Fighting for your Sub??

[JMohegan]

Sup j-Mo.

Every dom runs into this kind of thing from time to time. You can't let it rattle you. Factor it into your assessment, make a note of mental payback and move on.

I was just thinking about domination the other day. In the online bdsm community where we sort of hash out the mores of bdsm society in an organic grassroots way, there's a meme that "a Dom is someone who claims that he can dominate everyone he comes across" and this gets mixed up with silly talk of alpha males and such.

I style myself a dom, but I don't pretend that I'm at the top of society's manipulation and power hierarchy. I'm somewhere down in the middle. I can bend some to my will, and others can bend me to theirs.

What makes me a dom is that, psychosexually I'm looking DOWN the primate hierarchy chain, not up. I get my jollies pushing around those beneath me. That's it.

Helluvan ass in your av, Rosco.

And a refreshing appraisal of D wiring, I must say.

 

[Primalex]

Good or bad thoughts are welcomed.

I never did set up specific tests to make sure that my possible future partner is the right match. I always assumed that (more or less) time will tell automatically.

If you test if they are dominant enough, why not if they are honest enough and put a wallet on the street? Then of course, if you are going monogamous, the classical "hire a beautiful girl to check if he would cheat on you" test. Basically, you could come up with a test for everything that is important for you (or that you believe is important).

It does feel inconsistent to test only one particular trait.

 

[xssve]

Oh it's a very common and enticing dynamic, the whole corruption of innocence theme, it's the fantasy of every man at some point to entice some innocent young thing and introduce her to the joys of human sexuality - "pornface" as we call it in art, is basically that wide eyed, deer-caught-in-the-headlights look that's so ubiquitous in porn that you'll be criticized for it in art.

For most it's a stage, depends upon age, but some guys like nothing but, and some of those wreak a lot o havoc doing so, leaving a trail of impregnated girls, or some other kind of complications, so acting out the innocent while having something behind those wide eyes is definitely the sort of thing I can understand, I can see whats in it for me, and for you, it might be reliving the experience of seduction.

Sex is such an interesting subject because it's such a big fucking deal, and at the same time a thing that once you're married or whatever can become so routine you can do it while drinking beer and watching tv - so much of human sexuality revolves around trying to "keep that feeling alive", and not just kink, but people make good livings as marriage counselors, and whatnot, just giving advice to people on how to keep it fresh, there's the whole born again virgin thing that Christians do, etc., women even have surgery to have their virginity "restored".

But really, its just that feeling of discovery that we really want to experience again, it what drives people to withdrawl form contact as much as it drives them to greater and greater extremes - if you can recognize this an manage it, whatever you can to do maintain that level of interest and enthusiasm is all good, assuming it's not some kind of bait and switch.

The converse is true as well, some guys run screaming from innocence, it's nothing but trouble and complications, but bait and switch can cut both ways too, I've been caught myself by chicks pretending to be more experienced than they are, and all things being equal, playing the mentor, so to speak means I'm probably going to make fewer assumptions, and take things one step at a time, rather than going straight for the edge to try to awaken some enthusiasm in some jaded slut - as I say, that can backfire, women can be a little crazy that way sometimes, they're bored to tears by the same ol' same 'ol, but freak out if you do anything else.

A big part of that is that women are typically judged more harshly for departures from whatever model of feminine behavior might be applicable, and that cuts both ways too - a man can tell his buddies about any crazy shit he did friday night as long as it doesn't involve anything gay, it;s jsut a good story, whereas if a woman goes around talking about banging the high school football team, it's gonna get around and she could endure a lifetime of public disapproval for one night of adventure.

On the other hand, if you tell somebody you're a Thirty year old virgin, unless they're some kind of religious nut they're gonna shake their heads at best if not laugh at you outright.

All in all, it's made me a bit more sensitive to kinesthetic and verbal cues, and I'll often start with some verbal probes at the risk of being thought lewd or obnoxious, in the end I think it's about how well you can communicate your true expectations without necessarily drawing a picture or giving a speech about it.

It's usually about the eyes in my experience, although breathing patterns can tell you lot - i.e., does she stop breathing a freeze up when you run your finger down the crack of her ass, or does she softly sigh?

 

[Stella_Omega]

I never did set up specific tests to make sure that my possible future partner is the right match. I always assumed that (more or less) time will tell automatically.

If you test if they are dominant enough, why not if they are honest enough and put a wallet on the street? Then of course, if you are going monogamous, the classical "hire a beautiful girl to check if he would cheat on you" test. Basically, you could come up with a test for everything that is important for you (or that you believe is important).

It does feel inconsistent to test only one particular trait.

Well it's just that trait that we are talking about right now.

 

[Netzach]

Sup j-Mo.


I was just thinking about domination the other day. In the online bdsm community where we sort of hash out the mores of bdsm society in an organic grassroots way, there's a meme that "a Dom is someone who claims that he can dominate everyone he comes across" and this gets mixed up with silly talk of alpha males and such.

I style myself a dom, but I don't pretend that I'm at the top of society's manipulation and power hierarchy. I'm somewhere down in the middle. I can bend some to my will, and others can bend me to theirs.

What makes me a dom is that, psychosexually I'm looking DOWN the primate hierarchy chain, not up. I get my jollies pushing around those beneath me. That's it.

This. But I think I've been pretty clear about how I feel about conflating private and public hierarchies.

 

[Netzach]

It's usually about the eyes in my experience, although breathing patterns can tell you lot - i.e., does she stop breathing a freeze up when you run your finger down the crack of her ass, or does she softly sigh?

I can't begin to tell you how many times I have been "tested" in these ways, being a person in the SM community who has girlparts.

Men. Women. People of BDSM. Stop fucking pushing on my wrists and listen to me.

When I sigh and relax it meant I WAS into you before you started doing all those little sexual aggro pinchy things because I'm CLEARLY giving you "submissive signals" in your rich fantasy life. It meant I was enjoying myself thinking "ah someone kinky who isn't stupid enough to think that I have not read all the same 'how to tell if she's REALLY submissive/receptive/into you' bargain basement PUA mindgame leaflet stuff."

We ALL need to learn to use our words.

I've had a lot of terrific girl sub people who do actually freeze up and get shy if you're touching them. I personally LIKE the crack of my ass touched, and will sigh, but with me it's a precursor for face-goes-where?

To me, there's no way around the need to grow the fuck up and USE WORDS. To have those clinical, boring, sexy buzzkilling conversations about condoms and desires, and expectations, and limits. If a person I am interested in is not adult enough to manage this, I eliminate - I do not have the wherewithal for people who can't at least decide where they are at on a given day and tell me.

 

[Stella_Omega]

We will assume xssve means "someone he's already gotten consent from in the first place."

I'm almost sure he does.

 

[Kojote]

I sure would love to put up only with people like Netzach every single remaining day of my life.
Would relieve some of the stress start those conversations and keep them going to coax every single bit of the first information from people who aren't confident enough to talk about the serious stuff. Not limited to kinky or even sexual things.

But in reality those Netzachs (or Stellas, or Keroins... I good go on from here) are scarce out here.
In reality I just have to make assumptions and act upon them and use the things I learned about body language every day to push through the usual barriers.

In my book the world would be perfect (at least this part of it) if people could just be open and clear and mostly honest. But there seems to be a memorized answer or reaction to most things. The usual masquerade thing.
And if I'd turn my back to those people, I would be pretty lonely.

So I'm content with putting up with some maneuvering.
I’m almost happy to encounter somebody who is willing to ‘test’ me in some way. For that tells me a lot about that person and more often than not turns out to indicate somebody who will finally participate in the talking.

Hmm… When I look at that it sounds pretty sad…
But to be honest sometimes it is quite funny with somebody who also can read signs and use her head.
Then all this stuff becomes a pretty challenging and exciting game.
So this mirror seems to have two faces…

 

[xssve]

True, they're not all ball bustin' klaxon butch bitches - usually, you have to get women a little drunk to get them to open up about such things verbally, and my experiences with drinking and sex are mostly negative, and the good ones I don't remember.

I think they do with their girlfriends, but not so much with guys, unless you tease them a lot, at which point they will often come clean in self defense.

And here, we are specifically dealing with a very much explicitly non-verbal dynamic, re: the OP - ASE play: that's CASE without the C.

i.e., sighing and relaxing into you, instead of stiffening and pulling away, merely signals you can go to the next thing, whatever it is - slap that ass, and maybe she jumps on you, maybe she slaps back and calls 911, never can tell.

Personally, I don't do ASE play period, unless there has been some prior discussion about expectations, romance be damned, that's the C part - which means the wallflowers and romance fetishists just out of luck. Me too maybe, but so be it, if there's no prior arrangement, I'm going by the book.

When it comes to non-verbal cues, staring at my crotch while drooling is much less ambiguous.

 

[xssve]

And don't get me wrong, I'm much more comfortable with brazen broads than your mousier types, often to my sorrow - but I'm a big Mae West fan from way back. Guess it would have to be from way back, huh?

 

[Kojote]

True, they're not all ball bustin' klaxon butch bitches - usually, you have to get women a little drunk to get them to open up about such things verbally, and my experiences with drinking and sex are mostly negative, and the good ones I don't remember.

I think they do with their girlfriends, but not so much with guys, unless you tease them a lot, at which point they will often come clean in self defense.

Uhm... Okay. That's not what I experienced.
Not even way back, when I was much younger.
They talked to me pretty open and pretty much about everything from the beginning. That may be my (sometimes misleadingly) friendly face. But it's also the way I'm just able to listen und... well... don't judge immediately.
There was actually a time in my life when I ONLY got the talking and never got laid. ‘Dear Abby’ stuff, if you know what I mean.

In my case I had to get them a little drunk to consider doing more than talking with me. And in this we agree: bad experiences regarding alcohol and sex.

It’s perfectly possible to do ‘girls talk’ as a man with a woman. You have to forget your prejudice and fucking listen, but there’s no problem in that.
Things get weird, when the actual flirting starts. And that’s what I meant.

You can have a perfectly reasonable woman acting unreasonable even in her own mind when getting into somebody because of expectations and experiences and some bullshit she picked up about how to deal with somebody who might be ‘the one’.
They almost go on autopilot and stop thinking sometimes. Which leads to me taking over the wheel and preventing a crash.
And I don’t fucking like doing all of the work because of stupidity and non-scrutinized behavior patterns picked up somewhere on the way.

I like women who are direct and upfront and preferably honest with their things and what gets them going and what does not. And I like women who know the trade and can start playing the game even in the middle of a completely technical discussion, if the spark fires.
But I like playing that game with my brain and not with recited phrases and along the lines of ‘if you happen to not end up dark haired and looking like my first boyfriend at the end of this conversation you’re out’.
I like to play ‘cat and cat’ instead of ‘cat and mouse’ (most of the time). But ‘cat and brainless reciting automaton sticking to some fucking childhood rules and secretly hoping to get freed from these without putting any own effort into it’ is off the book for me.
Really.

So - regarding the OP - it comes down to: If that reluctance and blank stare happen in the right situation I might be in. Otherwise I’m most likely out.
But ever so likely I wouldn’t have gotten into a situation to provoke that reaction from her, if we weren’t playing the same game.
So I’m most likely in…

Does that make any sense?

 

[Stella_Omega]

I've been learning to get women to talk. Maybe being female myself is an asset there... But even monosyllables are good; questions like;
"do you like that?"
Want more?
"Tell me when to stop"
"Want me to stop?"
Might get a grunt of assent or negation...

 

[Kojote]

I've been learning to get women to talk. Maybe being female myself is an asset there... But even monosyllables are good;

I do know what you mean.
And I'm okay with that, IF some kind of communication talkes place.
But some people simply refuse to give honest answers - even body lingual (does that exist?) - out of habit. You can see that the reaction is not right. Sometimes you can even tell the true answer. But the only thing you get is:
*shrugs* "Nothing..."

I simply don't like that anymore. Actually... I hate that.

 

[Netzach]

I like to play ‘cat and cat’ instead of ‘cat and mouse’ (most of the time). But ‘cat and brainless reciting automaton sticking to some fucking childhood rules and secretly hoping to get freed from these without putting any own effort into it’ is off the book for me.
Really.

Brilliantly said. This. And it's not just the ladies.

 

[Kojote]

Brilliantly said. This. And it's not just the ladies.

I tend to give the males credit for their crippled chromosome thingy.

And not trying to combine the sexual and friendship areas does help, too.
Ah.. Wait. Make that ‘not trying to have’, for I’m mostly uninterested in most men either way.
We’re dorks.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I do know what you mean.
And I'm okay with that, IF some kind of communication talkes place.
But some people simply refuse to give honest answers - even body lingual (does that exist?) - out of habit. You can see that the reaction is not right. Sometimes you can even tell the true answer. But the only thing you get is:
*shrugs* "Nothing..."

I simply don't like that anymore. Actually... I hate that.

yeah, I know what you mean.

And-- I used to do that myself. My self for some reason, was the only thing I owned-- even though that was not true. Also what was going on in my head was always so shocking (as I imagined) to my partner, I just didn't want to share. Once I came into SM my reactions became more honest. And as I became more and more of a top, and realised how satisfying those reactions are to the top-- I became more and more willing to give them to whoever was being so kind as to give me something to react to.

I don't know what the answer is. I don't partner up with people like that anymore.

 

[JMohegan]

I like to play ‘cat and cat’ instead of ‘cat and mouse’ (most of the time). But ‘cat and brainless reciting automaton sticking to some fucking childhood rules and secretly hoping to get freed from these without putting any own effort into it’ is off the book for me.
Really.

Brilliantly said. This. And it's not just the ladies.

Must people use incomprehensible metaphors for every damn thing?

[/frustrated outburst]

Obviously, that was a rhetorical question.


It doesn't matter to me if someone's shy, inexperienced, hampered by childhood rules, worried about my reaction, whatever. I get off on pushing through limits anyway. Learning to speak comfortably about sex can be just one of those things.

I only have two rules for communication in a relationship.

1 - It better be genuine. (No lying, no feigning, no games.)

2 - I don't care if it takes half an hour, multiple hours, or even days for you to answer my question. But when it comes out, you better be talking straight. Save the flowery metaphorical allegorical poetic or any other figurative language for someone who knows what it means.

 

[Salenku]

Uhm... Okay. That's not what I experienced.
Not even way back, when I was much younger.
They talked to me pretty open and pretty much about everything from the beginning. That may be my (sometimes misleadingly) friendly face. But it's also the way I'm just able to listen und... well... don't judge immediately.
There was actually a time in my life when I ONLY got the talking and never got laid. ‘Dear Abby’ stuff, if you know what I mean.

In my case I had to get them a little drunk to consider doing more than talking with me. And in this we agree: bad experiences regarding alcohol and sex.

It’s perfectly possible to do ‘girls talk’ as a man with a woman. You have to forget your prejudice and fucking listen, but there’s no problem in that.
Things get weird, when the actual flirting starts. And that’s what I meant.

You can have a perfectly reasonable woman acting unreasonable even in her own mind when getting into somebody because of expectations and experiences and some bullshit she picked up about how to deal with somebody who might be ‘the one’.
They almost go on autopilot and stop thinking sometimes. Which leads to me taking over the wheel and preventing a crash.
And I don’t fucking like doing all of the work because of stupidity and non-scrutinized behavior patterns picked up somewhere on the way.

I like women who are direct and upfront and preferably honest with their things and what gets them going and what does not. And I like women who know the trade and can start playing the game even in the middle of a completely technical discussion, if the spark fires.
But I like playing that game with my brain and not with recited phrases and along the lines of ‘if you happen to not end up dark haired and looking like my first boyfriend at the end of this conversation you’re out’.
I like to play ‘cat and cat’ instead of ‘cat and mouse’ (most of the time). But ‘cat and brainless reciting automaton sticking to some fucking childhood rules and secretly hoping to get freed from these without putting any own effort into it’ is off the book for me.
Really.

So - regarding the OP - it comes down to: If that reluctance and blank stare happen in the right situation I might be in. Otherwise I’m most likely out.
But ever so likely I wouldn’t have gotten into a situation to provoke that reaction from her, if we weren’t playing the same game.
So I’m most likely in…

Does that make any sense?

Oh, if you moved to London... You seem like the PERFECT date for most women!

 

[Kojote]

Also what was going on in my head was always so shocking (as I imagined) to my partner, I just didn't want to share. Once I came into SM my reactions became more honest. And as I became more and more of a top, and realised how satisfying those reactions are to the top-- I became more and more willing to give them to whoever was being so kind as to give me something to react to.

Uh-huh!
I don't know if it has to do with getting into BDSM lately, but I witnessed opening up considerably about almost any topic. Especially sexual ones.
So much that I pretty much like the sometimes shocked reactions of people who don't know me when I start talking about such things with friends as if it where about taste in beer or something.
Almost all of them react very well to this kind of open and direct conversation. Hell... Even the people at the next table mostly react very well and pretty much interested. That's fun.
But the best of it is that they give back. And shame isn't in my book anymore. So I don't let them feel that way.
I really like this voyage!

Must people use incomprehensible metaphors for every damn thing?

[/frustrated outburst]

So sorry...
Look... A cat is that thing you'll never come close to understand as we learned recently. And a mouse is something said cat really likes to play with. Sometimes more than with another cat (which is very telling about thos beasts...)
Said automaton is something even you couldn't stand to put up with for long...

1 - It better be genuine. (No lying, no feigning, no games.)

I'm with you here!
That's part of my point, too. Games are fine for me though. 'Genuine' is the important word for me.
I'll gladly put up with somebody who wants but can't. The people who can and just don't want (on their own) are the ones freaking me out.
(Less metaphorical. Better?)

Oh, if you moved to London... You seem like the PERFECT date for most women!

You’d better be kidding me. Or I’ll seriously consider getting somebody to watch out for you, because you are NOT GOOD in picking men.
I’m the biggest dork of all. And it doesn’t get any better with me knowing that.

 

[JMohegan]

So sorry...
Look... A cat is that thing you'll never come close to understand as we learned recently. And a mouse is something said cat really likes to play with. Sometimes more than with another cat (which is very telling about thos beasts...)
Said automaton is something even you couldn't stand to put up with for long...

Sincere thanks for trying to explain.

I've seen a cat torture its prey. I take cat and mouse as a clear reference to no-mercy, cuddle-free S/m.

Cat on cat makes no sense to me. I've never seen two interact with each other.

Automaton I got; I'm reasonably good with vocabulary. And for those times when I come up lacking, I've mastered the dictionary.

 

[JMohegan]

I'm with you here!
That's part of my point, too. Games are fine for me though. 'Genuine' is the important word for me.
I'll gladly put up with somebody who wants but can't. The people who can and just don't want (on their own) are the ones freaking me out.
(Less metaphorical. Better?)

Yes! Thanks.

The bold is me, precisely. (Though I don't really ever take "can't" as the final answer.)

 

[Kojote]

Sincere thanks for trying to explain.

I've seen a cat torture its prey. I take cat and mouse as a clear reference to no-mercy, cuddle-free S/m.

Cat on cat makes no sense to me. I've never seen two interact with each other.

Automaton I got; I'm reasonably good with vocabulary. And for those times when I come up lacking, I've mastered the dictionary.

I chose cat for we have those cats in season right beneath the friggin window of the bedroom every couple of weeks and the are much more vocal about searching a fuck than any other animal I ever personally witnessed (And about doing it, by the way.) And they are known to be playful.
And because of the cat (having fun playing) and mouse (having at least a little less fun with that) allegory.
But thing is: I'm the one with the lacking vocabulary. And sometimes my thoughts are to strange even for my three dictionaries...

Yes! Thanks.

The bold is me, precisely. (Though I don't really ever take "can't" as the final answer.)

Never encountered those people who... dunno... just have to grow up a little more before they can... put up with you?
Mrm... That sounds awfully arrogant, but it is the way it feels...

 

[JMohegan]

I chose cat for we have those cats in season right beneath the friggin window of the bedroom every couple of weeks and the are much more vocal about searching a fuck than any other animal I ever personally witnessed (And about doing it, by the way.) And they are known to be playful.
And because of the cat (having fun playing) and mouse (having at least a little less fun with that) allegory.
But thing is: I'm the one with the lacking vocabulary. And sometimes my thoughts are to strange even for my three dictionaries...

My German vocab's four, maybe five words, tops. No contest here.

Never encountered those people who... dunno... just have to grow up a little more before they can... put up with you?
Mrm... That sounds awfully arrogant, but it is the way it feels...

Sure, but they get weeded out in the early stages of dating.

 

[intothewoods]

Sincere thanks for trying to explain.

I've seen a cat torture its prey. I take cat and mouse as a clear reference to no-mercy, cuddle-free S/m.

Cat on cat makes no sense to me. I've never seen two interact with each other.

Automaton I got; I'm reasonably good with vocabulary. And for those times when I come up lacking, I've mastered the dictionary.

Well, ok, then just prepare for a whole lotta awesome, Mister.

 

[JMohegan]

Well, ok, then just prepare for a whole lotta awesome, Mister.

That looks like normal kid carnivore behavior to me.

I have to say, it was refreshing to see a cat video where the point was *not* to make the animal look ridiculous by wearing an idiotic costume, bashing into the wall, or making futile leaps or something. But then the photographer started snickering! Not sure why, but it was a refreshing link regardless.