Are Dom's villians?

[BuckyDuckman]

Are Dom's villains?

Maybe this is a thread that's better suited for the AH forum - I'm not sure how many subs could willingly reply with candor - however:

Are Doms automatically villain characters?

Over in the AH forum, there's this thread about the book "Fifty Shades of Grey." One of the comments included this:

... but that it says some things about BDSM that I find quite disconcerting, especially in a book that's gained this kind of mainstream cultural awareness. ... I find the fact that the resident Dom has some Freudian reason for being kinky to be kind of disconcerting. Ditto Ana's initial and repeated calling him a monster because of it. And that's saying nothing of the fact that for most of the book it seems almost like she's just gritting her teeth through all the kinky stuff in order to redeem her broken-bird love interest. There's just this constant, low level Bondage Is Bad implication that I find a tad offensive.

That got me thinking of books with BDSM themes that have found a wider audience. It seems to be a common theme. Justine (of de Sade fame) didn't choose the things that happened to her. Neither did Beauty (of Anne Rice's "Sleeping Beauty" series). But since BDSM isn't my first reading choice, my sample size is probably way too small.

I was following a few threads over at IMDB about villains and it was suggested that audiences don't want to know too much about a villain's motivations for being such.

Applying those thoughts to writing about BDSM themes: IF I wanted to write a mainstream, bestseller, I come away with two standard thoughts. 1) the Dom is automatically the villain. 2) The sub is always reluctant and should never admit to enjoying punishment.

What am I missing?

 

[Primalex]

villain

 

[catalina_francisco]

I think the scenario you present for writing a best seller for a mainstream audience is spot on, but better know as Romance/Historical Romance where the damsel falls for or is taken by the bad boy but in the end it works for both of them and true love prevails, even after he has raped, kidnapped and brutalised her. Is it BDSM? Not in the sense that most here identify with, but the elements which attract many to this world remain the same, at least in fantasy.

You only have to read the titles of many threads here to see that rape is a common theme. Does it translate to those same people wanting their fantasy to become a reality? Not always, perhaps rarely even, but given an environment with someone who understands what is OK and what is not (for those involved), and you can have a relationship made in heaven. I do think many in the mainstream see it as an opportunity to cash in, I find few of those people really get what they are trying to portray. This can be dangerous when others take their view as factual and use it to either address the legality of BDSM, form a relationship, or just dabble to quench their curiosity. Hence this is part of why I am not one of those crying out to want mainstream people understand what makes me tick and why...frankly I don't see it as any more their business than it is for me to want to know and judge what they do in the privacy of their own homes.

Catalina

 

[Kurokami]

Haha, cool. I'd hoped to get a discussion going like this

Yes, there does seem to be a bit of a thrust toward turning Doms into the bad guys. Perhaps it's got something to do with repressed guilt over sex or something; after all, not only is a Dom kinky (sin!) but also the "active" participant in the kink (double sin!)

Anyway, when I called it "Bondage Is Bad" earlier? That's an actual thing: here is a pretty cool list of examples of this trope in fiction. There's kind of a lot of them; when I'm a little more awake I might try thinking of more to say, but for now this should be a pretty good sample for you, Bucky

 

[BuckyDuckman]

Haha, cool. I'd hoped to get a discussion going like this

Yes, there does seem to be a bit of a thrust toward turning Doms into the bad guys. Perhaps it's got something to do with repressed guilt over sex or something; after all, not only is a Dom kinky (sin!) but also the "active" participant in the kink (double sin!)

Anyway, when I called it "Bondage Is Bad" earlier? That's an actual thing: here is a pretty cool list of examples of this trope in fiction. There's kind of a lot of them; when I'm a little more awake I might try thinking of more to say, but for now this should be a pretty good sample for you, Bucky

In my world view - Doms are seldom villians nor are subs unwilling or innocents. Doms should enjoy their "work." And subs, even when being punished, should enjoy their service. That doesn't mean subs enjoy being punished, of course. But I can start conjecturing outside of my experience too damn fast.

Thanks for the link. I LOL'ed quite a bit, as I do with most lists of tropes.

 

[Netzach]

I like the gay classic Mr. Benson, absurdity aside, for this reason. There are good Doms and the evil is pretty much in the form of a mafia driven bad guy sado, it's VERY silly stuff, but isn't it all?

My favorite part is the ending, because the whole book has been the classic bottom's version of events, but there's a coda where Mr. Benson, the fantastic, classic icon of brooding sado brutality speaks and his version of events is very warm and fuzzy in a way.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

villain

Bucky? There's a reason qp's post was one word: He was sending you a message.

It's not villian; it's villAIn.

 

[BuckyDuckman]

Bucky? There's a reason qp's post was one word: He was sending you a message.

It's not villian; it's villAIn.

LMAO - Thanks Sir_Winston54 - at least I was consistent. I made the appropriate edit.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Antihero of "Topping from Below"=villan.

 

[Que]

one tries to live up to the type. seriously though I think not...dominants I see in the protector role

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'd say it depends on what group of writers you're reading.

Among the D/s writers I favor, there is a distinct trend towards subs who really need a Master, and who find themselves warred over by two Alpha types. Usually, they make the decision sometimes to the surprise of the Dominants who never expected the poor little thing to stand up on his or her own two feet-- and then the sub never really has to stand alone again. Sometimes one Dom is a villain, and the sub is saved from the bad guy, sometimes neither of them are and the villain is someone or something else.

I could speculate on what that means-- and I won't touch the fact that I can't remember reading a submissive villain, because dammit it's a suckass monday already, enough is enough.

 

[BuckyDuckman]

It occurs to me I may be guilt of missing the obvious, from Animal Farm nonetheless, "Power tends to corrupt, and absollute power corrupts absolutely." Based on that principle, Doms should be portrayed as being evil, somehow broken people.

Mind you, I'm speaking in literary terms and not real life. For r/l, I find query's thought most alluring, that Doms are protectors.

What's more, there's simple drama in the concept of the sub who needs to be broken or the sub who doesn't think they need a Dom and the story of the Dom who either breaks them or teaches them otherwise. (As a self-proclaimed lightweight in the area of BDSM, I hope to fuck that I'm not offending anyone.)

I'm sitting a finished novel that my private, first draft readers have loved. It's all about control. It has a couple major strikes against it (which is why I remain sitting on it).
1) It reads like a damn porno. Except I believe all the sex is purposeful. Limits are consistently pushed and without graphic descriptions of the sex, the reader misses the elements of "are they really going to do that?"
2) Most mainstream people interpret the book as being BDSM - but it's done without spankings, paddlings, leather, constraints, dungeons - or any of the elements I find so common in so much of the BDSM I read. It's a story of blackmail, control, dominance, revenge, and ultimately deep, deep love.
2b) It contains a lot of male bisexuality, much of it forced bisexuality, which I think will limit its appeal.

In the story, the Dom appears to be villain. She's a real bitch. Conniving, controlling, intuitive, and smart-as-hell. Her every escalation should feel as if it's nothing more than play for her, as if she doesn't give a fuck... until the end, when it's clear she always has. Hence the original question, I guess.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

.... the concept of the sub who needs to be broken or the sub who doesn't think they need a Dom and the story of the Dom who either breaks them or teaches them otherwise. (As a self-proclaimed lightweight in the area of BDSM, I hope to fuck that I'm not offending anyone.)

First, let me say: No offense taken. I've been in (and occasionally out of) the BDSM culture for more than 40 years, and find it refreshing whenever someone has the 'nads to admit they're "a lightweight," in whatever terminology they may choose.

HOWEVER: I want to take (lower-case) issue with the bolded portion above, in re breaking submissives/pyls. You've heard the cliché, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," right? Well, in the BDSM culture (and maybe someone can help me with phrasing on this, because I'm a bit drugged up {legal stuff only, just in pain today}, and I'm not entirely happy with my phraseology), I say, "If it don't need to be fixed, don't break it."

(And yes, the grammatical error is deliberate, in keeping with the original quotation's construction.)

 

[CutieMouse]

Maybe this is a thread that's better suited for the AH forum - I'm not sure how many subs could willingly reply with candor

Seriously? Being submissive somehow automatically means I can't offer my own opinion?



Yes, in works of fiction (or in the case of De Sade, political prose) dominants are often presented as corrupt villains, incapable of "normal" relationships... similarly, submissives are presented as poor broken mentally ill victims of their abused background.

*yawn*

From the reviews I've read, the guy in 50 Shades is also under 30, insanely wealthy, and covers the girl's bruises with diamonds... do you also believe all dominants are young, hot, and independently wealthy?

 

[BuckyDuckman]

Seriously? Being submissive somehow automatically means I can't offer my own opinion?

Clearly I was guilty of making a false assumption. Apologies. I had no intent to offend, not even through ignorance.

From the reviews I've read, the guy in 50 Shades is also under 30, insanely wealthy, and covers the girl's bruises with diamonds... do you also believe all dominants are young, hot, and independently wealthy?

Certainly not. Nor do I believe that all the diamonds in the world could buy absolute obedience.

 

[CutieMouse]

Clearly I was guilty of making a false assumption. Apologies. I had no intent to offend, not even through ignorance.



Certainly not. Nor do I believe that all the diamonds in the world could buy absolute obedience.

Presuming that BDSM-based erotica somehow offers insight into actual BDSM-based relationships is a pretty common occurrence. People read The Story of O, get turned on, and think O = BDSM. Then they move onto The Sleeping Beauty Series, and get more turned on, and it reinforces the idea that Sleeping Beauty = BDSM. Then maybe they read The Marketplace Series, and dammit if that doesn't clinch it! They've found their calling!! Their life's ambition is to be a submissive/slave*!!!

* As long as the dominant/Master in question understand that [just like in the books] real dominants do things the way those fictional characters did, and that the real purpose of this whole BDSM thing is to make the submissive the center of attention, with lots and lots and lots of sex/orgasms, and that expecting grown adults to maintain certain life responsibilities and/or sometimes [possibly even frequently] do things they might not enjoy is a sure sign the "dom" is a total fake!

[/tongue in cheek]

 

[Etoile]

Anyway, when I called it "Bondage Is Bad" earlier? That's an actual thing: here is a pretty cool list of examples of this trope in fiction.

You ALMOST got me onto TVTropes. Almost. But I read that article and then closed the window.

 

[Stella_Omega]

do you also believe all dominants are young, hot, and independently wealthy?

Well, yeah!

*blink blink*

 

[satindesire]

And subs, even when being punished, should enjoy their service. That doesn't mean subs enjoy being punished, of course.

Huh?

 

[BuckyDuckman]

Huh?

That in reply to my original statement, "And subs, even when being punished, should enjoy their service. That doesn't mean subs enjoy being punished, of course."

In an effort to be respectful, I was trying to cover the bases while comparing and contrasting mainstream literature's approach to BDSM themes versus real life practices.

In mainstream literature I've read - subs seem to protest about their service, denying any benefit they may receive from it with a "woe-is-me" attitude. They appear as victims beneath the heel of the villainous Dom. Makes for easy drama.

R/L appears to offer as many variations on BDSM themes as there are Doms and subs. If there's anything common in the relationships, it would make sense that subs, in general, enjoy their service.

I like CutieMouse's humor. I understand the precise nature of a D/s relationship has many layers (Like a parfait - people love parfaits). I've seen and read the dispair of some subs who can't seem to satisfy their Dom. I've seen and read the joy other subs seem to experience after serving well. Just as I've witnessed the hero worship from subs who appear to understand the full breadth of their relationship and their place inside of it.

I don't believe a BDSM relationship is an abusive relationship, whether it's a 24/7 lifestyle or occasional play. I do believe most vanillas can't wrap their head around that simple concept. Some people enjoy pain. Some don't enjoy pain, but need it. I sought to allow for both.

 

[satindesire]

That in reply to my original statement, "And subs, even when being punished, should enjoy their service. That doesn't mean subs enjoy being punished, of course."

In an effort to be respectful, I was trying to cover the bases while comparing and contrasting mainstream literature's approach to BDSM themes versus real life practices.

In mainstream literature I've read - subs seem to protest about their service, denying any benefit they may receive from it with a "woe-is-me" attitude. They appear as victims beneath the heel of the villainous Dom. Makes for easy drama.

R/L appears to offer as many variations on BDSM themes as there are Doms and subs. If there's anything common in the relationships, it would make sense that subs, in general, enjoy their service.

I like CutieMouse's humor. I understand the precise nature of a D/s relationship has many layers (Like a parfait - people love parfaits). I've seen and read the dispair of some subs who can't seem to satisfy their Dom. I've seen and read the joy other subs seem to experience after serving well. Just as I've witnessed the hero worship from subs who appear to understand the full breadth of their relationship and their place inside of it.

I don't believe a BDSM relationship is an abusive relationship, whether it's a 24/7 lifestyle or occasional play. I do believe most vanillas can't wrap their head around that simple concept. Some people enjoy pain. Some don't enjoy pain, but need it. I sought to allow for both.

I don't think subs are often thinking about how much they enjoy their service while they're being punished. They're way more likely to be focusing on how absolutely much they hate being punished, instead of off in la-la land fantasizing about how packing Mr. Dom's lunch is so personally fulfilling. Sorry if that sounds snarky, I just don't see how a sub can be thinking about enjoying service while being punished. That seems a little far out in Fantasy BDSM Book Land.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I don't think subs are often thinking about how much they enjoy their service while they're being punished. They're way more likely to be focusing on how absolutely much they hate being punished, instead of off in la-la land fantasizing about how packing Mr. Dom's lunch is so personally fulfilling. Sorry if that sounds snarky, I just don't see how a sub can be thinking about enjoying service while being punished. That seems a little far out in Fantasy BDSM Book Land.

I tend to agree with you, though I would add if they are thinking about how they enjoy their service, they are missing the whole point of punishment, or perhaps it is what some call punishment when it is really play. IME, most pyl's who are being punished firstly feel sad they have disappointed and/or failed to please, some even think about how they failed and how they could improve, and some need it to alow them to move beyond the moment in question. I am one of the ones who need it but at the same time feel destroyed to know I failed or did anything requiring punishment.


Catalina

 

[Stella_Omega]

How many mainstream books do we have to base these conclusions on? I only know of Shades of Grey and maybe you could include Story of O as a mainstream book.
I am extremely unread in a lot of genres. So maybe there are titles that i have never heard.

Sleeping Beauty?

 

[catalina_francisco]

I also am not up on the BDSM fiction reading list. Not sure I would class Story of O as mainstream though.

Catalina

 

[FurryFury]

It is quite common for the Dom/mes or one of them, to be a murderer or villain. I run two BDSM Book of the Month clubs one here in the cafe and one at Fetlife.

Most BDSM novels are crap.

Yes, often the subs are confused or reluctant but I kind of like to see a struggle that resonates for me. Sadly too many characters are thin as the paper they are written on.

Very few BDSM novels have stories that matter independent of the D/s dynamic.

Very few BDSM have deep, multilayer-ed characters.

Too many have "perfect" looking characters.

Too many have Doms that are rich and a society of rich kinky folk.

FF