Are there books as erotic as my writing?

[lance gt]

So, I see more people agreeing with my opinion on how the market will accept your story, depending again on which publisher you go to and hot explicit it is.

Pilot I see is foaming at the mouth rabidly again and making incoherant ramblings again. How wonderful it must be to make statements, defend them vehemently and then contradict yourself in less than a day. A true master at hypocracy and shitfloating.

I figure if you can boast and brag about your writing, you should be able to take criticism for it as well, or are we not allowed to do that, for fear of upsetting you? I get enough unwarranted criticism from you and others and I've agreed for the most part with what was said. I'm a hack, I have no training of any kind, I don't have and never have had an editor, so I don't expect much from my stories, other than the enjoyment of writing them. So, when I get added to faved lists, I feel a small sense of pride in my acheivements. I haven't added comments or anything else, not even a link to my stories, on my sig. I don't brag.

You make posts that are more like previews to stories, than just stating a goal in writing. You can brag your ass off about some obscure reviews from who knows who and act like you're something of merit, but I'll stick with what everyone here can see and never have to worry about ambiguous ratings and stats to prove my writing abilities. Would you like to slap my writing down again, or just go on pretending you never do that sort of thing and have us cite incidents all day long. Alzheimer's pilot?

 

[PennLady]

My sister got through close to half of the first book. she said it was pretty vanilla and the "down there" which is what the woman refers to as her pussy and using the word Penis turned her off not on.

Okay, we know what you think of this but that doesn't actually answer the question of explicit the scenes are.

 

[lovecraft68]

Okay, we know what you think of this but that doesn't actually answer the question of explicit the scenes are.

When you're using penis how explicit can they be?

She said they were along a Nora Roberts level. You can figure that one out. I haven't read any Nora lately.

 

[Cruel2BKind]

When you're using penis how explicit can they be?

She said they were along a Nora Roberts level. You can figure that one out. I haven't read any Nora lately.

I haven't read any Nora ever

The way I see things, I've seen some pretty explicit sex in mainstream books, even in my high school library. As long as the sex isn't the focus of the book, they can get down and dirty with what little sex they have.

 

[sr71plt]

I haven't read any Nora ever

The way I see things, I've seen some pretty explicit sex in mainstream books, even in my high school library. As long as the sex isn't the focus of the book, they can get down and dirty with what little sex they have.

OK, but back to the thrust of the OP's question. The level of erotica at Lit. does make the sex central, doesn't it? (I guess there would be an argument on that--but I doubt there would from someone reading widely and deeply in the Lit. file and wasn't living under the illusion that it was largely literary fiction.) The question is whether erotica in the Lit. vein is available. I said/say, yes, from Amazon.com, but, in the mainstream, not all that much.

 

[lovecraft68]

OK, but back to the thrust of the OP's question. The level of erotica at Lit. does make the sex central, doesn't it? (I guess there would be an argument on that--but I doubt there would from someone reading widely and deeply in the Lit. file and wasn't living under the illusion that it was largely literary fiction.) The question is whether erotica in the Lit. vein is available. I said/say, yes, from Amazon.com, but, in the mainstream, not all that much.

This is along the same lines of incest being allowed in fiction ala Flowers in the attic as the sex is not "glorified" so to speak or the entire premise of the story.

Same with rape, its a common plot device in fiction, but frowned upon if it is the focus of the entire story.

But I would like to see what the difference would be. Is it the sheer amount of the sex? I've read some pretty hardcore stuff in works of fiction.

I once read a crappy horror novel called The Devil's kiss and let me tell you it could rival a trip through lit on any given day, so not sure where they determine what is and is not too much,

 

[lance gt]

OK, but back to the thrust of the OP's question. The level of erotica at Lit. does make the sex central, doesn't it? (I guess there would be an argument on that--but I doubt there would from someone reading widely and deeply in the Lit. file and wasn't living under the illusion that it was largely literary fiction.) The question is whether erotica in the Lit. vein is available. I said/say, yes, from Amazon.com, but, in the mainstream, not all that much.

As I said, it is making its way into mainstream, slowly but surely and publishers are looking at the reader polls with more interest and changing their attitude towards what's acceptable and whats not.
An erotic story, is the same as an erotic movie, as porn writing is to porn movies. It's quite evident that in one, the sex is an intragal part of the story and in the other, it is the story. A publisher knows a good story that will sell and if the sex is explicit and doesn't hurt the sales, would they really turn away those possible sales and subsequent ones as well? Writers in the same vein going to the competition and claiming a near monopoly over them, just isn't going to happen. If there's one thing that is abundantly clear in any media, sex sells, period.
All it takes is the right cross-over story that makes it in mainstream and that's all she wrote, so to speak.

 

[sr71plt]

This is along the same lines of incest being allowed in fiction ala Flowers in the attic as the sex is not "glorified" so to speak or the entire premise of the story.

Same with rape, its a common plot device in fiction, but frowned upon if it is the focus of the entire story.

But I would like to see what the difference would be. Is it the sheer amount of the sex? I've read some pretty hardcore stuff in works of fiction.

I once read a crappy horror novel called The Devil's kiss and let me tell you it could rival a trip through lit on any given day, so not sure where they determine what is and is not too much,

Yes, it's sort of ironic that there are themes you can get published in the mainstream that you can't even whisper on erotica story sites. But it's mostly in the readers attracted, I guess.

 

[BONNIEBREA]

The erotic that is on this site, especially mine, are there such books as graphic and full on as our writing? Would I ever be able to get such work published or is it just too full on?

Thanks

I think I'm similar in this respect to SR71. I've never really sat down at a keyboard to write 'erotica' (and I'm sure it would be difficult to pin down just what 'erotica' means, anyway). I enjoy writing stories that explore themes and aspects of adult sexuality. I would have a very difficult time writing these stories if the sexual interactions had to be tamed for a mainstream publisher. I just look at what I write as relatively standard literary stories (to the extent that settings, characters and their histories, attitudes, values, motivations and reactions, and the like are as genuine and real-world as possible), but ones that don't shy away from or euphemize the sexual interactions.

That being the case there is no option to publish my stories (except self-pubbing) because my stories aren't 'about' anything and can't be simplistically categorized. 'Erotica' publishers aren't looking for, and apparently have no idea what to do with, stories that are literary in nature. They want 'gay male stories', or 'shapeshifting lesbian vampire stories', or 'bondage stories' so they can add, when necessary, to their gay male e-bin, shapeshifting lesbian vampire e-bin, or bondage e-bin.

So quality literary prose that includes explicit sexuality isn't going to find a mainstream publisher because of the 'explicit sexuality' part or an 'erotica' publisher because of the 'quality literary' part.

 

[Bramblethorn]

The way I see things, I've seen some pretty explicit sex in mainstream books, even in my high school library. As long as the sex isn't the focus of the book, they can get down and dirty with what little sex they have.

True dat. I remember "Clan of the Cave Bear" and sequels had some pretty graphic sex in among hundreds of pages about flint knapping and Ayla inventing calendars/spear-throwers/movable type.

Until I checked just now, I had no idea that Anne Rice's "Sleeping Beauty" series (wall-to-wall explicit BDSM, published under a pseudonym) had sold better than "Interview With The Vampire". I'd always thought of it as a relatively minor part of her work - maybe that says something about the visibility of successful erotica compared to other genres? But I doubt it'd make it into a high school library

 

[Stella_Omega]

So quality literary prose that includes explicit sexuality isn't going to find a mainstream publisher because of the 'explicit sexuality' part or an 'erotica' publisher because of the 'quality literary' part.

What is "quality literary" exactly?

 

[mynameisben]

What is "quality literary" exactly?

Noun verb noun. Noun verb noun. With the occasional gerundial clause to keep 'em guessing!

 

[sr71plt]

I would think a lot of adjectives too--strung together.

 

[sr71plt]

"Quality" is a neutral noun, by the way. You really need to give it a modifier that does all of the work of determining whether you are talking good or bad.

 

[desertslave]

Smashwords will publish anything. Especially after rubbing paypal's nose in shit after their censorship attempt.

I just had to repeat this because it makes me happy to read it.

As an artist and Ebay refugee, I've had issues with PP for years. I love it when someone else wins against them!

I do remember seeing Coming to Power at mainstream bookstores (B&N and Borders) several years ago. I was quite happily stunned.

I've also seen some series called "Black Lace" which claims to be erotica and I think is a sub-genre from Harlequin.

Of course, there's always the question of "good" and how this stuff compares to what we have here.

 

[Cruel2BKind]

True dat. I remember "Clan of the Cave Bear" and sequels had some pretty graphic sex in among hundreds of pages about flint knapping and Ayla inventing calendars/spear-throwers/movable type.

Until I checked just now, I had no idea that Anne Rice's "Sleeping Beauty" series (wall-to-wall explicit BDSM, published under a pseudonym) had sold better than "Interview With The Vampire". I'd always thought of it as a relatively minor part of her work - maybe that says something about the visibility of successful erotica compared to other genres? But I doubt it'd make it into a high school library

Have the entire series. In my opinion? They get worse and worse as the sex becomes more frequent. Here's the list from best to worst. (Which incidentally, is the order in which they were written)

Clan of the cave bear= frank discussion of how primitive people believed that sex and conception were not related. A few chapters of brutal rape of a ten-year-old homo sapiens girl by a Neanderthal.

Valley of the horses= Ayla largely alone for three years, Jondalar being a stone-cold pimp through the stone age, fucking his way across primitive Europe. Taking virgins and names and being a blonde blue-eyed hairy Jesus. (never liked him much) Teaches Ayla about sex. Remember this sex scene, because it will be copy-pasted and planted in each book at least fifty times.

The Mammoth Hunters= Jondalar and Ayla are an item, traveling back to his hometown. They get delayed and adopted by a nearby tribe, which includes Ayla's first taste of dark chocolate. Hairy Jesus gets jealous, and Ayla doesn't know what the fuck is going on. Because she is she-Jesus in everything except relationships. She goes between the two men like a tennis ball before finally choosing Hairy Jesus. Because who doesn't prefer a jealous crybaby over the man who would have loved her and supported her for her entire life without ever commenting on her idiosyncrasies?

Plains of Passage= Ayla finally manages to convince Hairy Jesus that SEX MAKES BABIES! But nobody believes her. They travel through primeval Europe, taking an entire book to do what Jondalar did in less than a third of one. Part of the reason it takes so long is because they have to copy-paste the shocked reactions of the villagers almost as many times as they have to copy-paste the sex.

Shelters of stone= They finally settle down. Everybody loves Ayla, thinks she's sexy as balls and wants to bone her silly. Hairy Jesus is jealous, and they bone like bunnies that know the world is going to end. Ayla discovers a white vagina-cave (I wish I was making this up) and everybody thinks that she's a donii/god. She gets married, knocked up, and everybody in the nine caves thinks that she's a priestess, but all she wants to do is have sex and babies. The end of the book is literally some voodoo bullshit that makes another priestess 'foretell' that Ayla is going to be the BEST JESUS EVAR.


I have no idea why I like these books. It's a good premise, dragged down by SO much repetition and bad sex.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Have the entire series. In my opinion? They get worse and worse as the sex becomes more frequent. Here's the list from best to worst. (Which incidentally, is the order in which they were written)

Yeah, that's spot-on for the ones I've read. Pathetic admission: when I was a teenager, I actually read and re-read the first three books for the sex scenes. Because it was the only smut I had access to, at least until I discovered where my parents had hidden "Portnoy's Complaint", which wasn't really an improvement. Teenagers today, they don't know how lucky they are to have the Internet.

The thing that annoyed me the most about the series was Ayla's relentless Mary Sue tendencies. That's also what eventually killed Jacqueline Carey's "Kushiel" books for me, although the increasing ratio of recap-to-plot was also getting pretty bad by #3.

 

[PennLady]

It's been a long time, and I only read bits and pieces, but didn't Judith Krantz get a lot of attention for the explicit sex in her books? I remember a miniseries (Princess Daisy?) that of course could only go so far on network TV, but might have gone further than usual at the time. And I remember skimming another of hers called Lacey that I think opened with a woman shooting a porn movie, specifically an anal scene.

I don't read Krantz or Danielle Steele, so I don't know what they do lately. But it would seem some more explicit stuff, at mainstream publishers, get through at least from time to time.

 

[lovecraft68]

Just went back and read through these posts. I was obviously wrong about shades being indy published and have been trying to figure out where the hell I read that, because I know someone said it. Shame on me for believing all that I read here sometimes.

This leads me to another question however. Many people have claimed Shades is poorly written. PL even had a thread with a link to a blog that was ripping its grammar apart.

So question is, if its that poor why wouldn't Random house have edited it? Isn't that what they do?

Just seems odd.

 

[PennLady]

Just went back and read through these posts. I was obviously wrong about shades being indy published and have been trying to figure out where the hell I read that, because I know someone said it. Shame on me for believing all that I read here sometimes.

This leads me to another question however. Many people have claimed Shades is poorly written. PL even had a thread with a link to a blog that was ripping its grammar apart.

So question is, if its that poor why wouldn't Random house have edited it? Isn't that what they do?

Just seems odd.

I read a little of 50 Shades and at least the first chapters didn't seem badly written, not in a mechanical sense. What I've gathered from talking to people is that it's poorly written in the sense of plot, character, sex, etc. And the blog I linked to, where they suggested so many changes, was really a matter of opinion. I didn't think the original word choices (and they pretty much picked on individual words and phrases) were wrong or bad. In fact I thought the blog tried to dumb it down, and said so.

 

[lovecraft68]

I read a little of 50 Shades and at least the first chapters didn't seem badly written, not in a mechanical sense. What I've gathered from talking to people is that it's poorly written in the sense of plot, character, sex, etc. And the blog I linked to, where they suggested so many changes, was really a matter of opinion. I didn't think the original word choices (and they pretty much picked on individual words and phrases) were wrong or bad. In fact I thought the blog tried to dumb it down, and said so.

See to me, badly written would mean mechanical. Saying the plot, story etc... is poorly written is just opinion. In other words they could say "well I thought it sucked" but that's an opinion.

I never say a book is poorly written because of my own grammar issues(and I can deal with so-so grammar while reading it doesn't jump out at me) but will say liked it/didn't like it. I saw a review where someone killed it because she used some words like "pram" that most people wouldn't know what that was, but that's just style I guess.

The way I've been hearing about this made it seem as if it was technically poorly written, which is a concrete fact that could be proved. Poor;ly written as in it's shitty is all subject to the reader.

 

[PennLady]

I never say a book is poorly written because of my own grammar issues(and I can deal with so-so grammar while reading it doesn't jump out at me) but will say liked it/didn't like it. I saw a review where someone killed it because she used some words like "pram" that most people wouldn't know what that was, but that's just style I guess.

A word like "pram" isn't style, it's because the author is British. I have to say that if people can't figure out what prams, jumpers and trainers are these days after decades of Masterpiece Theater and of course Harry Potter, not to mention just in freaking context, then they're just being ridiculous.

The only caveat I'd give here is that if the author is British but writing about an American character in an American setting then they should use American terminology. I'm curious since as I recall, this was set in the US, so I'd wonder why the word pram (or whatever) was used.

The way I've been hearing about this made it seem as if it was technically poorly written, which is a concrete fact that could be proved. Poor;ly written as in it's shitty is all subject to the reader.

I've only read the first couple of chapters, like I said, so perhaps the writing later on is bad, or awkward, I can't say. I think it's possible for a writer to have the mechanics down, but mess up on structure. That's not necessarily opinion, either; I recently finished a book where an entire plot line of industrial espionage was abandoned.

 

[TxRad]

See to me, badly written would mean mechanical. Saying the plot, story etc... is poorly written is just opinion. In other words they could say "well I thought it sucked" but that's an opinion.

I never say a book is poorly written because of my own grammar issues(and I can deal with so-so grammar while reading it doesn't jump out at me) but will say liked it/didn't like it. I saw a review where someone killed it because she used some words like "pram" that most people wouldn't know what that was, but that's just style I guess.

The way I've been hearing about this made it seem as if it was technically poorly written, which is a concrete fact that could be proved. Poor;ly written as in it's shitty is all subject to the reader.

Most of the mainstream publishers, large and small have good editors. In some cases, some are better than others and more willing to work with an author, especially a new author. Allowances for style are give up to a point. It varies with editors and readability.

I use a lot of contractions because i write like people speak. One editor I have understands this and makes allowances for it. Another is an uphill running battle.

Crappy plots and storyline won't make the cut in the first place unless it is an old name author or something that the publisher thinks will sell like hotcakes.

Just my take on things as I've been there.

 

[lance gt]

I don't rightly care how good 50 shades is/isn't. It's done more than anything else has, to bridge a gap in readers. No matter how much it gets panned, it will always be known as the first to make it and make Ellis a millionaire. We all know there are far better writers here and elsewhere, but they will have the stigma of 50 Shades to beat to be top read, but they will all owe to it, that it led the way for them.

Erotica is about to explode and become a mainstream staple, it's just needs a bold enough pub. to take that first tentative step and break the barriers down completely.

 

[lovecraft68]

Most of the mainstream publishers, large and small have good editors. In some cases, some are better than others and more willing to work with an author, especially a new author. Allowances for style are give up to a point. It varies with editors and readability.

I use a lot of contractions because i write like people speak. One editor I have understands this and makes allowances for it. Another is an uphill running battle.

Crappy plots and storyline won't make the cut in the first place unless it is an old name author or something that the publisher thinks will sell like hotcakes.

Just my take on things as I've been there.

Funny the editor I'm working with is telling me to use contractions, as like you said, that is how people speak.

What's (not what is!) really strange is I speak in contractions. I never say we can not do that or I will not do that its can't and won't. When I wrote it is all would not and should not.

My wife claims my muse must not like them. I just know that I write on the fly and never worry about anything til its time to go back and fix them.

Fixing them is pretty damn tedious though.

On the shades note I wonder if the editor recognized the copy cat style to Twilight which is of course huge and went with it as is.