Is it time for the U.S. to withdraw from the Middle East?

[Beco]

I do believe we should stop manipulating governments. With the aid we give and the scapegoad we provide, we're responsible for all the bad things and get no credit for the good.

I don't think we should nationbuild. MacArthur was partially successful because he was dealing with nations that were motivated and had industry as part of their original culture, it didn't need to be taught and adopted. We were on the same page.

We are not on the same page in the Middle East. They want us out, we should be out. Nations have their own identities and cultures, and it's up to the populace to decide what that should be. The resentment of America is not a culture, but it's the only one we're providing.

We should practice compassion and iron restraint and get the hell out, stop being blamed for every sparrow falling.

No, nobody has any clue WHAT THEY WANT! That's fact.

 

[Recidiva]

No, nobody has any clue WHAT THEY WANT! That's fact.

What I know is that it isn't up to me to tell them what they want.

 

[Beco]

What I know is that it isn't up to me to tell them what they want.

Agreed. Mubarak kept the peace for 30 years....why all of a sudden do we back someone else?

 

[Recidiva]

Agreed. Mubarak kept the peace for 30 years....why all of a sudden do we back someone else?

We shouldn't have backed Mubarak is the answer to that.

This is who they chose. Now we maintain diplomatic relationships, don't overrreact, and realize that other people have other countries and other ways of living.

 

[garbage can]

With regard to energy concerns, I could see opening up in full all N. American energy fields to exploration and extraction, combined with alternative energy sources.

We should have done that during the Clinton administration......

 

[LongPenStroke]

Agreed. Mubarak kept the peace for 30 years....why all of a sudden do we back someone else?

He kept the peace, but at what cost? Stalin kept the peace, Kim Jong Il kept the peace, but we still view them as enemies.

 

[Recidiva]

He kept the peace, but at what cost? Stalin kept the peace, Kim Jong Il kept the peace, but we still view them as enemies.

It cost the education and security of a populace who are ignorant and oppressed. It's partially our part in Mubarak's case and even in Kim Jong Il's case as we provided funding.

Now the populace is angry at everyone and everything, including us. Who could not see that coming?

 

[LongPenStroke]

With regard to energy concerns, I could see opening up in full all N. American energy fields to exploration and extraction, combined with alternative energy sources.

This would would have very little impact on our energy needs. People who run off yelling oil independence and that we have enough oil to support ourselves have no clue about oil in general.

Like everything else, oil comes in many varieties. The type of oil used to fuel your car is different than the type of oil that is used to fuel an energy plant which is a different type of oil that is used to heat your house which is a different type of oil that is used in the crankshaft of your engine.

Most of the oil in North America is pure and utter crap. You could open up every oil field in North America, and we will still have to import oil from other countries.

People on tv who spout this garbage pray on the ignorance of others and fail to tell the complete truth.

 

[Beco]

He kept the peace, but at what cost? Stalin kept the peace, Kim Jong Il kept the peace, but we still view them as enemies.

so get rid of terrible Mubarak and off we go into the unknown? People attacking our embassies?

 

[Recidiva]

so get rid of terrible Mubarak and off we go into the unknown? People attacking our embassies?

"People" attacking an embassy on the anniversary of 9/11 on a ridiculous excuse doesn't strike you as suspicious? We don't do what they want us to do. They're crazy.

They weren't the actions of a country.

No amount of war is going to ensure that everybody likes us and is nice all the time.

 

[LongPenStroke]

so get rid of terrible Mubarak and off we go into the unknown? People attacking our embassies?

Better to let them make the decision of how they want to be governed than to force it down their throats. Did you ever stop to think that they might be upset because we did force Mubarak down their throats?

How would you feel if China chose our leader, and that leader imprisoned your friends and family and forced draconian laws upon you?

 

[Recidiva]

Better to let them make the decision of how they want to be governed than to force it down their throats. Did you ever stop to think that they might be upset because we did force Mubarak down their throats?

How would you feel if China chose our leader, and that leader imprisoned your friends and family and forced draconian laws upon you?

Oooh. I know that one. I might not like it. Given that I have no job or civil rights, I also might not like it to the extent that I'm willing to die and kill for it at the stupidest excuse.

 

[Krotos]

Better to let them make the decision of how they want to be governed than to force it down their throats. Did you ever stop to think that they might be upset because we did force Mubarak down their throats?

How would you feel if China chose our leader, and that leader imprisoned your friends and family and forced draconian laws upon you?

So the US "choose" Mubarak? Like how? Did the Marines invade Cairo and install the evil dictator in place of his benevolent philosopher-king predecessor Anwar Sadat, whom these Marines viciously assassinated?

Damn. One learns something new every day.

 

[Krotos]

Oooh. I know that one. I might not like it. Given that I have no job or civil rights, I also might not like it to the extent that I'm willing to die and kill for it at the stupidest excuse.

I know, right? When you don't like your government, it's only natural to become prone to murder frenzies at the drop of a hat. There's something decidedly wrong with people who don't develop a murder drive when their life sucks.

 

[EMPRESSLAINIE]

Gadhaffi had renounced terrorism. He was actually a friend. BUT he wanted to establish an Arabic currency system based on gold not under the control of world bankers with his $22 Billion in Gold Bullion, that we now hear nothing about. So who made off with it? That is what the destruction of Libya was about I think......but I admit I could be wrong.

Going back to the 1950's the US has a history of betraying friends: Hungary, Poland, Taiwan, (then we sell the country to the Red Chinese!!!), others I just can't think of right now, then Libya, Egypt, Probably in the Balkan states too, oh yes, Georgia (not the state!)

 

[Recidiva]

I know, right? When you don't like your government, it's only natural to become prone to murder frenzies at the drop of a hat. There's something decidedly wrong with people who don't develop a murder drive when their life sucks.

This is not about "not liking" a government.

The American Revolution happened because people were taxed at approximately 2%. People died for it.

Those are my ancestors. Now we still don't like our government and we are taxed higher.

 

[Joeybagadonuts]

Unless someone is permitted to find an alternative energy source to run our cars, we won't be leaving the middle east any time soon.

 

[Peregrinator]

I know injecting factual information into discussions like this on Lit is sort of like farting in church, but hey, look at this!


http://www.window.state.tx.us/specialrpt/energy/nonrenewable/images/exhibit4-21.png

Source: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...LNUUL3HK-Hw0gGh3YCQDg&ved=0CDQQ9QEwAw&dur=737

 

[IrezumiKiss]

I know injecting factual information into discussions like this on Lit is sort of like farting in church, but hey, look at this!


http://www.window.state.tx.us/specialrpt/energy/nonrenewable/images/exhibit4-21.png

Source: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...LNUUL3HK-Hw0gGh3YCQDg&ved=0CDQQ9QEwAw&dur=737

Perg, stop farting all over the place! I can't hear the Adolfs on the microphone at the pew!

Ewwww, stinky, stinky factual truths!

 

[Krotos]

This is not about "not liking" a government.

The American Revolution happened because people were taxed at approximately 2%. People died for it.

Those are my ancestors. Now we still don't like our government and we are taxed higher.

The American Revolution was a war of secession, not a war of taxation. The colonists ceased to be British and evolved into a society all their own.

The Arab Spring happened because the increasingly affluent Far East is pricing the economically impotent Arab world out of basic food staples like wheat and rice. Governing regimes of countries which import most of their food and produce nothing they could export ran out of money first and out of distractions later. That's the reason why large, populous and not particularly oil-rich states fell to the Arab Spring but the small, scarcely populated, oil-rich monarchies of the Persian Gulf have not.

 

[Recidiva]

The American Revolution was a war of secession, not a war of taxation. The colonists ceased to be British and evolved into a society all their own.

The Arab Spring happened because the increasingly affluent Far East is pricing the economically impotent Arab world out of basic food staples like wheat and rice. Governing regimes of countries which import most of their food and produce nothing they could export ran out of money first and out of distractions later. That's the reason why large, populous and not particularly oil-rich states fell to the Arab Spring but the small, scarcely populated, oil-rich monarchies of the Persian Gulf have not.

I think the revolution in the Arab nations is just beginning. It will take decades to run its course. The best we can do is try to kill the fewest people and get the hell out of the way of the people who actually have a stake in how their nations are run.

 

[The_Mahout]

Or at least scale back its presence to its bilateral defense agreement with Israel and whichever 'friendly' countries in the region that remain?

After all, 40+ years of intervention in the region has not increased stability.

Has it been proven that democracy is not a "god-given right" and that we should let the region settle on whatever form of government they choose/is imposed on them from internal forces?

Discuss.

Maybe the answer would be to let them do as they please: close the embassies there and send their diplomats home as well. Sort of a "time-out" for the hostile arab countries in the middle east and northern africa. No flights, no visas, no agreements. Just let them "win" and allow china or the russians or whoever wants to go in. Why not? After the religious civil wars, economic wars, tribal wars, drug wars, etc. have gone on for a few decades, they may be ready to reenter the civilized world. Until then, let them sort it all out on their own.

 

[Squibbs]

No shit.....can't pay our own bill's, why the fuck are we still footing everyone elses?

Judging by some of the people here, it's because you are a nation of imbeciles.

 

[Krotos]

I think the revolution in the Arab nations is just beginning. It will take decades to run its course. The best we can do is try to kill the fewest people and get the hell out of the way of the people who actually have a stake in how their nations are run.

You can't get out of the Middle East, that's the thing. The option's not on offer, it never was.

The Big Game never stops. If you're not a player, you're a pawn of other players.

What the US needs to do is fortify its ties with genuine allies, build up economic resilience at home and prepare to defend itself from the spillover effects of the Arab collapse. The Chinese are already hard at work doing exactly that. They're still paying lip service to good relations with Muslims, but meanwhile they're sponsoring a high-speed railway in Israel from the Mediterranian to the Red Sea- a bypass option in case the Suez Canal is shut down. They're buying up water tech, biomed and renewable energy start-ups. The US should be beating them to it.

 

[Recidiva]

You can't get out of the Middle East, that's the thing. The option's not on offer, it never was.

The Big Game never stops. If you're not a player, you're a pawn of other players.

What the US needs to do is fortify its ties with genuine allies, build up economic resilience at home and prepare to defend itself from the spillover effects of the Arab collapse. The Chinese are already hard at work doing exactly that. They're still paying lip service to good relations with Muslims, but meanwhile they're sponsoring a high-speed railway in Israel from the Mediterranian to the Red Sea- a bypass option in case the Suez Canal is shut down. They're buying up water tech, biomed and renewable energy start-ups. The US should be beating them to it.

Remain engaged, but stop fucking up everybody's agenda by pushing our own.

The Middle East has had its identity raided by the west and would like it back, please.

They need to do it for themselves. Be supportive, just don't behave like a meddling parent of an adolescent they want to make over in their image.

The best thing we can do is get out of the way as far as making policy goes, but be supportive as far as feeding people and building the buildings they choose to build.