BDSM and misogyny

[Stella_Omega]

As he pleases? So as a punching bag, if he had a bad day at work?

yes, in osg's relationship, he does have that right. She is themost extreme case that I know of, but I, at least, have had corroboration-- I totally believe her, and think she's entirely legit.

And for her, her life is right. In fact, we could all wish to find so perfect a match.

Marriage is a contract -- heck, all relationships are agreements with terms defined by their participants. You can agree to whatever you want.

yes indeed. But you can't say that your agreement is the best for every[woman], not if you want to keep all of your teeth.

 

[eastern sun]

That's interesting...
So you think that cos sexuality is genetically determined, but BDSM is seen as deviant and wrong, then frustrated sexual BDSM feeling might be surfacing unhealthily (like un-consented) as misogyny?

Or that men are hard-wired to dominate women and the fucked extreme of that is misogyny?

I feel like this is potentially interesting but that I'm not quite understanding you or getting it. Can you tell me where I'm going wrong (or is that right?!).

I don't know what's wrong or right. But I do think both of your conclusions could be drawn from the question I posed. And I also think it's a potentially interesting discussion.

I know that my own frustrated sexuality led to all kinds of strange, and often self-defeating, behavior before I surfaced the idea of being "slave." Try to repress any sexuality or sexual energy, and it's going to express itself somehow.

And I am certain that not all men are hard-wired to dominate women, though there may be some biological advantage to those that do. I do think, however, that misogyny could be a result of that hardwiring in the context of certain cultural forces and/or individual experiences that are then generalized into "the way things are."

 

[ownedsubgal]

Not too many women "give themselves via marriage" anymore, and inthe countries where that's true, it's not usually her choice. There is a difference between marriage, which in our society is a partnership of equals, and slavery.

just because western culture/society has redefined marriage to mean something entirely contrary to its original intention and purpose, does not make that redefinition correct and the original meaning no longer valid. but you point out precisely why i have always had such a distaste for marriage, because of what it looks like in our (the west) world. if i were married and known as "wife," the vast majority of people would take that to mean i were in a "partnership of equals" as you say, and that would just kill it for me. i could not be a wife in this world.

also, please understand that it is the fact that i am not simply thinking in terms of myself or the way i would wish to live specifically, but in a broader more social and cultural sense, that makes it impossible for me to be a feminist. or politically correct. or popular. but that's fine.

 

[Stella_Omega]

So you're really-truly saying that ALL women should live the way you do-- because they are women?

You're right, that will not make you popular.

If what you mean (I hope) is that you would like your type of relationship to be more recognised and accepted-- that, I can sympathise with.
At least, that wish.

I mean, I have my own set of personal desires that I wish were more acceptable, and were something I could talk about in normal company.

Thing is, I don't think my way is perfect for the whole world. If you do... well, it's not worth talking about, is it. I'm just glad that you have zero power in our society, because I would on the verge of suicide-- as I was in the bad old days when what you long for was more customary.

 

[ownedsubgal]

So you're really-truly saying that ALL women should live the way you do-- because they are women?

if you'll re-read what i've stated here and in many over threads over years, i always recognize exceptions, and in fact i recognize the importance of those exceptions in the natural order of things. but yes i do believe in a certain standard. and it has nothing to do with happiness or some such warm fuzzy thing, but what i believe would create a more efficient, productive society. that is another thing which separates me from the BDSM crowd: i do not care about what feels good, i care about what is and should be. it does not turn me on to be beaten, but if i am beaten i deserve it and that is right.

 

[Stella_Omega]

if you'll re-read what i've stated here and in many over threads over years, i always recognize exceptions, and in fact i recognize the importance of those exceptions in the natural order of things.

How would you expect those exceptions to be recognised in this society you envision? Who gets to be the exception, and is there a limit to the number of exceptions, beyond which all other would-be exceptors are shit-out-of-luck?

And this one is even more important-- Who makes the decision? Because right now as an example, we have these straight majorities making decisions for GLBT folk, and you have to admit-- some people are living entire lives of shit-out-of-luck. They are dying of old age still shit-out-of-luck.

but yes i do believe in a certain standard. and it has nothing to do with happiness or some such warm fuzzy thing, but what i believe would create a more efficient, productive society.

Efficient in what way? Producing what? Why is happiness not important?

that is another thing which separates me from the BDSM crowd: i do not care about what feels good, i care about what is and should be. it does not turn me on to be beaten, but if i am beaten i deserve it and that is right.

Personally, I think YOU are the exception, and I am always ready to recognise and support you in that.

 

[Edith_UK]

if you'll re-read what i've stated here and in many over threads over years, i always recognize exceptions, and in fact i recognize the importance of those exceptions in the natural order of things. but yes i do believe in a certain standard. and it has nothing to do with happiness or some such warm fuzzy thing, but what i believe would create a more efficient, productive society. that is another thing which separates me from the BDSM crowd: i do not care about what feels good, i care about what is and should be. it does not turn me on to be beaten, but if i am beaten i deserve it and that is right.

Oh get over yourself.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Oh get over yourself.

Oddly enough, that's an order she will not obey.

 

[ownedsubgal]

How would you expect those exceptions to be recognised in this society you envision? Who gets to be the exception, and is there a limit to the number of exceptions, beyond which all other would-be exceptors are shit-out-of-luck?

And this one is even more important-- Who makes the decision? Because right now as an example, we have these straight majorities making decisions for GLBT folk, and you have to admit-- some people are living entire lives of shit-out-of-luck. They are dying of old age still shit-out-of-luck.
Efficient in what way? Producing what? Why is happiness not important?
Personally, I think YOU are the exception, and I am always ready to recognise and support you in that.

this all gets to a very complex anthropological and psychological place that can't really be hashed out over the exchange of posts on a message board. but in the most simplistic of terms i am talking about the difference between what we do, how we live, even what we believe we really and truly desire, and who we truly are and how we are intended to live. we are so radically out of touch with our primal selves these days that any trace of that is going to read as immoral/wrong/wackadoodle to most folks, but that doesn't change the dna.

as for your questions as to efficiency and productiveness, i am referring to the success of the human race as a whole. what allows us to move forward, with a clear direction, together, and to thrive...rather than the disparate and fractured existence which we have created. individual happiness does not override the well-being of a society. and on a personal level, i do not even believe that individual happiness overrides the well-being of a relationship.

of course this is all fairy tale talk, because we are on the road we are on, and there is no turning back at this point.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Oh get over yourself.

perhaps recognize that you and i are just very, very different, and that's okay. i have no interest in preventing you from being you. but i do find it exceedingly difficult and frustrating to communicate with you, so i give up.

 

[BiBunny]

Y'all...I have been here since 2005. Nearly every time OSG comes around and comments on a topic, it turns into another version of the same thing. Can we *please* accept the fact that nobody here is going to change her mind? It's cool for her to believe what she believes, since she's not insisting we all believe it, too.

 

[Stella_Omega]

this all gets to a very complex anthropological and psychological place...

Oh, evopsyche bullshit. Gotcha.

 

[LazzieLace]

Oh get over yourself.

Please, don't bring down the discussion by being insulting to other posters. Also you can look back in history and get many examples to support many things. There are still cultures today where the women rule. Also history began when the world began. Look at Celtic or Viking cultures and you will see that woman had much more power.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, just as everyone has their own wants and needs. Some take part in BDSM for sexual needs, others make it a part of their life, and I'm sure there are many other reasons.

As another poster said, there are abused people in all walks of life. You need to protect yourself in BDSM, just as you would protect yourself in normal life.

I consider myself a feminist, but not in the modern sense. I think women and men are different, and I would rather fight for the right for a women to be able to stay at home and tend to her children, rather than fighting for women to have high ranked and paid jobs.

@ownedsubgal I find you to be very intellectual, and find your views on things very interesting. While I could never see myself in your situation, I can understand that for you it is very fulfilling.

 

[His_pet_slut]

you certainly make a lot of assumptions about the ideas and beliefs of others. i never stated or implied anything about feminists being hairy lesbians.

i am not a feminist because i do not believe in male/female equality in all things. i also believe the rights of a free/single woman and that of a married/owned woman are very different. for instance i do not recognize the concept of marital rape. i do not believe an owned woman should have the right to open a bank account without the presence and signature of her Owner, etc. i recognize and value the significant differences between male and female. it does not mean i think of men as "better" or as of having higher value, it is a power thing and a primal instinct thing. i appreciate men living as nature wired them as opposed to forcing themselves into the emasculation western society forces upon them.

and yes, this is generalizing. yes, i recognize exceptions to my beliefs in the natural order (which i actually find quite natural as well). in the primal society i envision, a naturally Dominant woman like Netz for instance would be held up as a community leader, a priestess of sorts without the mumbojumbo. but certainly not a norm.

so you see no, i am not a feminist.

Not meaning to be harsh here, but what will you do if your owner/spouse has say a massive stroke and is no longer capable of taking care of these details? Say he is so brain damaged he cannot drive, or know what he is signing. Will you be capable of stepping up to the plate and taking care of these things? Will you be able to get credit on your own if you are facing having to do all these things as you make preparations to put him in a nursing home, despite the fact he is only 59 because you can no longer leave him alone during the day while you go to work because he might burn the house down? My marriage is not D/s, it was based on equality and was very open...and this is what my current reality is. Did we plan on it? Of course not, but it is a damn good thing I know how to care for myself out in the world as well as make the decisions that need to be made for him as he is now dying and lacks the cognitive ability to make the decisions himself.

Yeah, I am a feminist. I am a wife, a mother and a grandmother. I do the work, I deserve the same pay. End of story.

 

[_Stardust]

Please, don't bring down the discussion by being insulting to other posters. Also you can look back in history and get many examples to support many things. There are still cultures today where the women rule. Also history began when the world began. Look at Celtic or Viking cultures and you will see that woman had much more power.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, just as everyone has their own wants and needs. Some take part in BDSM for sexual needs, others make it a part of their life, and I'm sure there are many other reasons.

As another poster said, there are abused people in all walks of life. You need to protect yourself in BDSM, just as you would protect yourself in normal life.

I consider myself a feminist, but not in the modern sense. I think women and men are different, and I would rather fight for the right for a women to be able to stay at home and tend to her children, rather than fighting for women to have high ranked and paid jobs.

@ownedsubgal I find you to be very intellectual, and find your views on things very interesting. While I could never see myself in your situation, I can understand that for you it is very fulfilling.

Just as clarification, do you fight for a woman to be able to choose to stay at home and tend to her children if she so wishes, or are you fighting to get all women to stay at home and pop out babies?

Because there is a massive difference between the two, and I could certainly support you in one, but I'd honestly be rather disgusted by the other.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Y'all...I have been here since 2005. Nearly every time OSG comes around and comments on a topic, it turns into another version of the same thing. Can we *please* accept the fact that nobody here is going to change her mind? It's cool for her to believe what she believes, since she's not insisting we all believe it, too.

really. as the old saying goes, "do you."

 

[intothewoods]

Y'all...I have been here since 2005. Nearly every time OSG comes around and comments on a topic, it turns into another version of the same thing. Can we *please* accept the fact that nobody here is going to change her mind? It's cool for her to believe what she believes, since she's not insisting we all believe it, too.

No, I insist on driving you insane slowly and methodically.

SUFFER!

Oh, evopsyche bullshit. Gotcha.

If "we" were all so happy way back when, why is marriage so different now? I mean, that's rhetorical, I know the arguments there, but I have to think that Occam's Razor applies here just a bit. Look at the reaction to Rick Santorum and all of that contraception craziness. Women want to be in charge of their own bodies. I feel like the backlash wouldn't have been that strong even just in the 80s. Shit changes.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Not meaning to be harsh here, but what will you do if your owner/spouse has say a massive stroke and is no longer capable of taking care of these details? Say he is so brain damaged he cannot drive, or know what he is signing. Will you be capable of stepping up to the plate and taking care of these things? Will you be able to get credit on your own if you are facing having to do all these things as you make preparations to put him in a nursing home, despite the fact he is only 59 because you can no longer leave him alone during the day while you go to work because he might burn the house down? My marriage is not D/s, it was based on equality and was very open...and this is what my current reality is. Did we plan on it? Of course not, but it is a damn good thing I know how to care for myself out in the world as well as make the decisions that need to be made for him as he is now dying and lacks the cognitive ability to make the decisions himself.

Yeah, I am a feminist. I am a wife, a mother and a grandmother. I do the work, I deserve the same pay. End of story.

His_pet...i am very, very sorry about your current situation, and believe it or not i do admire your ability to take care of him as well as yourself. but that is you.

for the last three years we have been consumed by the mental decline of my Master's father, who was highly educated and incredibly sharp and witty. now he has no sense of time (not in hours, not in days), cannot bathe or clothe himself and swings between states of extreme paranoia and violent anger. it certainly forces you to think about many things. Daddy is much older, of course i worry. He is in superb health but still...the family history, the age factor. we've discussed such things many times. i would gratefully nurse him to the very end. but in the larger picture of finances or managing a household, no i don't have those capabilities and my Master does not desire that. thankfully there are others close to him/us who are able and willing to take those things on. but i will always be there at his feet, serving him in every possible way i can.

 

[ownedsubgal]

If "we" were all so happy way back when, why is marriage so different now?

again, happy is not and never has been the point. and yes, stuff changes. but it also stays the same.

 

[Stella_Omega]

again, happy is not and never has been the point. and yes, stuff changes. but it also stays the same.

Things that have changed do not stay the same.

This is a perennial source of woe for many people, and so they make shit up so that they can ignore reality.

 

[BiBunny]

really. as the old saying goes, "do you."

No, I insist on driving you insane slowly and methodically.

Too late. You've already been beaten to the punch on that one.

SUFFER!

NOOOOOO!!!!! *Cries*

 

[His_pet_slut]

His_pet...i am very, very sorry about your current situation, and believe it or not i do admire your ability to take care of him as well as yourself. but that is you.

for the last three years we have been consumed by the mental decline of my Master's father, who was highly educated and incredibly sharp and witty. now he has no sense of time (not in hours, not in days), cannot bathe or clothe himself and swings between states of extreme paranoia and violent anger. it certainly forces you to think about many things. Daddy is much older, of course i worry. He is in superb health but still...the family history, the age factor. we've discussed such things many times. i would gratefully nurse him to the very end. but in the larger picture of finances or managing a household, no i don't have those capabilities and my Master does not desire that. thankfully there are others close to him/us who are able and willing to take those things on. but i will always be there at his feet, serving him in every possible way i can.

Thank you. I hope things continue to work out well for you. The one thing I have learned in life is, it is unpredictable. That is why I consider it essential for anyone, female or male, to be able to support and care for themselves. We just never know what will happen.

 

[Edith_UK]

Thank you. I hope things continue to work out well for you. The one thing I have learned in life is, it is unpredictable. That is why I consider it essential for anyone, female or male, to be able to support and care for themselves. We just never know what will happen.

Absolutely.

I'm really touched by what you've said, and my heart goes out to you. I cant imagine how exhausting, difficult and painful it must be caring for your husband after a stroke at that age

And I like your attitude about looking after yourself n all.

Got a lot of time for you, girl.

 

[Loverskitten]

Ugh soup, naps, and still feel like garbage.


Anyway, let me collect my jaw from the floor, and answer the OP question. I had more to say but, now I don't see the point.
Yes, there is misogyny in BDSM. I suppose it's easier to hide and easier to find someone to tolerate it. And also some misogynists are women.

 

[Cattypuss]

i appreciate men living as nature wired them as opposed to forcing themselves into the emasculation western society forces upon them.
.

Are you saying that men who see women as their equals are emasculated?