. All the shooting as far as i have heard was with the two pistols he had on him.

From AP: "On Saturday, Chief Medical Examiner Dr. H. Wayne Carver said all the victims at the school were shot with a rifle, at least some of them up close, and all of them were apparently shot more than once."

There was all sorts of inaccurate media reporting on this, including fingering the wrong Lanza as the killer and locating the mother as a substitute teacher at the school when she didn't work for the school and was killed at home. The American people have an insatiable need to know everything "right now," even if it's incorrect.

One thing is for sure about Mrs. Lanza's right to bear arms, though--it got her murdered with her own guns.

 

[Bramblethorn]

2)The Lanza family had significant means, Nancy Lanza lived in an expensive house, didn't work, and apparently didn't lack money and her ex husband was a very high level executive with GE, the type that makes millions a year, so they weren't waiting for public health beds, they had the means to try and get hi m treated but as far as anyone knows, they never did, there is no sign he was every in treatment, on medications, or the like.

The thing is, they had the means to get him treatment and didn't, something a lot of parents with troubled kids don't have the luxury for, so she was absolutely stupid on 2 counts.

I'm reluctant to judge her on that - or indeed her husband - without knowing more of the story. There are reasons why some people don't seek treatment for mental illness even when money isn't an issue.

For one, it's heavily stigmatised, both in the USA and .au. This thread is a prime example: everybody's talking about how we need to protect ourselves from the crazies, but in fact mentally-ill people are far more likely to be victims of violence - about 10x. Once you get tagged as a crazy, good luck trying to find a normal job.

(And if you treat "crazies" as a subject of derision, congratulations, you've just made yourself part of the problem. For all you know, somebody with mental issues is listening to you and deciding, yep, safer to keep it hidden and try to work it out in quiet, instead of seeking help.)

It's also possible that she tried and he just wasn't interested in cooperating. If a twenty-year-old guy doesn't want to do something, about the only leverage his parents have is threatening to kick him out of home - and that's unlikely to help a mental-health situation, and could easily exacerbate it. For all we know, that could be what happened.

 

[sr71plt]

By the way, the Second Amendment was never about individual gun ownership, it was about allowing STATES to maintain a standing militia. The right to free assembly in the First Amendment is being violated by current laws passed by congress--see Free Speech Zones. That is the amendment that every American should be angry about--not the Second Amendment.

I think we can be angry about these nuts bringing up the Second Amendment too, because, as you note, anyone who can actually read and understand what the Second Amendment actually says, knows it's about the standing militia--the early form of what is now the National Guard--not individual citizens who aren't in the National Guard.

 

[Bramblethorn]

^^^ Perhaps we should look at Mental Health as a "Homeland Defense" issue? Perhaps we could get a "War on Crazy Bastards" foreign and domestic?

And this right here is an example of what I'm talking about. You think ANYBODY with mental health issues is going to stand up and paint a target on themselves when folk are talking like that about them?

We don't even know that the shooter had any sort of diagnosable psychiatric condition. It sure would be comforting to think that no "normal" person would go shoot up a school, but history tells us that "normal" people can do some pretty horrible things.

 

[NekoParks]

Exactly

I think we can be angry about these nuts bringing up the Second Amendment too, because, as you note, anyone who can actually read and understand what the Second Amendment actually says, knows it's about the standing militia--the early form of what is now the National Guard--not individual citizens who aren't in the National Guard.

My Advanced Placement Civics teacher had us research the basis for each admendment. I am surprised that many people do not know that basis for each admendment. I know myself. I would not be able to shoot someone, but I am capable of taking evasive action. I have had a few situations in my life in which I have been able to stay calm under extreme stress. It's an odd experience but time seems to stretch or something. After the emergency is over I have had a sensation of every one moving and speaking too slowly. Very strange.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I think we can be angry about these nuts bringing up the Second Amendment too, because, as you note, anyone who can actually read and understand what the Second Amendment actually says, knows it's about the standing militia--the early form of what is now the National Guard--not individual citizens who aren't in the National Guard.

However, the Supreme Court ruled in DC v. Heller that the 2nd Amendment provided an individual right to bear arms regardless of any specific militia membership. IMHO it's a bullshit decision (and four of nine justices felt the same way) but that's the way it was ruled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller

 

[lovecraft68]

As for the shooters mental state I'm catching myself falling into the concept that a lot of people are and that is he has to be sick.

Know what? Maybe he isn't seems like the family had money(which does not mean he didn't have problems, but means he did not exactly have a tough life) and on the surface nothing to point to this.

So what is it then?

How about plain old fashioned human evil?

No person with a shred of good in them could do that to a bunch of kids.

It reminds me of Dahmer who pretty much came out and said that he had a good life, he was just for lack of a better word evil.

 

[Bramblethorn]

While I agree with you, please, please use the right terminology, these were not automatic weapons, they are semi automatic and there is a world of difference.

Yes and no. There's not a huge design difference between semi- and full-auto weapons: once you have the self-loading part implemented, the self-firing bit is relatively trivial, and many semi-autos are simple modifications of full-auto weapons.

And in scenarios like this, a semi-auto is just as deadly - if anything, maybe more so, since the shooter is less likely to run out of ammo in a hurry. But it's always good to get the terminology right.

(Just to confuse people, an "automatic pistol" is usually a semi-auto.)

 

[NekoParks]

And this right here is an example of what I'm talking about. You think ANYBODY with mental health issues is going to stand up and paint a target on themselves when folk are talking like that about them?

We don't even know that the shooter had any sort of diagnosable psychiatric condition. It sure would be comforting to think that no "normal" person would go shoot up a school, but history tells us that "normal" people can do some pretty horrible things.

The statistics show that people with mental illness are more likely to be a victim of crime than a perpetuator of a crime.

I was raised in a house with guns. My father and mother both owned guns and were excellent shots. My parents taught me about gun safety. I have never owned a gun myself, and I don't enjoy firing guns. I don't understand the adrenline rush that comes from firing a gun. Then, again I don't understand gambling either. I think that Americans need to take a deep breath and realize that this is a dangerous world; a person cannot live their lives in fear. There is nothing wrong with experiencing fear, just don't let it define your thoughts and character.

 

[Bramblethorn]

As for the shooters mental state I'm catching myself falling into the concept that a lot of people are and that is he has to be sick.

If we're talking "moral sickness", I agree. But moral sickness doesn't necessarily translate to something that a psychiatrist can reliably diagnose.

 

[NekoParks]

However, the Supreme Court ruled in DC v. Heller that the 2nd Amendment provided an individual right to bear arms regardless of any specific militia membership. IMHO it's a bullshit decision (and four of nine justices felt the same way) but that's the way it was ruled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller

True, but this is not the first time that the Supreme Court has ruled incorrectly. Look at Citizens United, Bush v. Gore, Dredd Scott v. Sanford, and so on.

 

[lovecraft68]

If we're talking "moral sickness", I agree. But moral sickness doesn't necessarily translate to something that a psychiatrist can reliably diagnose.

You're right, it boils down to just plain "bad"

But obviously there was something that raised flags because he was denied permission to obtain a gun.

Although not a mental illness, evil can be picked up on there was something off about the guy, but sadly, you don;t know what someone is really capable of until its too late.

 

[NekoParks]

If we're talking "moral sickness", I agree. But moral sickness doesn't necessarily translate to something that a psychiatrist can reliably diagnose.

One of the problems that people have in this discussion of mental illness is the psychiatric definitions versus the legal definitions of sanity. Sadists and psychopaths/sociopaths are very sane people, but most people have trouble fathoming such cruelty and lack of empathy.

 

[NekoParks]

ATF determined that he had not been seeking a gun

You're right, it boils down to just plain "bad"

But obviously there was something that raised flags because he was denied permission to obtain a gun.

Although not a mental illness, evil can be picked up on there was something off about the guy, but sadly, you don;t know what someone is really capable of until its too late.

You are quoting inaccurate information. There is no evidence that he was trying to buy a gun. ATF reviewed many hours of surveillance tape and found nothing. There are too many rumors and misinformation being reported with this story. Even after the investigation is finished and reported, most people will not be able to understand WHY this happened. It will be difficult to develop a prototype of these shooters since they are outliers—thank goodness.

By the way, taking way everyone's guns is not going to solve this problem. As a law abidding gun owner, you will find your gun ownership will be unaffected.

 

[sr71plt]

By the way, taking way everyone's guns is not going to solve this problem. As a law abidding gun owner, you will find your gun ownership will be unaffected.

Actually, by Lovecraft68's own admission, he's been jailed for violence, and his answer to just about anything even in Lit. discussions is belligerence and advocating violence. So, A, by his own admission, he's not law-abidding--he's been in jail--and B, by his own behavior, he obviously is one of the last people who should be permitted to have a gun. Sane gun control laws would deny ownership to anyone convicted of a crime of violence.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

From AP: "On Saturday, Chief Medical Examiner Dr. H. Wayne Carver said all the victims at the school were shot with a rifle, at least some of them up close, and all of them were apparently shot more than once."

There was all sorts of inaccurate media reporting on this, including fingering the wrong Lanza as the killer and locating the mother as a substitute teacher at the school when she didn't work for the school and was killed at home. The American people have an insatiable need to know everything "right now," even if it's incorrect.

One thing is for sure about Mrs. Lanza's right to bear arms, though--it got her murdered with her own guns.

As is so often the case in these matters, the initial reports are highly inaccurate, yet they often form the basis for what is subsequently discussed. The latest reports are chilling: Washington Post

In all, 20 year-0ld Adam Lanza had hundreds of bullets with him when he shot out a pane of glass and entered Sandy Hook elementary school at 9:30 a.m. Friday. Police said that Lanza had used one gun--a “Bushmaster” brand rifle, whose design can be traced the M-16 weapon developed for U.S. troops in Vietnam--to kill 20 children and six adults inside.

They said that Lanza had a number of 30-round magazines for this rifle. He also brought magazines for two other guns, pistols made by Sig Sauer and Glock, police said. But Lanza apparently fired just one of those guns at the school, shooting himself in the head. Police found him dead.

 

[lovecraft68]

Yes "Lovecraft" has been to jail. 24 years ago. And was it for an act of violence? Yes it was. I broke a half dozen bones in my sister's rapists body. No gun involved.

Now ten years after that I had my record expunged (at a pretty high cost, court is not cheap) I have not so much as had a driving violation in 20 years and own all of my guns legally.

What I also own is a black belt in Kenpo and a Red belt in Tai Kwon do. Got some Ju Jitsu training in there as well.

My guns are for collecting and competition. I can defend myself in other ways if need be.

Perhaps someone should make Martial arts illegal as well, after all it does teach you to be able to kill someone if you ever have to.

I would also like to pose a question here.

When you are "ignoring someone" shouldn't it mean they should not have your name on their lips in almost every one of their damn posts?

Or is that just me?

 

[NekoParks]

“Sane gun control laws would deny ownership to anyone convicted of a crime of violence."

As Hamlet would say, that is the rub....people that see themselves as above the law or just more special or entitled than the rest of us are the problem-- and no, I do not trust them or their judgment at all.

Whether or not this applies to anyone posting on this board is hard to determine. Some people just sound angrier than they really are in person.

 

[PennLady]

Yes "Lovecraft" has been to jail. 24 years ago. And was it for an act of violence? Yes it was. I broke a half dozen bones in my sister's rapists body. No gun involved.

Interesting, b/c you told a different story about this not too long ago in a thread.

 

[mikey2much]

Killing kids is not new

This guy in this story is as bad as any that I have ever heard of. Man talk about evil and it was over taxes. He was as nutty then as the tea party is about taxes today.Here is the link, it is worth reading.

http://hyphenbird.hubpages.com/hub/...School-Americas-First-School-Massacre-in-1927