Probably sick of this question, but I cannot find the answer...

[blulilacgrl]

Okay, this is a serious post even if probably one many of you have heard before. But after all the reading I have been doing, I have to admit I am even more confused than before. So here is my question. How does one know if one is a true submissive?

From everything I have read there are varying levels of submission, which okay makes sense and that much of the lifestyle is personalized between a Dom and sub. Again, makes sense. But then there is talk of bottoming and topping and submission in and out of the bedroom.

So my question is… How can a person tell if he/she is a true sub (given the varying levels and personalization of the relationship) vs. someone who just enjoys bottoming? I don’t know if I even used the proper terminology so please excuse me if I didn’t.

FYI—this is a purely academic, trying to gather information post. So please I am not looking to spark a debate, but as I said I have not been able to find anything that explains the differentiation to me. If there is a link that I missed, please post it and I will happily go there.

Thank you in advance.

 

[graceanne]

What do you consider to be a 'true' submissive? We can't answer your question without this definition, because what is 'true' depends on the person you're asking.

 

[blulilacgrl]

Okay I found this in another thread (can’t believe I missed it!).
“A submissive offers their power to a dominant, because they want to offer it. You had better be very sure that the dominant is going to treat that power the way you want it treated. Or you'd better be ready to take it back.

Now, there is another dynamic which a lot of folk don't seem to know about as much, which is top/bottom. A top is the person who does stuff-- physical, mental, emotional-- in the course of a scene. The bottom is done unto in the course of a scene. Many people think that if they want to be spanked, or tied down, or told they are a little slut-- that makes them submissive and that they must find a dom to submit to-- but that might not be true at all.” Thank you Stella_Omega

And I know this should answer my question…but still it doesn’t quite. Let us use an example.

A is a fan of somewhat rough, forceful sex but most of all gets off on servicing B. Loves to please B in whatever way B likes, to the point the orgasm is not even really considered . This is not to say the A does not like certain things and does not want certain things but in the larger context, what A wants is for B to take control and make A do whatever B wants.

Keep in mind that this is only in the context of within the bedroom.

How would you classify A? As a sub or someone who simply prefers being the bottom in the bedroom?

 

[Evil_Geoff]

A is a fan of somewhat rough, forceful sex but most of all gets off on servicing B. Loves to please B in whatever way B likes, to the point the orgasm is not even really considered . This is not to say the A does not like certain things and does not want certain things but in the larger context, what A wants is for B to take control and make A do whatever B wants.

Keep in mind that this is only in the context of within the bedroom.

How would you classify A? As a sub or someone who simply prefers being the bottom in the bedroom?

Me, I would classify A as a classic "do me" bottom.

Seriously.

"Force ME to suck your dick."
"Throw ME down and ride ME hard until you are satisfied."
"Spank ME and beat ME."
"Make ME do what you want in the bedroom."

Are we seeing the common thread here?

 

[blulilacgrl]

I hadn't thought of that. See and that, I guess, is what I am trying to see where the line is.

Would your definition change if A was willing to forgo his/her pleasure for B's pleasure?

That even though A knows what he/she likes. Most of all A likes making B happy, even at the expense of his/her own pleasure. Or does the fact that A is forgoing pleasure (i.e. orgasm) mean that the argument is moot? Meaning that pleasing B should bring A pleasure even if in a different way.

Am I making any sense?

 

[Evil_Geoff]

I suppose it depends on how you are defining "pleasure".

In my world, "pleasure" is irrelevant to the power exchange. Submission and Domination aren't about who is "pleasing" who. It's about two (or more) individuals who find fulfillment within their relationship - one by surrendering power and authority, one by accepting and exercising that power and authority.

As long as you're not coming out of the bedroom with it, it's all Top/bottom games. There's nothing wrong with that at all if everyone is on the same page. Who is doing and who is recieving whatever activities doesn't define the nature of the power exchange, it is who is in control of what happens. The Dominant in the relationship could be the masochist or the bottom in the bedroom. He or she is in control of what happens, but they are on the receiving end of it. Verstehen sie?

 

[Netzach]

Depends on how that "forgoing" thing is handled.

I mean if you expect a cookie because you decided your orgasm is less important than my orgasm, without me ever telling you that or making a big deal about it, my reaction is hardly "oh wow, amazing, thank you, here's a cookie!"

It means you're using me for your gratification of fantasies.

If you spend a lot of time thinking about what I actually like and want, that's different.

 

[njlauren]

A lot of people spend time debating this one, used to be some pretty vicious wars on the old alt newsgroups in the early days of the net.

Someone who is a bottom IMO is a sensation junky, they get off on the play, on being tied up, whipped, spanked, whatever, they enjoy that role, that part of it, and that is what they are into, they aren't into the power trip/role reversal kind of thing (as someone pointed out, there are dominants who enjoy being bottoms in play, have their subs/slaves 'do things to them').

Submission is a different beast. You can have submission in the bedroom only, when in their the dominant has total control, and more importantly, the sub gets off not just on the play (whatever level) as a bottom was but they get off on being controlled, told what to do, or totally devoting themselves, albeit in the bedroom only, into totally being there to give the other person pleasure (just my words, not a scientific definition by any means). Beyond the bedroom, they are an ordinary couple, ordinary roles and the like. I say this is a submissive because power is involved, it isn't 'tie me up and spank me' and that feels good, it is the dominant wanting to tie him/her up and spank them, whether the sub enjoys it or not (sometimes what the dominant wants is what the sub loves, other times it is simply to please him/her).

Then there is lifestyle D/s, and that is what others have referred to, where the submissive cedes power to the dominant to some level, where they in effect take a step back and say "I am giving turning over my power to you, to use as you see fit". The level varies, the power might be subtle where for most things it is still equal but with other areas the D is in charge, some people the sub literally gives up power over everything, to the level of what to wear each day, what to eat for meals, and yes, going to the bathroom (I marvel at relationships like that, don't know how the D has the energy to do all that,simply homeric IMO.

My take on all this, especially after seeing the wars with people telling others they weren't authentic, is in the end the labels don't really matter, if what you are doing is working for you, mazel tov, that is the golden ticket in all this. Comparing relationships is like comparing whose tomato sauce is better, only sign of a better sauce is if your family will eat it, if so then it is the best.

 

[blulilacgrl]

Thank you for your response!

“As long as you're not coming out of the bedroom with it, it's all Top/bottom games.” Evil_Geoff

Okay. So you don’t subscribe to the notion that there can be a D/s relationship that is exclusive to the bedroom? I guess this is part of what is confusing me the more I read. It seems to be a very fluid lifestyle, which is great. But when trying to understand something, coming up against ‘each person defines it differently’ really doesn’t help. Knowing how you see it definitely helps.


“Depends on how that "forgoing" thing is handled.

I mean if you expect a cookie because you decided your orgasm is less important than my orgasm, without me ever telling you that or making a big deal about it, my reaction is hardly "oh wow, amazing, thank you, here's a cookie!"

It means you're using me for your gratification of fantasies.

If you spend a lot of time thinking about what I actually like and want, that's different.” Netzach

No, I don’t mean forgoing pleasure in order to receive something. I mean in the sense of wanting to please so much. On the one hand would A like certain things? Sure. But at the end of the day the one thing A wants more than anything is to make B happy, to submit to B.

This is where the confusion of submitting and being a sub is coming up for me. Just because A wants to submit to B and give to B and do whatever B wants (again only in the bedroom) does that make A a sub? Or simply a bottom? In the bedroom A just simply doesn’t think about his/her own pleasure, only B’s. A likes to be instructed, told what to do. Really gets off on it~ admittedly the rougher or more forceful the better but anytime B tells A to do something A gets turned on.

Does that help explain my confusion?

 

[kitten00]

Okay I found this in another thread (can’t believe I missed it!).
“A submissive offers their power to a dominant, because they want to offer it. You had better be very sure that the dominant is going to treat that power the way you want it treated. Or you'd better be ready to take it back.

Now, there is another dynamic which a lot of folk don't seem to know about as much, which is top/bottom. A top is the person who does stuff-- physical, mental, emotional-- in the course of a scene. The bottom is done unto in the course of a scene. Many people think that if they want to be spanked, or tied down, or told they are a little slut-- that makes them submissive and that they must find a dom to submit to-- but that might not be true at all.” Thank you Stella_Omega

And I know this should answer my question…but still it doesn’t quite. Let us use an example.

A is a fan of somewhat rough, forceful sex but most of all gets off on servicing B. Loves to please B in whatever way B likes, to the point the orgasm is not even really considered . This is not to say the A does not like certain things and does not want certain things but in the larger context, what A wants is for B to take control and make A do whatever B wants.

Keep in mind that this is only in the context of within the bedroom.

How would you classify A? As a sub or someone who simply prefers being the bottom in the bedroom?

I personally think that A sounds like a sometimes sub-that is they don't necessarily crave constant control and domination. Especially since this is only in the context of the bedroom, A simply sounds like a sometimes slut, that is she enjoys submission, yet is not fully owned or committed to it, and does not live to please her master

 

[Sir_Winston54]

Why all the angst about a set of words that mean different things to different people? Do you *have* to label yourselves in order to get off on what it is that you do? Is there something inherent in the label that if you use that label, you're not allowed to enjoy, or that you (plural) are required to do that you (plural) don't want to do?

Okay, yeah, I identify as a Sadist with some small portion of Dom and a smaller-yet portion of bondage involved... mostly those are just for enjoying my sadism more, or more easily. But I don't have to call myself a sadist to enjoy taking a cane to a barenaked ass and welting and striping it to my heart's content; nor does my partner actually label herself as a masochist. She just likes the things I do, and likes me liking them, and they often (but not always) lead to the things she likes even more: orgasms. And I'm happy to help her reach them, by whatever means - does that mean she's topping from the bottom, or that I'm acting as a service top to her? Nope - because the Dom part of me likes *creating* those orgasms and controlling them and enhancing them by my participation.

I say: Screw the labels, send me the fun! (Apologies to Philip Miller and Molly Devon, but I just couldn't resist! )

 

[blulilacgrl]

Wow, you guys! Thank you so much, I am getting so much help here!

“Submission is a different beast. You can have submission in the bedroom only, when in their the dominant has total control, and more importantly, the sub gets off not just on the play (whatever level) as a bottom was but they get off on being controlled, told what to do, or totally devoting themselves, albeit in the bedroom only, into totally being there to give the other person pleasure (just my words, not a scientific definition by any means). Beyond the bedroom, they are an ordinary couple, ordinary roles and the like. I say this is a submissive because power is involved, it isn't 'tie me up and spank me' and that feels good, it is the dominant wanting to tie him/her up and spank them, whether the sub enjoys it or not (sometimes what the dominant wants is what the sub loves, other times it is simply to please him/her).” njlauren

YES! This would describe A perfectly. Thank you for putting it much clearly than I did.

“I personally think that A sounds like a sometimes sub” kitten00

I think this was kind of driving my question…. in that can a person BE a sometime sub? Or is it an all or nothing kind of thing?

“Why all the angst about a set of words that mean different things to different people? Do you *have* to label yourselves in order to get off on what it is that you do?” Sir_Winston54

Lol. While I agree with you. For the purposes of discussion, I think that sometimes understanding the labels is crucial to the conversation. If A wants to talk to B about submission and domination, but B thinks domination is all about whips, chains, and constantly being the one “topping” , then the discussion won’t go well. Or if B thinks that A’s submission in the bedroom extends beyond the boundaries of the bedroom that could lead to problems. This all comes down to being able to explain wants and needs in a clear and concise fashion. Not necessarily labeling everything before being able to enjoy it. Also A might need to be fully sure that he/she is indeed wanting to submit and not just act as a bottom , as perhaps some would think. Because if that is the case then using words like submission and domination would be incorrect and possibly cause confusion.

Again thank you to everyone who is taking the time to help me answer this question.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

In this online community, it's all the rage to claim to be this, that, or the other thing all willy nilly, and to claim words mean whatever we want them to mean.

I don't buy into that line of reasoning at all. Some HNG who thinks he'll get laid by calling himself a "Master" isn't one.

Nor is a bottom who gets all turned on at the thought of being called a "submissive" just because they want their partner to get all Domly and rough in the sack a submissive.

Sorry kiddos, that dog don't hunt.

You either are something, or you aren't. You can pretend to be one on the internet, or in the bedroom. That's cool, have fun with it. I can play act at being Doctor Feelgood and give someone a gynecological exam... They get off on it, I get off on it, but I'm still not a doctor. Capisce?

 

[Corbal]

In this online community, it's all the rage to claim to be this, that, or the other thing all willy nilly, and to claim words mean whatever we want them to mean.

I don't buy into that line of reasoning at all. Some HNG who thinks he'll get laid by calling himself a "Master" isn't one.

Nor is a bottom who gets all turned on at the thought of being called a "submissive" just because they want their partner to get all Domly and rough in the sack a submissive.

Sorry kiddos, that dog don't hunt.

You either are something, or you aren't. You can pretend to be one on the internet, or in the bedroom. That's cool, have fun with it. I can play act at being Doctor Feelgood and give someone a gynecological exam... They get off on it, I get off on it, but I'm still not a doctor. Capisce?

Loved this thread and your posts in regards to the matter. Kudos.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I think this was kind of driving my question…. in that can a person BE a sometime sub?

Why not? If, when you get into the bedroom it's all-- or even almost all-- about your partner and their pleasure and hardly none about about your own-- sounds a lot like submission to me.

Even when that stops in the living room. And as opposed to bottoming, which is definitely about your own desire as well as your partner's.

BTW-- for some of us-- our desire is to pretend we are submissive for a while, and you know what? That's motherfucking okay too. Just don't be fooling some innocent Domly type into thinking that's you all the time

Or is it an all or nothing kind of thing?

Nope. Human beings are always a mixture of frailties. In the Bell Curve of things, most of us are a something some of the time, or a something most of the time, or even a something so much of the time we hardly remember those two times we were something else-- only a very few people are truly all or nothing anything.

 

[blulilacgrl]

Okay guys! Thank you so much! I think I have finally figured out how to explain this. How to help someone understand this. And you guys have really put it into perspective.

I think (and feel free to correct me if I have it wrong) that there is a place to be dominant in the bedroom with being "A Dominant". And similarly one can be submissive in the bedroom without necessarily being "a submissive". That there can be the one without the bleed over.

This may seem silly but when explaining this to another person, it is difficult. Especially when I am not an expert.

That's why I came to you.
Thank you again.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yes. And if it works for those two people then they are doing it right.

 

[graceanne]

Yes. And if it works for those two people then they are doing it right.

Pretty much. As long as both people know what the other person wants and is willing to provide, and that works for them, life will go on if they are using the improper label. It all boils down to communication, making sure that your definition of the word and their definition of the word are the same.

For instance, I label myself as a sub, but it's been argued by a few others that I'm a slave. *shrugs* That's just because my definition of slave and theirs differs. But, in the long run, it doesn't matter if I call myself a sub or slave, as long as K knows who (and what) I am and I am what he wants me to be.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Whereas I might imagine being a slave-- but not a very submissive one.

And not lifelong either, maybe for a weekend. maybe for a long weekend.

 

[graceanne]

Whereas I might imagine being a slave-- but not a very submissive one.

And not lifelong either, maybe for a weekend. maybe for a long weekend.

LOL..

 

[Curious_in_Cali]

OK, for some reason, the line between bottom and submissive still seems to squirm for me. What would change in the example that would have made A a submissive person? Is it just that the acts do not leave the bedroom? Or is it that A had selfish desires to be acted upon? Do having selfish carnal desires preclude you from being able to wear the submissive label on your lapel?

I struggle to understand that this idea of being submissive is actually purely selfless when there really isn't such a thing as a truly selfless act. Yes, in many ways it seems such a generous and beautiful thing to serve someone else's needs and wants, to give of yourself and to work diligently to just make them happy. But then I have to ask, WHY does the submissive person please? Deep down, what really drives them to give? Regardless of wanting or needing to do it, there is always a return for any act we choose to do. It can be just a smile, or warm feeling, or even a sense of "rightness" or fluidity to their world that surrender brings. This being true even if they would argue it is not pleasurable in the more generic/orgasm-like understanding of the word.

Selfishness is not really a bad thing in and of itself but people seem to resist the word for some reason. I think that submission is ultimately a selfish act, even if it is about survival. I mean really, survival itself is inherently selfish, how could it not be? But do you think that this primal need for selfishness somehow precludes the acts of service as also being a submissive need driven gift? Why would needing it or wanting it label it as bottoming?

If I would find a sense of contentment (or even pleasure) in serving regardless of the act, would that make me less submissive? If making a hungry someone a sandwich (in the kitchen, not the bedroom) lights me up/ turns me on or even just grounds me in a moment of pure contentment, would it make me more submissive? Or would the fact that it turned me on just make me a sandwich top... or maybe a sandwich bottom?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Meh, it's just Domly Dominess talk. I'm not sure what all that stuff is supposed to mean either, especially in a wider-than-BDSM context. it all sounds a bit precious to me.

 

[DenverFunguy]

moving target

Not to confuse things but it is different for everyone and will be different for you both as time goes on! There are no “rules” other than what you and he are ready for. Today. Tomorrow will be different for you both. We learn we grow we get bored we read something new we had not thought about. Life is always changing. Even Helen Keller said “life is ether a daring adventure or nothing at all” Now she may not have been talking about sex, but it is the same for all walks of life.

 

[njlauren]

As some have pointed out, in the end it is what you think it is. I don't agree with Evil Geoff's viewpoint, that somehow there is a magic line that defines what a submissive is, that somehow someone who doesn't meet some magic test is not a submissive, to quote others it is very fluid and I don't think labels or rigid boundaries make all that much sense because D/s by its very nature if individual (sorry, old guard types with your protocol and rules and such, that might work for you, but it isn't written in stone).

I saw the same crap with people in M/s relationships, I saw those who said you are only truly M and s if you do X, Y and Z, and that is a crock of unfettered bullshit, an M/s is what the pair make of it. Sorry, but because an M doesn't want to control every aspect of an S's life, or if they are only M/s full blown TPE on weekends while during the week it is D/s lite, so what? It is their life, their relationship (and quote honestly, many of the 'true' D/s types I have met often seem to be between relationships, i wonder why...and I am talking about those who pretend to know what is best for others).

The idea that there is such a thing as a 'true' submissive personality type is mind boggling, because there is a wide spectrum out there. I know of people, male and female, who are extroverts, who would be the last person you would think are sub, who in fact live variations on D/s lifestyles but in their relationships with the world or their D's it is quite subtle. The idea that a 'real submissive' is someone who totally likes for the their master/mistress, who totally needs them to control them in everything, is a stereotype that fits some but not all....

Maybe instead of 'real' and 'pretend' I would use the term lifestyle D/s and non lifestyle, it fits better and even there the line is blurry (if a couple only does the D/s stuff on the weekend, is that lifestyle, or is it true on 24/7//what about couples who are 16/7, where 8 hours they take a 'time out' from the D/s and live like a vanilla couple? You get the drift.

Submissive defines a kind of behavior or behavior, and attitude, and it can be in the bedroom only, if that is how the person is. Just because someone is submissive in the bedroom doesn't make them a bottom pretending to be a sub, because the dynamics are very different, it is all about headspace and where they are. If a bottom likes to get whipped then they are getting whipped by the top because they want to; is a sub doesn't like getting whipped or hit by hot wax, they do so because it gives them pleasure because it pleases their domme there, big difference. And yes, someone can enjoy something and also get the extra rush because their D loves it as well *shrug*.

The real answer is it is like sports fans. There are some people who live their lives by sports, by being a fan, watching games, listening to talk radio and so forth, there are people who enjoy watching sports but it isn't their total life,then there are those who enjoy watching sports with others as a social thing but don't get into the nitty gritty..all are sports fans, but in different ways.

 

[DenverFunguy]

corect

You are both right. Evil Geoff is right if you take the purest viewpoint. And you are right for you and your way of looking at it. The point is that what ever works for each couple is what is right for them. There is a wonderful book that if you want to know the "rules" so you can find out more information and help give yourself a better view of what makes your heart beat faster, read "screw the roses, send me the thorns". Sorry I don't have the author handy right now but will post later.
Barns and noble orded it for me.

Sorry for the typos spell checker is down on my phone.