Realism versus fantasy in porn.

[lovecraft68]

I say make it clever.

Ohhh, is that a dare?

I don't know. We all have our quirks in our writing and personality and I'm not sure I could (to my satisfaction) come up with a realistic way a woman would watch a mother fuck her son and not only become aroused, but also join in.

I also mention in the story that the girlfriend has known the mother for years and the son since he was a little kid, so that makes it more tricky.

Sadly I could just start the chapter with the mother/son fucking the girlfriend walking in and saying "Wow, can I play too" and get into the sex and no one would complain.

 

[Brandie69]

Many incest series that are chapters just become the same two fucking in a different part of the house or something clever like "This time Mom takes it in the ass"

That's precisely how I feel, and yet, you'll have readers who want you to write just that.

 

[MaxSebastian]

Now bear in mind I just got fairly broadly 1-bombed for trying some realism (well, a little) in a group sex story, as it all took a little too long to get to the actual group part for a lot of voters.

But, if I were you and worried about how to introduce the group angle with this story, work on the relationship between the girlfriend and the mother, since they are the ones not currently together. Somehow, the girlfriend is drawn to the mother, whether it's for a new thing, or because she secretly needs some kind of maternal support.

The mother's drawn to the girlfriend since she's also non-threatening (since she's not male).

Then, when all sides of the triangle are happy together, join up the corners and your group relationship should flow nicely.

 

[lovecraft68]

Now bear in mind I just got fairly broadly 1-bombed for trying some realism (well, a little) in a group sex story, as it all took a little too long to get to the actual group part for a lot of voters.

But, if I were you and worried about how to introduce the group angle with this story, work on the relationship between the girlfriend and the mother, since they are the ones not currently together. Somehow, the girlfriend is drawn to the mother, whether it's for a new thing, or because she secretly needs some kind of maternal support.

The mother's drawn to the girlfriend since she's also non-threatening (since she's not male).

Then, when all sides of the triangle are happy together, join up the corners and your group relationship should flow nicely.

I feel your pain in the group ex department. My nude day entry was a threesome and people weren't happy I gave a back story and they weren;t fucking the maid in the first three paragraphs.

Pissed me off because let me tell you, I spared nothing on the sex. Three lit pages of sex, one long continuous scene with several orgasms by all. But you just can;t please them all.

 

[Balke7612]

I get that, I've lost count of the stories I've stopped reading halfway through the third paragraph because someone jumped on top of some highly improbable mate without rhyme or reason.

I think perhaps that when I'm writing I get overly cautious about constructing a believable scenerio, writing page after page of careful treading, only to lose my way after initial contact. That is something I should work on.

It turns out it drives readers crazy if you keep dragging it out. So, having become known as an horrible tease, my advice to you is to tantalize with the next chapter, but let the characters be true to themselves. My all time favorite reader response is from the young lady who wrote something along the lines of "I keep expecting this to turn into a wild sex romp, but you never disappoint me."

Not horrible but definitely a tease, and that's really appreciated. To begin with I expected that series to go the same way as so many others with a similar beginning do and as a reader I think one kind of gears themself up with such expectations, for some it then becomes a disappointment when they're wrong, they perhaps feel cheated. I enjoy the unexpected though, maybe I should expect it more often from you.

 

[PayDay]

Ohhh, is that a dare?

Only if you're feeling feisty

I don't know. We all have our quirks in our writing and personality and I'm not sure I could (to my satisfaction) come up with a realistic way a woman would watch a mother fuck her son and not only become aroused, but also join in.

I don't think I've ever been satisfied by my own writing

From what I can tell, most writers have fans based on the style or tone. It isn't about feasibility, necessarily, but willingness.

If you wrote it, no matter what you come up with, your fans would read it, and probably thank you for it, even if it wasn't upto your personal par.

One of my best rated stories was one I wrote for shits and giggles, thinking no one would like it because it's unrealistic.

 

[LettersFromTatyana]

Once you have realistic characters--with personalities and chemistry that work alone and together--you can do pretty much anything with them (as long as it's in character) and still keep my interest.

It doesn't matter to me if those characters, with their realistic personalities and actions, enter some sort of bizarro earth where everyone is gorgeous, has incredible stamina and recovery time, etc.; I'll accept those extraordinary physical characteristics if I think the two personalities are ordinary.

As for incest, realism doesn't even get off the starting line, since I can't see how an otherwise normal and well-adjusted individual would want to fuck a relative. To take LC's opening, I can't imagine a non-psychologically disturbed person saying, "gee, my spouse died--time to fuck my kid!" and I have no interest in reading a story where the characters are actually fucked up enough to engage in incest.

 

[PayDay]

As for incest, realism doesn't even get off the starting line, since I can't see how an otherwise normal and well-adjusted individual would want to fuck a relative. To take LC's opening, I can't imagine a non-psychologically disturbed person saying, "gee, my spouse died--time to fuck my kid!" and I have no interest in reading a story where the characters are actually fucked up enough to engage in incest.

I was trying as hard as I could not to type this---^

 

[lovecraft68]

I was trying as hard as I could not to type this---^

But therein lies the challenge. It's easy to make almost any other category here believable, incest is tricky, but can be done.

The westermarck effect leaves some interesting openings.

Of course the average stroke reader here has probably not studied it, but they don;t need to know my sources.

 

[PayDay]

But therein lies the challenge. It's easy to make almost any other category here believable, incest is tricky, but can be done.

The westermarck effect leaves some interesting openings.

Of course the average stroke reader here has probably not studied it, but they don;t need to know my sources.

Wiki?

 

[soflabbwlvr]

To me, incest is in a fantasy realm anyway, no matter how realistic an author may make it. So once you have family members having sex, moving on to something else like the suggested threesome isn't really that much of a leap.

As for incest, realism doesn't even get off the starting line, since I can't see how an otherwise normal and well-adjusted individual would want to fuck a relative. To take LC's opening, I can't imagine a non-psychologically disturbed person saying, "gee, my spouse died--time to fuck my kid!" and I have no interest in reading a story where the characters are actually fucked up enough to engage in incest.

The incest written about on Lit. and discussed in the forums is as divorced from reality as any story posted in Sci-Fi, Nonhuman, or Erotic Horror. In most cases, incest involves an older relative initially preying on a child between the years of 8 and 12. It can continue for years--even decades. The damage done to that child has been described as similar to rape. The primary difference is that the rapist usually uses force to accomplish the violation, while the incestuous relative relies upon misplaced trust.

Incidents of adult relatives initiating consensual, incestuous relationships are so rare as to be statistically non-existent. Like vampires, werewolves, and green-eyed multi-tentacled aliens, they are entirely the creation of a fertile imagination. No amount of skill can make them real.

 

[lovecraft68]

The incest written about on Lit. and discussed in the forums is as divorced from reality as any story posted in Sci-Fi, Nonhuman, or Erotic Horror. In most cases, incest involves an older relative initially preying on a child between the years of 8 and 12. It can continue for years--even decades. The damage done to that child has been described as similar to rape. The primary difference is that the rapist usually uses force to accomplish the violation, while the incestuous relative relies upon misplaced trust.

Incidents of adult relatives initiating consensual, incestuous relationships are so rare as to be statistically non-existent. Like vampires, werewolves, and green-eyed multi-tentacled aliens, they are entirely the creation of a fertile imagination. No amount of skill can make them real.

Like everyone tells me about the rape stories here this is fantasy.

18+ consensual fantasy. at least in the stories. Sadly the "Incest is Best" thread has had to be cleaned up multiple times due to posters claiming incestuous encounters from when they were young kids.

Lit incest is for the most part fun and fluffy. Which is why I took heat for SWB, which had heavy BDSM sex as well as a depressing story lines. Incest fans here want fun and romantic incest.

Now for the record when a parent-and most of the time its the father-or uncle or a relative is arrested for molesting a young family member the charge is never incest

It's child abuse, sexual assault and molestation, incest is not brought into play, it doesn't need to be after the other charges. Oh, there is also a funny charge called Rape, but shhh you can't say that word here.

If I had to take my pick I would gamble with the incest over the non consent rape crowd. Incest fans want to get off on a twisted fantasy, no harm no foul.

non con gets off on pain, suffering, humiliation and the criminal act of rape. The people stroking to the pure(not fantasy, or reluctance, or consensual stories) rape stories are sick and dangerous individuals who would love to hurt women, but as of yet have not gotten the stones to try it.

I'll prefer to "keep it in the family" thank you very much,

 

[lovecraft68]

Wiki?

No, psychology courses. General, abnormal, sexual and criminal. I enjoy taking classes in my spare time.

I'm a bit more educated than I let on here, much to the chagrin of certain detractors.

 

[PennLady]

The incest written about on Lit. and discussed in the forums is as divorced from reality as any story posted in Sci-Fi, Nonhuman, or Erotic Horror. In most cases, incest involves an older relative initially preying on a child between the years of 8 and 12. It can continue for years--even decades. The damage done to that child has been described as similar to rape. The primary difference is that the rapist usually uses force to accomplish the violation, while the incestuous relative relies upon misplaced trust.

Incidents of adult relatives initiating consensual, incestuous relationships are so rare as to be statistically non-existent. Like vampires, werewolves, and green-eyed multi-tentacled aliens, they are entirely the creation of a fertile imagination. No amount of skill can make them real.

I should have been more specific, because this is what I meant. When I talk about incest on here, I'm talking the stories where everyone must be 18+. So yes, to me (as Tatyana said), otherwise normal people engaging in these relationships is as fantastical as werewolves and spaceships.

In terms of just writing a story, I think a writer can keep these stories plausible within their bubbles, but I wouldn't think of them as realistic.

 

[Verdad]

Like everyone tells me about the rape stories here this is fantasy.

18+ consensual fantasy. at least in the stories. Sadly the "Incest is Best" thread has had to be cleaned up multiple times due to posters claiming incestuous encounters from when they were young kids.

Lit incest is for the most part fun and fluffy. Which is why I took heat for SWB, which had heavy BDSM sex as well as a depressing story lines. Incest fans here want fun and romantic incest.

Now for the record when a parent-and most of the time its the father-or uncle or a relative is arrested for molesting a young family member the charge is never incest

It's child abuse, sexual assault and molestation, incest is not brought into play, it doesn't need to be after the other charges. Oh, there is also a funny charge called Rape, but shhh you can't say that word here.

If I had to take my pick I would gamble with the incest over the non consent rape crowd. Incest fans want to get off on a twisted fantasy, no harm no foul.

non con gets off on pain, suffering, humiliation and the criminal act of rape. The people stroking to the pure(not fantasy, or reluctance, or consensual stories) rape stories are sick and dangerous individuals who would love to hurt women, but as of yet have not gotten the stones to try it.

I'll prefer to "keep it in the family" thank you very much,

Arguing with you on this subject gets tired ‘cause your stamina matches that of the most voracious porn characters.

The bold part still deserves response, even if it puts me once again in the precarious position of non-con’s main defender.

I am calling it non-con instead of rape because it’s a mistake even to conceptualize the fantasy in terms of rape. Granted, I’ve not read every non-con story out there, not even a small fraction of them, and the fraction of the fraction I have read were obviously chosen so as to appeal to me. There may well be tons of vicious rape stories out there of which I’m blissfully unaware.

The category as I know it, though, and as it tends to be written and read by women, most assuredly isn’t about pain and suffering. It’s, if anything, about getting pleasure, and getting it without effort, without even as much of it as it takes to consent. These women most emphatically do not want to be raped, not even fantasy raped, but if you find that paradoxical, my best advice to you is not to read these stories, lest you get wrong ideas.

We’re in the realm of sexual metaphor where not everything is as it seems. You should appreciate it, because many people tolerate incest stories only because they believe it must be true of them as well. Assurances from reasonable people that these stories aren’t about actual incest but about taboo, proximity, or something of the kind never quite convince me because I just don’t get it, but I’m willing to entertain the possibility they’re not as disturbing as it seems.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

I should have been more specific, because this is what I meant. When I talk about incest on here, I'm talking the stories where everyone must be 18+. So yes, to me (as Tatyana said), otherwise normal people engaging in these relationships is as fantastical as werewolves and spaceships.

In terms of just writing a story, I think a writer can keep these stories plausible within their bubbles, but I wouldn't think of them as realistic.

PL, I understood you completely. I was merely expanding on your statement (and Tatyana's).

I just don't get the attraction or enduring popularity of the incest category. But there is no denying that it is popular here, both in the story section and on the forums.

And with respect to NonCon/Reluctance, LC68, I also have some problems with that section, even though I occasionally write those stories. To me, there is a difference between nonconsent and reluctance. I don't care for stories where someone is forcibly raped. I don't know how those sometimes slip through the cracks, except as a result of screener overload. I do, however, appreciate those stories where someone is in a situation where sex is the only or the best means of resolving an otherwise impossible situation. That is the type of story that I like to read and will sometimes write.

 

[Stella_Omega]

<snip>
In terms of just writing a story, I think a writer can keep these stories plausible within their bubbles, but I wouldn't think of them as realistic.

"Plausible within their bubbles" is such a good way to put it-- almost everything I write is plausible within its bubble. Thank you for a great turn of phrase.

 

[lovecraft68]

PL, I understood you completely. I was merely expanding on your statement (and Tatyana's).

I just don't get the attraction or enduring popularity of the incest category. But there is no denying that it is popular here, both in the story section and on the forums.

And with respect to NonCon/Reluctance, LC68, I also have some problems with that section, even though I occasionally write those stories. To me, there is a difference between nonconsent and reluctance. I don't care for stories where someone is forcibly raped. I don't know how those sometimes slip through the cracks, except as a result of screener overload. I do, however, appreciate those stories where someone is in a situation where sex is the only or the best means of resolving an otherwise impossible situation. That is the type of story that I like to read and will sometimes write.

I agree with your non con view. I do enjoy some good reluctance stories, where it may not start out enjoyable, but gets there.

I actually took a shot at writing one, you might like it.

http://www.literotica.com/s/sweet-reluctance

Problem is I have given up looking for them because I stumble into too many of the true rape stories.

They slip through because Laurel is the only one looking. The thing with true rape vs a rape story that leads into enjoyment or consent is that you would have to read the story closely, she has no time for that.

If she were serious about ridding the site of rape stories she would.

She's not.

This is a touchy subject for me, but I want to put it out there to prove a point.

In the non con section sexual trafficking stories are big there are hundreds if not more there.

This is their plot. A woman is drugged and kidnapped. She is gang raped brutally, then drugged again, then gang raped again.

She is raped until the author claims she is "submissive" what she really is, is a broken down pile of mush who has been raped into mental instability.

Then what happens is she is sold and..... repeatedly raped for the rest of her life.

Now show me consent in the sequence. Is it when she is laying on the floor crying "please?" in a fetal position, when she is begging for mercy?

Or is consent when she is a mindless machine letting guys stick it all her holes and she is too shell shocked to notice?

This site is full of crap that they don;t want those stories here. They just don;t want Rape in the title so tey can pretend to care.

My wife has over the years worked with a couple of teenage girls who were victims of this. If you met them, if you heard them wake up screaming from nightmares, if you saw them cringe like dogs when someone speaks to them, you would never want to read one of those stories again

Nor would anyone every want to stick up for those stories, except those who are truly ill.

Those stories are only fantasy for cowardly pieces of shit who get off on the abuse of women, because they could never stand up to a man in a fight.

Personally I would love to meet some of the authors who pen these things. I have something very special for them.

In the meantime, all I wish is that the site would stop lying and just say "hey we have no issue with rape stories."

The only thing they have issue with,is heaven forbid someone 17 and 364 days old gets a boner.

 

[damppanties]

Like everyone tells me about the rape stories here this is fantasy.

18+ consensual fantasy. at least in the stories. Sadly the "Incest is Best" thread has had to be cleaned up multiple times due to posters claiming incestuous encounters from when they were young kids.

Lit incest is for the most part fun and fluffy. Which is why I took heat for SWB, which had heavy BDSM sex as well as a depressing story lines. Incest fans here want fun and romantic incest.

Now for the record when a parent-and most of the time its the father-or uncle or a relative is arrested for molesting a young family member the charge is never incest

It's child abuse, sexual assault and molestation, incest is not brought into play, it doesn't need to be after the other charges. Oh, there is also a funny charge called Rape, but shhh you can't say that word here.

If I had to take my pick I would gamble with the incest over the non consent rape crowd. Incest fans want to get off on a twisted fantasy, no harm no foul.

non con gets off on pain, suffering, humiliation and the criminal act of rape. The people stroking to the pure(not fantasy, or reluctance, or consensual stories) rape stories are sick and dangerous individuals who would love to hurt women, but as of yet have not gotten the stones to try it.

I'll prefer to "keep it in the family" thank you very much,

It's interesting you see incest as psychologically okay where everyone 'falls in love' with their parents and has consensual sex whereas nonconsent or rape is a no-no where people are sick and twisted and want to hurt women. I would say incest fans and writers are also pedophiles and rapists by your definition up here (and soflabbwlvr's, to which you agreed). It's fine if you feel squicked out by nonconsent stories, that's your issue, but labeling other people, writers and readers by your issues is kind of a judgement call here in which you're merely imposing your preferences of mental sickness on everyone else. Both are sick in real life, but because you feel incest is okay in fantasy, it should be so. Right.

We’re in the realm of sexual metaphor where not everything is as it seems. You should appreciate it, because many people tolerate incest stories only because they believe it must be true of them as well. Assurances from reasonable people that these stories aren’t about actual incest but about taboo, proximity, or something of the kind never quite convince me because I just don’t get it, but I’m willing to entertain the possibility they’re not as disturbing as it seems.

That.

 

[PennLady]

"Plausible within their bubbles" is such a good way to put it-- almost everything I write is plausible within its bubble. Thank you for a great turn of phrase.

You're quite welcome. Every once in a while I have a little idea like that, so have at.

It's interesting you see incest as psychologically okay where everyone 'falls in love' with their parents and has consensual sex whereas nonconsent or rape is a no-no where people are sick and twisted and want to hurt women. I would say incest fans and writers are also pedophiles and rapists by your definition up here (and soflabbwlvr's, to which you agreed). It's fine if you feel squicked out by nonconsent stories, that's your issue, but labeling other people, writers and readers by your issues is kind of a judgement call here in which you're merely imposing your preferences of mental sickness on everyone else. Both are sick in real life, but because you feel incest is okay in fantasy, it should be so. Right.

That.

I have to say I've had these thoughts as well and never really gotten an answer to them. I don't understand why it's okay to someone like LC to have fantasy incest but not okay to have fantasy non-con. We all know that both incest and non-con/rape are, well, wrong.

I don't think people who write non-con stories are any more enamored of actually doing it than people who write incest stories actually want to sleep with a relative.

I understand LC's strong dislike of rape stories. It comes from his personal history. Yet there must be victims of incest out there, or those who know them, who would be appalled by the incest stories on this site. Should we remove the incest stories because of that? Most would say no, I'm sure. So should we remove the non-con stories b/c of people who had experiences like LC's? Again I think most would say no.

There's something on this site to offend everyone, I'm sure, but the key is we don't have to read it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

See, Lovecraft knows someone who was hurt by rape, but he doesn't know anyone who has been hurt by incest.

That's how he knows incest is okay to fantasize about.

 

[damppanties]

See, Lovecraft knows someone who was hurt by rape, but he doesn't know anyone who has been hurt by incest.

That's how he knows incest is okay to fantasize about.

I have an incestuous faux-noncon story that's in my sig right now. That should be fun to read.

 

[Verdad]

I agree with your non con view. I do enjoy some good reluctance stories, where it may not start out enjoyable, but gets there.

I actually took a shot at writing one, you might like it.

http://www.literotica.com/s/sweet-reluctance

Problem is I have given up looking for them because I stumble into too many of the true rape stories.

They slip through because Laurel is the only one looking. The thing with true rape vs a rape story that leads into enjoyment or consent is that you would have to read the story closely, she has no time for that.

If she were serious about ridding the site of rape stories she would.

She's not.

This is a touchy subject for me, but I want to put it out there to prove a point.

In the non con section sexual trafficking stories are big there are hundreds if not more there.

This is their plot. A woman is drugged and kidnapped. She is gang raped brutally, then drugged again, then gang raped again.

She is raped until the author claims she is "submissive" what she really is, is a broken down pile of mush who has been raped into mental instability.

Then what happens is she is sold and..... repeatedly raped for the rest of her life.

Now show me consent in the sequence. Is it when she is laying on the floor crying "please?" in a fetal position, when she is begging for mercy?

Or is consent when she is a mindless machine letting guys stick it all her holes and she is too shell shocked to notice?

This site is full of crap that they don;t want those stories here. They just don;t want Rape in the title so tey can pretend to care.

My wife has over the years worked with a couple of teenage girls who were victims of this. If you met them, if you heard them wake up screaming from nightmares, if you saw them cringe like dogs when someone speaks to them, you would never want to read one of those stories again

Nor would anyone every want to stick up for those stories, except those who are truly ill.

Those stories are only fantasy for cowardly pieces of shit who get off on the abuse of women, because they could never stand up to a man in a fight.

Personally I would love to meet some of the authors who pen these things. I have something very special for them.

In the meantime, all I wish is that the site would stop lying and just say "hey we have no issue with rape stories."

The only thing they have issue with,is heaven forbid someone 17 and 364 days old gets a boner.

Assuming you are right and Lit is swarming with rape stories, that only adds a couple of hundreds of submissions to the thousands I already don’t want to read and whose very existence already gives me the willies. Many of which you find darling. And that’s leaving aside other sites and other types of porn.

So, we can lament the state of our civilization, but I still don’t see why I should be especially outraged about this.

I don’t even have to be unfair and tell you to come back when you figure out a way of ridding the world of nasty writings or just agreeing on what constitutes them. You don’t need to be held to the (impossible?) standard of finding a solution. It’s enough that your comments fail as such.

The fixation on non-con tells me you don’t see the violence to women in most of the rest of porn. Zeroing in on smut that appeals to women, like 50 SOG, makes me suspect it’s female fantasies you’re least willing to tolerate. With incest, you’re unlike writers who, truthfully or not, say it's about something else. Instead, you seem to be unaware you’re defending the indefensible, and you seem kinda eager to be rid of the 18 rule too, possibly the last standard that’s still holding for now. As a moral platform to run on, I think yours needs some work.

 

[MSTarot]

Not going to get into the debate about incest vs non con. The reality and fantasy of each are apples and oranges to the other. The fantasy of each maybe worth a night or two of self gratification. The reality of each is probably worth a prison stay.

Fantasy... that a mom would come to crave sex with her son after her husband dies because he favors the father.

Reality... the mom's mental stability would probably be in question if it happened in real life.

I am a firm believer in keeping a story as real as possible. That being said, having read the story (which i thought was a fantastic read by the way) it seems to lean more to the fantasy side. I can see how the mom could end up with women, both before and after. I've been with women who were raped, who were molested. Those are the kind of things you don't get over. So i can see the mom turning to a lesbian lifestyle.

Now even if she had the greatest of life with the husband, and she came to love being with a man(so long as she could feel trust, i got that part) I can't from the stand point of the real word see her turn to her son for sex.

Not without the need for some serious counselling.

Now about the threesome part. I have only one experience dealing with this in real life but from that I have taken away one nugget of knowledge. Jealousy is a green eyed son of a bitch!

The mom (see above metal stability) probably would not be able to handle seeing someone who looks so much like her dead husband in bed with another woman. No matter how much she might like to be in bed with that same woman.

Plus there is always the possibility that her 'friend with benefits' might not be into men what so ever. Might want to skin her alive if she ever found out that her 'lover' let the son watch.

I know from what I have read that, as you put it, your a 'break the ice, one and done' writer when it comes to story sequels. This one does have the potential for one to be wrote, but I think it would be more a story where their whole, want to be maybe, love triangle (with the potential for a love square if his F.W.B got into it as well) would implode! Rather quickly.

Reality and fantasy are what they are. Most of our stories are 'fantastic reality' were impossible things happen. Were all women will come out their clothes at the drop of a hat or after the first taste of a single beer. Were all men are always able to be hard no matter who they are with. We read the fantasy because the reality is what we live with every day.

Well enough ramblings from a SCA pirate.
I blame the rum I'm drinking, but then I always do.

M.S.Tarot

 

[MSTarot]

Now even if she had the greatest of life with the husband, and she came to love being with a man(so long as she could feel trust, i got that part) I can't from the stand point of the real word see her turn to her son for sex.



M.S.Tarot

Sorry... 'real world' i can't spell check for shit tonight.

Did i mention the rum?

M.S.Tarot