Language differences

[lazyhobo]

Okay so, I as a Volunteer Editor have a question.

While editing a story for someone, they used a phrase right at the end "half-mast". Now I had no idea what this word meant, and had to go find out. In American related uses, it generally depicts a flag / flag pole. Regardless, the author used a phrase that isn't generally popular or used in my particular region. I did mention that to the author but here's my question;

If I come across language, words or phrases that seem to be unused, unheard of or even different in different regions, should I mention it to the author, that not everyone will know what it means?

My biggest example, would be Author Charles Petersunn.

This is one of my favorite authors, but I noticed when reading his work, that he commonly uses the phrase "Fanny". Now I'm assuming that this author is American, because as I was reading, I was thoroughly confused, he used the word / phrase, but what I read and what I knew the word meant were two different things, thus I had to find out.

To Americans, Fanny is a term to refer to ones Rear End (Buttocks)
But to an Englishman like me, it refers to Female Genitalia (Vagina)

Now, it didn't take me long to figure that out based on his descriptions, but in the case that an Author uses a phrase that may likely be misunderstood from certain regions, Europe for example, Should I at the very least warn him? and if so, what would I say / suggest?

 

[sr71plt]

Yes, I put an ed. note in on possible misunderstanding when I encounter these in editing--and then let the author decide what he/she wants to do about it. Regarding Briticisms on Lit., the British authors may decide to stick with their own voice, which is fine, as long as they understand that most of the readers of Lit. are Americans. They certainly don't have to render everything in American, but they have to realize that Americans can be very insular and not take variations in language within the English language into account. (Indian English is even more likely--much more--not to translate well to American, and not just in language use; in the whole story structure and pacing.)

For Lit., "fanny" would be a key misunderstanding word.

 

[PennLady]

I agree with sr, you should flag these, but there's always going to be some phrase people don't know, even if you think it's quite common. With my former publisher, I remember using the phrase "go to ground," and she didn't know what it meant. There was another instance, too. I think it was that I'd written something like "she paged through the magazine," and for some reason that threw my publisher. It's been a while, so perhaps I used a different phrase and she wanted me to change it to "paged through." Hmm, I'd have to look it up; at any rate, it surprised me that she didn't know the expression. It wasn't anything exotic.

 

[lazyhobo]

Its a common problem, I noted in one of those Lit written writing guides that the author said "And to you british members, Face it, Trousers arent sexy"

In reference to the word, as in, in a sexual / erotic story, Pants sound good while Trousers dont. Now I'd naturally assume americans knew the what Trousers meant, but Yah there we have it.

Well thanks for the reply, I'll stick to E/N's for the author about them then.

 

[PennLady]

Actually I think most Americans do know what "trousers" are, we just tend to use the word "pants," sometimes "slacks" when talking about womens' pants. But it doesn't hurt to point stuff out.

Or perhaps I've just watched enough British TV shows to know some of these differences.

 

[sr71plt]

I don't have a problem with "trousers." I differentiate with my characters. If he's not young and/or is wealthy and an expensive dresser, I'll give him trousers. If he's young and not-so-wealthy, I give him pants. If he's cruising I give him jeans if he's wearing long pants.

 

[oggbashan]

As a British writer, I try to avoid words and phrases that are understood differently in US and British English - unless I am trying to demonstrate that I am British!

Although the majority of readers may be US-based, there are a vast number who are neither US nor British. For some of them English could be a second or third language. Whether they have learned US or British English, use of complicated constructions or obscure words could make it difficult for them to understand the author's intended meaning.

I try to keep a balance between over-simplifying, being too obviously British, and writing the story I want to write. I hope that most of my work appears mid-Atlantic, neither US nor British but a compromise between the two.

But to achieve that I have to know what the US and UK meanings are, and where they differ, before choosing words that have the same meaning in both countries. I have several Oxford Dictionaries, a two volume Funk and Wagnalls and a Webster, but I still have to know that confusion is possible before reaching for an appropriate dictionary.

When in doubt, I will use the US version as it is more generally understood, even by Brits. But my spelling? Always British!

 

[sr71plt]

For your purposes, to get at American idioms better, the American Heritage dictionary is more useful than the Webster's. The AH is a prescriptive dictionary (helping you to understand why it is); Webster's is a descriptive dictionary (just telling you what it is).

(Having lived pretty much all over the world, I think folks are functioning with American English out there in the netherlands much more than with British English. That's just the way it is, I think.)

 

[elfin_odalisque]

(Having lived pretty much all over the world, I think folks are functioning with American English out there in the netherlands much more than with British English. That's just the way it is, I think.)

Well, no, actually. I've found there is a strange variant of British English that predominates in continental Europe that us Americans have labelled 'Eurospeak'.

US series get shown on TV but with the subtitles, the nuance of the American gets lost.

 

[PennLady]

(Having lived pretty much all over the world, I think folks are functioning with American English out there in the netherlands much more than with British English. That's just the way it is, I think.)

That's interesting. In my experience --far more limited than yours -- people who learn English as a second language outside of the US tend to speak British English. But I'm sure there's a wide range.

 

[lazyhobo]

That's interesting. In my experience --far more limited than yours -- people who learn English as a second language outside of the US tend to speak British English. But I'm sure there's a wide range.

Well, depends in what environment they've learned it in, if they are anywhere near a computer where the spellchecker is defaulted to US English, then they may grow more accustomed to that.

 

[sr71plt]

That's interesting. In my experience --far more limited than yours -- people who learn English as a second language outside of the US tend to speak British English. But I'm sure there's a wide range.

In some former English colonies, yes (I found this so in Cyprus--I even left there speaking more or less British English, and my children certainly did). But not elsewhere, where American English is the language of international business (even though companies love for their CEOs to speak British English). In Japan when I was there, anyone who would tutor in American English got top yen. I rarely learned much of the local language wherever I lived. Everyone wanted to practice their American English.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Well, depends in what environment they've learned it in, if they are anywhere near a computer where the spellchecker is defaulted to US English, then they may grow more accustomed to that.

IME it's less about spellcheckers than exposure via media. In Australia at least, we get a LOT of US TV; you're unlikely to hear an Australian say "I'll put that suitcase in the trunk", but they'd have no difficulty understanding it.

It depends a lot on history too. Countries like Japan and the Philippines have a lot of history with US military occupation, and they lean towards US English as a result. But India has ~ 125 million English speakers, and their English is closer to British English, though with a lot of distinctive elements of its own.

 

[lazyhobo]

IME it's less about spellcheckers than exposure via media. In Australia at least, we get a LOT of US TV; you're unlikely to hear an Australian say "I'll put that suitcase in the trunk", but they'd have no difficulty understanding it.

It depends a lot on history too. Countries like Japan and the Philippines have a lot of history with US military occupation, and they lean towards US English as a result. But India has ~ 125 million English speakers, and their English is closer to British English, though with a lot of distinctive elements of its own.

I said, Its dependant on their Environment!! I merely used Spellcheckers as an example for one that was around computers and I even said they -MAY-.

 

[oggbashan]

My wife used to teach English as a foreign language. My daughter teaches children whose native language is not English.

For both of them, the English they were asked to teach depended on the student's requirement. If the student intended to work for a US-owned or US-based organisation, then they wanted to learn US English. If they wanted to work for a British company they wanted to learn British English BUT they also wanted to be able to understand and communicate in US English as well.

TV and the internet have made it much easier for people to understand both versions of English and use them interchangeably. Sixty years ago US English was appreciated in England only at the cinema and was a considerable contrast to the cut-glass accents of the BBC announcers of the day.

One couldn't imagine Alvar Liddell imitating James Cagney's "You dirty rat!", but modern TV anchors could do it with ease.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Okay so, I as a Volunteer Editor have a question.

While editing a story for someone, they used a phrase right at the end "half-mast". Now I had no idea what this word meant, and had to go find out. In American related uses, it generally depicts a flag / flag pole. Regardless, the author used a phrase that isn't generally popular or used in my particular region. I did mention that to the author but here's my question;

If I come across language, words or phrases that seem to be unused, unheard of or even different in different regions, should I mention it to the author, that not everyone will know what it means?

My biggest example, would be Author Charles Petersunn.

This is one of my favorite authors, but I noticed when reading his work, that he commonly uses the phrase "Fanny". Now I'm assuming that this author is American, because as I was reading, I was thoroughly confused, he used the word / phrase, but what I read and what I knew the word meant were two different things, thus I had to find out.

To Americans, Fanny is a term to refer to ones Rear End (Buttocks)
But to an Englishman like me, it refers to Female Genitalia (Vagina)

Now, it didn't take me long to figure that out based on his descriptions, but in the case that an Author uses a phrase that may likely be misunderstood from certain regions, Europe for example, Should I at the very least warn him? and if so, what would I say / suggest?

half-mast is included in the Cambridge Dictionary of American English but is standard in UK English. Most UK readers would understand immediately what flags, 'trousers' or panties at half-mast meant.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Okay so, I as a Volunteer Editor have a question.

While editing a story for someone, they used a phrase right at the end "half-mast". Now I had no idea what this word meant, and had to go find out. In American related uses, it generally depicts a flag / flag pole. Regardless, the author used a phrase that isn't generally popular or used in my particular region. I did mention that to the author but here's my question;

If I come across language, words or phrases that seem to be unused, unheard of or even different in different regions, should I mention it to the author, that not everyone will know what it means?

My biggest example, would be Author Charles Petersunn.

This is one of my favorite authors, but I noticed when reading his work, that he commonly uses the phrase "Fanny". Now I'm assuming that this author is American, because as I was reading, I was thoroughly confused, he used the word / phrase, but what I read and what I knew the word meant were two different things, thus I had to find out.

To Americans, Fanny is a term to refer to ones Rear End (Buttocks)
But to an Englishman like me, it refers to Female Genitalia (Vagina)

Now, it didn't take me long to figure that out based on his descriptions, but in the case that an Author uses a phrase that may likely be misunderstood from certain regions, Europe for example, Should I at the very least warn him? and if so, what would I say / suggest?

Words do change meanings when crossing the pond.

A couple of points.

Fanny changes from back to front as you cross the atlantic and the idea of a fanny pack, in Brit English - bumbag - is a problem. The same issue arises with 'tush'.

I don't see the problem with 'half-mast'. In all Anglo-Saxon countries, the expression at half-mast means flags being flown respectfully to honor the dead. The usage to say 'his pants' or 'her panties' were at 'half-mast' is probably more English than American but certainly not a localism.

 

[lazyhobo]

half-mast is included in the Cambridge Dictionary of American English but is standard in UK English. Most UK readers would understand immediately what flags, 'trousers' or panties at half-mast meant.

Words do change meanings when crossing the pond.

A couple of points.

Fanny changes from back to front as you cross the atlantic and the idea of a fanny pack, in Brit English - bumbag - is a problem. The same issue arises with 'tush'.

I don't see the problem with 'half-mast'. In all Anglo-Saxon countries, the expression at half-mast means flags being flown respectfully to honor the dead. The usage to say 'his pants' or 'her panties' were at 'half-mast' is probably more English than American but certainly not a localism.

Okay look, I didn't mean that a lot of people don't know what Half-mast means, that's beside the point. The point was that some words or phrases have different meanings in different places. Should we mention that to an author as editors, This was not meant to be a discussion on where half-cast is well known.

Only reason I mentioned Half-cast is because I know an Author that used the phrase as a euphemism for an Erect Penis, I assumed that's what it meant, but I had to make sure. I myself had not heard the phrase before, so I had to check, thus why I mentioned it. Don't dwell on the words I mentioned. Okay?

And I certainly never said anything regarding "panties" being misunderstood, So I'm not entirely sure what brought that up.

 

[PennLady]

Okay look, I didn't mean that a lot of people don't know what Half-mast means, that's beside the point. The point was that some words or phrases have different meanings in different places. Should we mention that to an author as editors, This was not meant to be a discussion on where half-cast is well known.

FWIW, I would mention it if I was editing or beta reading for someone. I'd just note that the phrase tripped me up, and perhaps they should check it.

 

[sr71plt]

I'd mention it if I didn't understand the term (and didn't see, upon checking the dictionary or googling, that it was a fairly common term). Better to overmention than under. I'd word it as a "worth a recheck and reconfirmation," though, rather than as a "you're wrong, you idiot!" note.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

No, I agree with what Penn Lady and sr say but an expression like 'half-mast', even with its euphemisms, is surely common currency in the Anglo-Saxon world.

Panties at half-mast has a connotation that I've often seen used on Lit.

There seems to be a tendency that US Lit readers are less likely to accept anglicisms like 'knickers' or 'arse' despite the fact that most US novels are published in the UK without any vocabulary or punctuation editing.

 

[lazyhobo]

Okay, doesn't seem to me that you fully understand what I meant.

So I take your post here...

No, I agree with what Penn Lady and sr say but an expression like 'half-mast', even with its euphemisms, is surely common currency in the Anglo-Saxon world.

Panties at half-mast has a connotation that I've often seen used on Lit.

There seems to be a tendency that US Lit readers are less likely to accept anglicisms like 'knickers' or 'arse' despite the fact that most US novels are published in the UK without any vocabulary or punctuation editing.

And I raise you one post here...

Okay look, I didn't mean that a lot of people don't know what Half-mast means, that's beside the point. The point was that some words or phrases have different meanings in different places. Should we mention that to an author as editors, This was not meant to be a discussion on where half-cast is well known.

Only reason I mentioned Half-cast is because I know an Author that used the phrase as a euphemism for an Erect Penis, I assumed that's what it meant, but I had to make sure. I myself had not heard the phrase before, so I had to check, thus why I mentioned it. Don't dwell on the words I mentioned. Okay?

And I certainly never said anything regarding "panties" being misunderstood, So I'm not entirely sure what brought that up.

Now, once again. Don't think too much over my use of the phrase "half-cast" as an example, I've already said, It was a phrase that I myself had not heard before so I merely mentioned it. Now I'll also repeat this "Don't dwell on the words I mentioned. Okay?"