Charity has use for 50 Shades

[sr71plt]

Well, on this forum, I think it's from the "you are stealing the money from what I (think) I write better" folks.

We get this from the writing crowd on any and all new fads in books that come out. (And, no, I haven't read them and don't intend to.)

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'm not entirely on board with the "50 Shades" backlash - I get the impression some of it comes from people who are horrified by the idea of women liking porn.

That said, BDSMers don't always have the option of simply ignoring a badly-written book about BDSM. They may well "know better" themselves (I certainly hope they do!) but they still have to deal with other people's misconceptions.

A few years back I needed to see a therapist about matters relating to my love life. Some of the unconventional aspects came up, and I discovered that she was carrying around a whole heap of assumptions about that stuff: "don't you think this is a symptom of something wrong with you? No, really? Well, let's talk about it some more instead of dealing with the issues you actually needed to address."

Whether it's "you're only gay because you didn't get the right role models as a kid", or "you're only poly because of deep-seated insecurities about relationships", or "you only do BDSM because you've been traumatised", the whole "we can cure you of that" response is REALLY unhelpful, especially when it's coming from friends/family/professionals. It's not that easy to ignore when it hits you at a vulnerable moment.

which is a damn shame, and something I've dealt with for fifty years and always figured that's the way that particular cookie crumbles. Expect other people to understand those things, what?

And yes i wish to hell and back that james had not paraded her ignorance around that way-- but then, she had De Sade and Masoch et al-- the big tradition of non-con BDSm novels-- as role models.

 

[lovecraft68]

which is a damn shame, and something I've dealt with for fifty years and always figured that's the way that particular cookie crumbles. Expect other people to understand those things, what?

And yes i wish to hell and back that james had not paraded her ignorance around that way-- but then, she had De Sade and Masoch et al-- the big tradition of non-con BDSm novels-- as role models.

You would have thought she would have "researched" something more modern.

I really don't think she researched much. Just went with the "whips and chains excite" type strategy. The rest of her time was spent researching Meyers books.

To look at this book as a simple story is one thing, yeah you like it, no you don't.

What some people don't understand is that it hits home to the bdsm community in a different light than the average person.

If you know nothing about BDSM and you're just reading this because you think it looks interesting or you bought into hype you're only going to have a "yay or nay" reaction.

What many don't get is that if you're part of the bdsm lifestyle/community whatever your word for it is then you are now branded by this book.

50 shades is what everyone thinks BDSM is and that is what is causing a lot of negative response from a lot of people.

To us the book is not harmless harlequin pablum, its an insult.

 

[Wyldfire]

You would have thought she would have "researched" something more modern.

I really don't think she researched much. Just went with the "whips and chains excite" type strategy. The rest of her time was spent researching Meyers books.

To look at this book as a simple story is one thing, yeah you like it, no you don't.

What some people don't understand is that it hits home to the bdsm community in a different light than the average person.

If you know nothing about BDSM and you're just reading this because you think it looks interesting or you bought into hype you're only going to have a "yay or nay" reaction.

What many don't get is that if you're part of the bdsm lifestyle/community whatever your word for it is then you are now branded by this book.

50 shades is what everyone thinks BDSM is and that is what is causing a lot of negative response from a lot of people.

To us the book is not harmless harlequin pablum, its an insult.

Oh hell if that was the case EVERY book written by a man that includes a lesbian scene is an insult and brands all bi or lesbian women. Come on dude get a freaking grip.......

 

[sr71plt]

I doubt if she gave two thoughts to pleasing the BDSM crowd or following BDSM "rules" when she wrote the book. She obviously found an audience for it. The BDSM crowd is likely so small that it didn't worry her at all. And it's not likely to worry the next writer who follows her on that. The size of the crowd that just wants to be titilated by a faux taste swamps, I'm sure, any BDSM "crowd" there is. There likely aren't too many readers who want to know anything different about BDSM or what a sadomasochist really, really does.

The good news is that the sadomasochist crowd that's so het about flagellating itself over her books is serving its need that way. So maybe she really does care about them.

 

[lovecraft68]

Oh hell if that was the case EVERY book written by a man that includes a lesbian scene is an insult and brands all bi or lesbian women. Come on dude get a freaking grip.......

Bad sex scenes vs something harmful are very different.

BDSM involves things that can be physically harmful. The woman mentions using zip ties amongst other misnomers that could get someone hurt.

Never mind creating a legion of naive kids who now think they know something they don't.

Crappy sex scenes or painting every lesbian as a sex craved porn star is definitely inaccurate, but isn't going to send someone to the emergency room.

 

[TxRad]

Oh hell if that was the case EVERY book written by a man that includes a lesbian scene is an insult and brands all bi or lesbian women. Come on dude get a freaking grip.......

Nope, not the same thing at all. It wouldn't matter if the author of 50 was male or female, his point still stands. So leave the sexist crap at the curb. It don't apply to what he said.

 

[sr71plt]

Oh, get a grip, TxRad. He's just sour that she's making money off it and he isn't (beyond just reacting as a true masochist would react). You can't put together a best-selling book target audience with a true BDSM crowd. There's nothing mainstream in this "BDSM by the rules" behavior.

 

[Wyldfire]

Nope, not the same thing at all. It wouldn't matter if the author of 50 was male or female, his point still stands. So leave the sexist crap at the curb. It don't apply to what he said.

It sure as hell does apply, that is, if his point is someone writting about something they have no experience in...... Statements still stand, get a grip.... The books aren't damaging the BDSM community...... The BDSM community is hurting itself with it's panicing about what the books are doing to their community.

 

[lovecraft68]

Oh, get a grip, TxRad. He's just sour that she's making money off it and he isn't (beyond just reacting as a true masochist would react). You can't put together a best-selling book target audience with a true BDSM crowd. There's nothing mainstream in this.

The money doesn't matter. I said back in the beginning I don't fault anyone for making money. I don't have respect for someone who does it by ripping off someone else, but that's my opinion. James is just the Yoko Ono of books right now.

And I have to agree with you a flat out accurate bdsm book will most likely not ever have mainstream appeal. True bdsm is just not as sexy to a "passer by"

What is hitting mainstream is BDSM "lite" an author here named Dakota Lynn is doing pretty well with it.

Shades, however isn't really "lite" some of the things mentioned there are extreme and handled in a disturbingly inaccurate manner.

I know saying the book is "dangerous" sounds very dramatic and its not to many people, but to the type to "try this at home" oh, yes it is.

If you read it, you would see the examples pretty clearly.

 

[lovecraft68]

It sure as hell does apply, that is, if his point is someone writting about something they have no experience in...... Statements still stand, get a grip.... The books aren't damaging the BDSM community...... The BDSM community is hurting itself with it's panicing about what the books are doing to their community.

No, the "panic" is girls/women who now want Mr. Gray. People who think he is what a dom is. That book has more examples of domestic violence than it does a d/s relationship.

That's the panic. I mean yes its about reputation, but its more about a lot of naive people setting about to get hurt.

Understand that by nature BDSM draws its share of sick people. True sadists who have found an outlet to really hurt someone.

If a sub is especially submissive or does not know better they can really be hurt. And what this book has done is enable those sadists to come out of the woodwork as that was what Gray truly was.

Again I'll say I don't think there is bad intent on James part, just ignorance which can be more dangerous at times than ill intent.

 

[PennLady]

I shouldn't do this...

I think that it's giving EL James too much credit to say she researched, or didn't, anything for those books. Not BDSM, not people's psyches, not the reasons people might want to be involved with BDSM, not anything else.

She wrote a "Twilight" fan fic story. That's it. That's all. She (seems to have) put in elements of what she thought was involved in BDSM, and she was wrong. She wasn't trying to make any big statement about erotica, or BDSM, or anything else like that. Great, we know that. It resonated with a lot of people online, and then a publisher decided to take a chance on it, and did, successfully.

That might piss off other writers, but hey, thems the breaks.

And it all doesn't matter. If you didn't buy the books, then she didn't get your money. If you don't want to read them, you don't have to. If you don't want to talk about them, you don't have to.

It's insulting to anyone who enjoyed them, for whatever reason, to say that they only did so b/c they're stupid (in so many words). It's also insulting when you intimate that those people are then going to go out and look for Christian Greys, or imitate the scenes, etc. No doubt some will -- people do stupid things. They even make TV shows about it. But most will not. Most will read it and then add it to the pile of books on the floor or the basement.

Just let it go.

 

[sr71plt]

On second thought, I might just go out and buy the set to enjoy the whining it provokes.

 

[lovecraft68]

I shouldn't do this...

I think that it's giving EL James too much credit to say she researched, or didn't, anything for those books. Not BDSM, not people's psyches, not the reasons people might want to be involved with BDSM, not anything else.

She wrote a "Twilight" fan fic story. That's it. That's all. She (seems to have) put in elements of what she thought was involved in BDSM, and she was wrong. She wasn't trying to make any big statement about erotica, or BDSM, or anything else like that. Great, we know that. It resonated with a lot of people online, and then a publisher decided to take a chance on it, and did, successfully.

That might piss off other writers, but hey, thems the breaks.

And it all doesn't matter. If you didn't buy the books, then she didn't get your money. If you don't want to read them, you don't have to. If you don't want to talk about them, you don't have to.

It's insulting to anyone who enjoyed them, for whatever reason, to say that they only did so b/c they're stupid (in so many words). It's also insulting when you intimate that those people are then going to go out and look for Christian Greys, or imitate the scenes, etc. No doubt some will -- people do stupid things. They even make TV shows about it. But most will not. Most will read it and then add it to the pile of books on the floor or the basement.

Just let it go.

When someone writes a book about hockey and makes up new rules and totally misrepresents the sport. and then everyone starts talking about how great it is, you can come back and tell me how you feel.

And you keep missing the point where I say James intended none of this. Truth be told she's not smart enough. Watch interviews with her, she's 14 in her head if she's that any controversy was created by accident.

And where you say "no doubt some will" that's my point I said most people will be like yeah whatever and move on. The some is in for a lot of trouble and when one of the some manages to really hurt themselves guess what will be blamed.

BDSM.

If you're not part of it, you won't get it. Pure and simple.

As Hannibal Lecter says to the senator in Silence of the Lambs "What will you do when its your baby on the slab" when it affects you your tune will change that is human nature.

 

[TxRad]

Oh, get a grip, TxRad. He's just sour that she's making money off it and he isn't (beyond just reacting as a true masochist would react). You can't put together a best-selling book target audience with a true BDSM crowd. There's nothing mainstream in this "BDSM by the rules" behavior.

I don't care what you think of LC's reaction. His reaction has nothing to do with mine.

It sure as hell does apply, that is, if his point is someone writting about something they have no experience in...... Statements still stand, get a grip.... The books aren't damaging the BDSM community...... The BDSM community is hurting itself with it's panicing about what the books are doing to their community.

Sorry but the damage isn't to the BDSM community per-say, it's to the people that read incorrect information and the way it can get them into big trouble. So the example of Bi and lesbian doesn't hold true. A little misinformation on a lesbian relationship won't get you hurt nearly as bad as taking a masochist as a Dom.

 

[lovecraft68]

On second thought, I might just go out and buy the set to enjoy the whining it provokes.

Go for it, I would be interested in your take as an editor. I know an English major who started it and said it was too painful to get through from a technical standpoint.

So it would be intriguing to have you post back on it.

 

[sr71plt]

I don't care what you think of LC's reaction. His reaction has nothing to do with mine.

I don't give two figs for your reaction, either.

And your "they'll read it and try it at home" applies to a whole hell of a lot of other erotica/porn categories, including your stories. So you can just get off your high horse about that one.

 

[lovecraft68]

Sorry but the damage isn't to the BDSM community per-say, it's to the people that read incorrect information and the way it can get them into big trouble. So the example of Bi and lesbian doesn't hold true. A little misinformation on a lesbian relationship won't get you hurt nearly as bad as taking a masochist as a Dom.

Right, this is what I'm trying to get at.

The other thing that has the BDSM peeps pissed is the correlation between mental illness and BDSM and abuse leading to BDSM.

Grey was beaten as a child and now gets his rocks off beating women under the mask of BDSM, that is what the story is portraying.

Now a lot of abused guys do end up as abusers, using the monkey see monkey do excuse and the well my daddy did it defense. But when that happens its called domestic assault according to this book its now being a dom.

 

[lovecraft68]

I don't give two figs for your reaction, either.

And your "they'll read it and try it at home" applies to a whole hell of a lot of other erotica/porn categories, including your stories. So you can just get off your high horse about that one.

But bdsm is really about the only one that can hurt you or set you up for a lifetime of abuse.

Of course erotic asphyxia is right up there in don't try this at home.

 

[PennLady]

When someone writes a book about hockey and makes up new rules and totally misrepresents the sport. and then everyone starts talking about how great it is, you can come back and tell me how you feel.

I've read bad hockey romances that get the sport wrong. I read a book that talked about players receiving three-minute penalties, and other stupid stuff. I'm sure there are some people who think it's great, but I'll also bet they don't care about the hockey. They liked the romance part. And that's what they like, in part at least, with 50 Shades. Not so much the BDSM, but the romance (such as it is).

And you keep missing the point where I say James intended none of this. Truth be told she's not smart enough. Watch interviews with her, she's 14 in her head if she's that any controversy was created by accident.

No, I got that. Which is why I said I think it's giving too much credit to think that she might have -- or even thought about - researching any of it.

And where you say "no doubt some will" that's my point I said most people will be like yeah whatever and move on. The some is in for a lot of trouble and when one of the some manages to really hurt themselves guess what will be blamed.

BDSM.

If you're not part of it, you won't get it. Pure and simple.

I'm sure that's true to a point, but some of it has to be blamed on the people doing whatever they're doing. Like Jackass -- it had imitators, right? And some of those people got hurt. The show got some blame (as I recall), but more blame went to people stupid enough to do those things. As it should be.

And if they do something James said and get hurt, no doubt they'd sue her. But it's still their fault for thinking a romance fanfic is an instruction manual.

 

[sr71plt]

I just this morning started reading a mystery (mainstream) that was published by Penguin (a mainstream publisher that has so many distribution points, its paperback books are guaranteed at least a five-figure royalty for the author simply because of all the chances the book gets to be bought). In a passage, three people get into a car, a man and two women. During the trip, one of the women is upset by the way the male driver is tailgating other cars (and we get a description of that). When they reach their destination, the author has the other woman set the hand brake and get out of the driver's door.

Did I do a little "I'd never screw up a description of action that badly, and yet Penguin doesn't publish me" dance? Why, yes I did. But I don't plan on whining about it for weeks and months and possibly years on the Internet. I just pulled my big boy pants up with an "oh, well," and went on about my business.

And as far as readers going "I'll try this at home," I'm pretty much with Darwin on that one. But I don't for a minute think the whiners about this here have any concern for the brain limited in emulation; I believe it's just sour grapes about what someone else got done and they didn't.

 

[lovecraft68]

I just this morning started reading a mystery (mainstream) that was published by Penguin (a mainstream publisher that has so many distribution points, its paperback books are guaranteed at least a five-figure royalty for the author simply because of all the chances the book gets to be bought). In a passage, three people get into a car, a man and two women. During the trip, one of the women is upset by the way the male driver is tailgating other cars (and we get a description of that). When they reach their destination, the author has the other woman set the hand brake and get out of the driver's door.

Did I do a little "I'd never screw up a description of action that badly, and yet Penguin doesn't publish me" dance? Why, yes I did. But I don't plan on whining about it for weeks and months and possibly years on the Internet. I just pulled my big boy pants up with an "oh, well," and went on about my business.

And as far as readers going "I'll try this at home," I'm pretty much with Darwin on that one. But I don't for a minute think the whiners about this here have any concern for the brain limited in emulation; I believe it's just sour grapes about what someone else got done and they didn't.

Wasn't Penguin one of the publishers that just lost that suit against amazon?

As to your points, when its nothing to do with you, its easy to say who cares.

I agree with the Darwin remark. I usually refer to it as Stupid should hurt, but stupid also doesn't need encouragement.

I also don't think women needed another predator being glorified under the guise of romance.

But hey, if you're looking to go with a big time publisher why not try random house? They obviously are not fussy.

 

[Stella_Omega]

But bdsm is really about the only one that can hurt you or set you up for a lifetime of abuse.

Of course erotic asphyxia is right up there in don't try this at home.

Romantic love IMO-- that expectation is more dangerous.

And incest fantasies -- LC you really need to head over to the fetish forum and read how many guys encourage each other to make passes at their sisters/mothers/aunts/cousins. They really do. After all, the stories end happy ever after, right?

But fapping is fapping. Dudes also fap about shemales, women fap about men who can read their minds in bed. A lot of fap fantasies are on the louche side, but- it is what it is.

 

[Cruel2BKind]

Oh hell if that was the case EVERY book written by a man that includes a lesbian scene is an insult and brands all bi or lesbian women.

Um...

That's actually usually the case.

Almost everything in the media about lesbians and bisexual women is degrading, misinforming, or just straight-up wrong. Leading to biphobia, sexualizing lesbians until they become nothing but sex symbols and not women, cheapening lesbian relationships, and more.

Ya kinda just proved LC's point there. I'm not talking about how dangerous it is per se, but how the misinformation can objectify and demean certain groups. Certainly the BDSM community.

 

[sr71plt]

Depends on how you want to define "dangerous" in an apples and pears situation, but incest is certainly a danger that can screw up multiple lives and sink the damage down into generations (and even, potentially medically, create long-lasting damage to a person that it would take a whole lot of bruises to offset). So, try another argument, gang.

And now, when you like to write BDSM piled on incest--and then whine about the damage that the Fifty Shades potentially may do . . . don't make me laugh. (especially as I'm busy going with Darwin.)

The argumet is specious. It's pure sour grapes.

P.S. Oh, yes, there's also rape and pedophilia. Those are all over the mainstream--not just books. Movies, TV, the whole nine yards. And they are a little dangerous. The books, movies, and TV don't stop on the boundary of death on either of those.

So, the BDSM thing on Fifty Shades here is nothing more than sour grapes. And it just continues here because those doing the sour grapes thing just don't know when to zip it up.